Feticide: A discussion/thought experiment

dollarsbill

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Most Christians, form what I can tell, believe that aborted babies go to heaven. Isn't sparing them from sin the greatest mercy?
Yes, they are much better off. But that certainly doesn't make those who kill them better off. Should we kill all babies and children so they can go to heaven?
 
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mdancin4theLord

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Paradoxum said



"I understand that you find this an uncompromising issue, so I would like to say that in that case you shouldn't have an abortion, but it should be other peoples right to do the wrong thing if they so wish. But of course you will think that is murder and therefore shouldn't be choice. To which I will reply that it isn't a person because it has no consciousness, you will say it has a soul: stalemate."

But logically how could it ever be compromised if you give the unborn personhood?

I have a question for ya. If you were to set up a society from scratch…what rules would you put in place so that this community had boundaries and were able to live harmoniously? Could you name a few? How would you protect the innocent from the evil?

This country is made up of laws…that affect everyone of us. I don't like the seat belt law. I think if I want to wear one I should wear one….no one should tell me I have to do it. But it is a law that steps on our toes for the betterment of the whole. I don't like the rules in my neighborhood because we can't paint our houses the color we wish…you have to pick out of a selection of eight. I don't like the eight they picked out…but our community approved them and I am stuck. We have laws that make it a harsher sentence if your a drug dealer and you deal near a school. We have laws that prevent prostitution. We have laws that tell you what activity is normal in the bedroom. We are a nation of laws. The laws are meant to do something. So don't tell me that I would be out of line if I wanted in my society to make abortion illegal. Our laws are wishy washy on this I think I already pointed this out. They don't give the unborn personhood….yet if you hurt a pregnant woman's child in the womb whether an accident or on purpose like Scott Peterson did….you are criminally held accountable. I thought this pro-abort group here said it wasn't really a person…that it should have no rights. How do you give rights to something that isn't a person?



"Well I think it should be based on choice. Judith Jarvis Thomson makes an interesting argument that abortion is morally permissible even if the child is a person."

I think she is an immoral person. How someone could say this is beyond me. But hey Margaret Sanger said the same thing….and Hitler acted it out. Don't tell me you agree with her…….sigh.



"I don't know the history of 'Roe...' very well, but how did they get abortions before that? Was it legal? I think if we went back to having abortion illegal then more people would have illegal and possibly dangerous ones because abortion is now part of the culture. It's something people expect."

Well Roe was based on a lie. She was never gang raped. She was coaxed into testifying that this happened. So SCOTUS wanted it legal only for the hard cases like this. But today you don't need a hard case to get one…its on demand and now almost the majority of women in the country get abortions…and will get multiple ones during their lifetimes.

If it was illegal…more babies would be saved…and that is a good thing for those who are pro-life. Yes just like slavery in the South. It was the norm…and things changed didn't it? Based on what you just said….we should never have gay marriage…because it has never been legal. People expect marriage to be between one man and one woman. Am I right? Or are you just using your bias on what should be legal and what should not?



"Well I'm ok with drugs being legal, or at least the relatively safe ones. Taking drugs obviously shouldn't be promoted though, just as smoking or drinking is promoted."

Why not all drugs? I might like a drug that you want illegal. Why should you have the right to tell me what I can take into my own body? And why do you have the right to tell me I can't sell what I bought to someone who owns their own body? If you don't want to use this drug you don't want illegal…then don't use it but don't tell me I can't?

Do you get my point in all this? You could apply the "I own my own body you have no right to enslave me to your morals" to anything. Safe should not come into play at all. People do unsafe things all the time…look at race car drivers, circus high flyers, sky-divers, mountain climbing…etc.

Smoking is not promoted anymore. People are looked down on today for smoking and most places don't permit it anymore. Personally if I own an establishment it should be my choice whether or not to allow it. But then we do have rules in our country don't we? Drinking is promoted and our kids make it a game to get drunk. IMO it is much worse than drugs…how many people are killed on our roads by pot smokers?

"I think legalising prostitution and creating brothels would do a good job of this.
"

And should underaged children be able to visit them? Underaged girls can get abortions without permission…..so should our children be able to do what they want to do without parental supervision?


"Ok, this is a bit too far. You might not want to push me too far on this issue though, as thinking about it might convince me otherwise. Sorry, I know that sounds terrible to you. I don't think that should be legal though."

Why should we not provide safe places for our children to have sex? They are gonna do it anyway aren't they? Of course I am playing devils advocate on this I think you know that. They are going to have sex anyway…they are going to experiment with drugs….so lets provide places for them to do them safe.



" Nothing personal against her, I say it considering myself. I don't know if I have seen the pictures. I'm not interested in emotional pictures though, I want the facts. Please don't think me heartless, I just don't think the way something looks always conveys the truth."

Well today she is in her second year of college and perfectly healthy. She is brilliant…and the law you want legal would give other women the right to kill at this gestational age. I find that barbaric. No one should be allowed to kill like this. I can't believe you feel the way you do. What do you feel when you look at holocaust pictures. Do you think they too should be banned? Those people didn't really go through that much did they? Its all propaganda and something to just tug at the emotions. And God forbid we do that and we are monsters. I think you get my point.


"It is because it's mind is becoming more conscious, not its size."

Ok then tell me something a newborn can do or think or say that a nine month old in the womb can't do? Can a newborn survive without help? Can a three month old survive without help? What does a newly born child do after birth that he couldn't do while in the womb a few seconds before he is born?

No the pro-abort side wants abortion illegal…when the blob of tissue starts looking human like a little tiny cute…cuddly baby.

"I admit that the look of the child can pull the heartstrings, but that isn't the reason for my position. I think personhood is found in the mind, and as the mind of the child becomes that of a person it also gains the rights of a person."

Does a braindead person lose its personhood? Does someone in a coma lose its personhood because they don't know what is going on? Should mentally handicapped people be treated less then people who think and act normally and know much more about what is going on? Hitler again ran with this…when he did what he did. So did Sanger founder of PP. She wanted a master race…of course WHITE…and thought that blacks and asians and people of color were INFERIOR. She ran with that idea and formed PP a good place for blacks to come to abort. You should read her speeches at KKK meetings.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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Yes, they are much better off. But that certainly doesn't make those who kill them better off. Should we kill all babies and children so they can go to heaven?

Those who are pro-abortion will stoop to any excuse to justify abortion.

They are better off because they MIGHT grow up in a home with problems….I mean whose family and household does not have problems?

We are better off because then the population can be controlled. China has a great idea…..abort all the girls. Sigh….

Gosh abortion will save those who might be in a car wreck, might get bad grades at school, might not win Prom Queen, might be gay, might be a Christian and God forbid we have enough of them don't we?

Abortion is great because……it gives women just one more right than it does men….it empowers them to kill the fathers child. And that is cool ladies isn't it?

Abortion is great because then the child won't get to experience the terrible life we THINK he/she might have….we have made sure of it by taking all rights to life away….they have no say do they?
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I am merciful to persons. Maybe Christians should pray for rain for those dying for lack of it. I hope you don't take this as a weak attack at you. I know theology can (attempt to?) explain why God doesn't, but abortion is hardly the most controversial and immoral thing ever.

Not to the child in the womb your not.

What is the most immoral thing there is? Of course this is your opinion…but have at it.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I was simply replying to your comments. The subject is 'Feticide' which leads to eternal Hell fire. If it upsets you then maybe you shouldn't talk about it.

You will find that if you look at your comments in this thread that you have been off topic several times. I didn't complain about it.

Everyone gets off topic at one time or another.

This is a Christian Forum….they should remember where they are.

I can not separate who I am from my faith. My faith defines who I am…and the decisions I make. They don't see the connection….I think it has to do with the Holy Spirit. OOOPs I am off topic.

I can't leave God out of anything….if He is in your heart it is impossible.
 
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Tuddrussell

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Should we kill all babies and children so they can go to heaven?

I don't beleive in heaven, as far as I know this is all there is. The only place I think that aborted fetuses go to is the trash, I still feel that is better than robbing women of the basic freedom to choose what to do with their bodies.

Pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body.

Yes, you might feel that going through an unwanted pregnancy and subjecting your body to one of the most traumatic experiences in the human condition is the right thing to do, but what gives you the right to FORCE that ideal upon others?

There are vegetarians that beleive that eating meat is murder, would you like it if they took away your right to choose what to eat?

That would be one more step towards totalitarianism.
 
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keith99

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I think all foetuses should be allowed to develop and be born, let them grow up. When they're 20 ask them if they want to be slashed to death and thrown in the trash.

That is real pro-choice.

Really? I was going to say for one individual then I realized it even severly limits that ones choice.
 
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Paradoxum

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But logically how could it ever be compromised if you give the unborn personhood?

I would point to Thomson's essay.

I have a question for ya. If you were to set up a society from scratch…what rules would you put in place so that this community had boundaries and were able to live harmoniously? Could you name a few? How would you protect the innocent from the evil?

Well the normal stuff would be illegal: murder, theft, etc. I would emphasis income equality to decrease crime. Not totally equality... some people deserve millions. Rehabilitation for those that have a chance to be rehabilitated. Harsh punishment for those that have little hope. Try to work things that might be considered immoral for good. EG: Legalise prostitution , legalise drugs (so we don't waste money on fighting it), make a safe alternative for pedophiles and try to make people think it is an illness, something to go to the doctor about.

I hope you see you see how I am working this roughly.

They don't give the unborn personhood….yet if you hurt a pregnant woman's child in the womb whether an accident or on purpose like Scott Peterson did….you are criminally held accountable. I thought this pro-abort group here said it wasn't really a person…that it should have no rights. How do you give rights to something that isn't a person?

I assume it is because it emotionally harms the woman and because if the child is born it will be a person who has been harmed.

I think she is an immoral person. How someone could say this is beyond me. But hey Margaret Sanger said the same thing….and Hitler acted it out. Don't tell me you agree with her…….sigh.

I thought all she argued for is that abortion should be legal? Not to kill all the babies.

Well Roe was based on a lie. She was never gang raped. She was coaxed into testifying that this happened. So SCOTUS wanted it legal only for the hard cases like this. But today you don't need a hard case to get one…its on demand and now almost the majority of women in the country get abortions…and will get multiple ones during their lifetimes.

I don't think people using abortion as a contraceptive is a good thing. I also wouldn't make it illegal to have multiple abortions though.

If it was illegal…more babies would be saved…and that is a good thing for those who are pro-life. Yes just like slavery in the South. It was the norm…and things changed didn't it? Based on what you just said….we should never have gay marriage…because it has never been legal. People expect marriage to be between one man and one woman. Am I right? Or are you just using your bias on what should be legal and what should not?

I'm not trying to argue that things are a certain way and therefore we shouldn't change. I'm just trying to say that changing the law would harm women. Those things didn't work in the same way. Its just one consideration.

Why not all drugs? I might like a drug that you want illegal. Why should you have the right to tell me what I can take into my own body? And why do you have the right to tell me I can't sell what I bought to someone who owns their own body? If you don't want to use this drug you don't want illegal…then don't use it but don't tell me I can't?

Well I guess with the worse drugs it could end up affecting society as a whole. The addiction is able to destroy a life and so one can't stop it if they figure out it is bad. People might start it when they are young and naive and not be able to stop. The only way it would be possible is if the age of usage was high and making there severe punishment for giving it to those under age. I would rather paint those drugs as evil though, and that is much more realistic than saying all drugs are evil.

Do you get my point in all this? You could apply the "I own my own body you have no right to enslave me to your morals" to anything. Safe should not come into play at all. People do unsafe things all the time…look at race car drivers, circus high flyers, sky-divers, mountain climbing…etc.

It is the addictive and dangerous nature of them that I have the problem with.

Smoking is not promoted anymore. People are looked down on today for smoking and most places don't permit it anymore. Personally if I own an establishment it should be my choice whether or not to allow it. But then we do have rules in our country don't we? Drinking is promoted and our kids make it a game to get drunk. IMO it is much worse than drugs…how many people are killed on our roads by pot smokers?

They could put breathalyzers in cars to make them start up.

And should underaged children be able to visit them? Underaged girls can get abortions without permission…..so should our children be able to do what they want to do without parental supervision?

No, in my opinion. They can wait a little longer. I would probably change the age of consent laws a little though. Nothing major.

Why should we not provide safe places for our children to have sex? They are gonna do it anyway aren't they?

If we teach safe sex and make contraception available then they can do it safely.

Of course I am playing devils advocate on this I think you know that.

I know ;)

They are going to have sex anyway…they are going to experiment with drugs….so lets provide places for them to do them safe.

Teach safe drug use, but don't encourage it.

Well today she is in her second year of college and perfectly healthy. She is brilliant…and the law you want legal would give other women the right to kill at this gestational age. I find that barbaric. No one should be allowed to kill like this. I can't believe you feel the way you do.

But I am sure that I could have lots of babies and bring them up well into intelligent children. Do I therefore have a duty to have lots of sex or do men have a duty to rape me if I don't fulfil my duty? From my point of view both are potential people. I could have been aborted but if that had happened they would have had a child in my place. That child doesn't exist because I live.

What do you feel when you look at holocaust pictures. Do you think they too should be banned? Those people didn't really go through that much did they? Its all propaganda and something to just tug at the emotions. And God forbid we do that and we are monsters. I think you get my point.

I think the holocaust pictures convey the facts. In fact they probably don't convey enough of the pain of the people. The sickening nature of what happened and how the people felt are moral considerations. I don't think the shape of a body is a moral consideration normally.

Ok then tell me something a newborn can do or think or say that a nine month old in the womb can't do? Can a newborn survive without help? Can a three month old survive without help? What does a newly born child do after birth that he couldn't do while in the womb a few seconds before he is born?

This isn't my view. You are talking to me, not some random pro-choicer/pro-abort. I would like to think you are talking to me and not throwing arguments at me without consider what I think. :)

No the pro-abort side wants abortion illegal…when the blob of tissue starts looking human like a little tiny cute…cuddly baby.

It does make a difference emotionally, but I don't believe it plays a big role in moral decision making.

Does a braindead person lose its personhood? Does someone in a coma lose its personhood because they don't know what is going on?

Someone who is braindead is dead and so has no personhood. Someone is a coma but has brain activity could have personhood. It could be quite a hellish existence though. It makes me sad to think about....

Should mentally handicapped people be treated less then people who think and act normally and know much more about what is going on?

They should have rights. I don't know enough to talk about this subject though.

Not to the child in the womb your not.

What is the most immoral thing there is? Of course this is your opinion…but have at it.

On a personal level: Murder, torture, enslavement. They are all high level evils.

On a worldwide scale: Absolute poverty and war.

Sorry for the length of this post.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I don't beleive in heaven, as far as I know this is all there is. The only place I think that aborted fetuses go to is the trash, I still feel that is better than robbing women of the basic freedom to choose what to do with their bodies.

Pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body.

Yes, you might feel that going through an unwanted pregnancy and subjecting your body to one of the most traumatic experiences in the human condition is the right thing to do, but what gives you the right to FORCE that ideal upon others?

There are vegetarians that beleive that eating meat is murder, would you like it if they took away your right to choose what to eat?

That would be one more step towards totalitarianism.

Wow. Don't know if I even want to tackle this post. Wow. You think childbirth and pregnancy is one of the most traumatic experiences in the human condition? It is one of the most safe natural experiences a woman can have. Certainly some women have complications…but since the beginning of time this has been part of the life process. Some women don't even know they are pregnant until half way through.

You can't argue with someone who views life like you do….as nothing. Your worldview is so far removed from someone who values and recognizes like science says…that which is in the womb is a separate human being…why bother. That someone thinks the unborn is just collateral damage and its fine to dispose of it in the trash….is such a tragic statement….I can't' comprehend what else you condone.
 
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Cabal

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Wow. Don't know if I even want to tackle this post. Wow. You think childbirth and pregnancy is one of the most traumatic experiences in the human condition? It is one of the most safe natural experiences a woman can have. Certainly some women have complications…but since the beginning of time this has been part of the life process. Some women don't even know they are pregnant until half way through.

Totally false.

While some amount of maternal death in the past was attributable to poor healthcare practices, the potential for maternal death was considerably higher in the past, and is only removed today because of our standard of medicine. It is far from the most safe natural experience someone can go through.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/72/1/241S.full

You can't argue with someone who views life like you do….as nothing. Your worldview is so far removed from someone who values and recognizes like science says…that which is in the womb is a separate human being…why bother. That someone thinks the unborn is just collateral damage and its fine to dispose of it in the trash….is such a tragic statement….

He didn't say anything about it being fine, or about it being collateral damage.

As with your insistence on calling pro-choice "pro-aborts", you may want to actually listen to what people are saying. You may also want to refamiliarise yourself with the 9th commandment.

I can't' comprehend what else you condone.

I suggest you stop speculating now.
 
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Tuddrussell

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Wow. You think childbirth and pregnancy is one of the most traumatic experiences in the human condition? It is one of the most safe natural experiences a woman can have. Certainly some women have complications…but since the beginning of time this has been part of the life process. Some women don't even know they are pregnant until half way through.

Maternal death

800px-Map3.6Maternal_Mortality_compressed.jpg


You can't argue with someone who views life like you do….as nothing. Your worldview is so far removed from someone who values and recognizes like science says…that which is in the womb is a separate human being…why bother.
To me life is everything, to you death is everything.

That someone thinks the unborn is just collateral damage and its fine to dispose of it in the trash….is such a tragic statement….
What do you think they do with it? It's bio-medical waste... No different than removed tapeworms or tumors...

I can't comprehend what else you condone.
Alternative sexualities, recreational drug use, nonstandard gender identiities, paganism, inclusive sex-ed, multi-culturalism... Basically FREEDOM.

The government, the church, hell even society shouldn't have a say in how others choose to live their lives.

As long as I am not harming you or yours, then you really have no business whatsoever involving yourself in my or anyone's affairs.
 
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