Feticide: A discussion/thought experiment

Incariol

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I was aware of your opinion already.

That's nice.

I only have to answer for myself on Judgment Day.

That's nice.

I believe he was correct.

You can believe in the Tooth Fairy, if you want.

Slaughtering the unborn is not being merciful and will be dealt with sternly on Judgment Day.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is becoming tedious how you rant about Hell rather than actually discussing the subject. How old are you? The only people I know who employ such tiresome rhetoric are adolescents with a chip on their shoulder to prove mommy and daddy's/youth pastors political beliefs. It is when the world isn't bowled over by their "My youth pastor said so!" arguments that they start resorting to "agree with me or burn in Hell!" like you are.
 
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dollarsbill

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You can believe in the Tooth Fairy, if you want.
I believe in Jesus.
This is becoming tedious how you rant about Hell rather than actually discussing the subject. How old are you? The only people I know who employ such tiresome rhetoric are adolescents with a chip on their shoulder to prove mommy and daddy's/youth pastors political beliefs. It is when the world isn't bowled over by their "My youth pastor said so!" arguments that they start resorting to "agree with me or burn in Hell!" like you are.
Actually I was quoting Jesus's comments on Hell. You'll have to take it up with Him. He talked about Hell quite a bit.
 
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Incariol

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I believe in Jesus.

Actually I was quoting Jesus's comments on Hell. You'll have to take it up with Him. He talked about Hell quite a bit.

And you aren't Jesus. You are expected to stay on topic in this forum. Either discuss the subject or go away; you are perfectly welcome to start a thread on Hell and rant away to your heart's content, but do it there, not here.
 
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dollarsbill

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And you aren't Jesus. You are expected to stay on topic in this forum. Either discuss the subject or go away; you are perfectly welcome to start a thread on Hell and rant away to your heart's content, but do it there, not here.
I was simply replying to your comments. The subject is 'Feticide' which leads to eternal Hell fire. If it upsets you then maybe you shouldn't talk about it.

You will find that if you look at your comments in this thread that you have been off topic several times. I didn't complain about it.
 
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Tuddrussell

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So why does it matter? If we want to damn ourselves to hell, that's all the better. Why should we have less freedom because of your belief?

I don't understand your need to butt in to other people's business.

Besides, aren't we given dominion over every living thing that moves upon the earth? And isn't disrespecting mothers a sin?
 
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dollarsbill

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So why does it matter? If we want to damn ourselves to hell, that's all the better. Why should we have less freedom because of your belief?
Killing the unborn 'freedom'?
I don't understand your need to butt in to other people's business.
Defending the helpless, 'butting in'? Don't you defend anyone?
Besides, aren't we given dominion over every living thing that moves upon the earth? And isn't disrespecting mothers a sin?
How about 'disrespecting' the unborn? Why is that acceptable?
 
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Tuddrussell

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Killing the unborn 'freedom'?

Yes, a mother should have more say over what happens to and with her body than some random internet person.

Defending the helpless, 'butting in'? Don't you defend anyone?
I do, when it's my business. What people do or don't do with their God given bodies is their business.

How about 'disrespecting' the unborn? Why is that acceptable?
Respect must be earned, besides your book has no direct condemnation of abortion and multiple verses that outright support killing and such. For many and varied reasons.

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
 
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yasic

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What kind of reasoning says that women who kill their unborn should be respected, and that the unborn who have never done any evil should be killed?

In case you did not hear our reasoning before, here it is in a nutshell:

The thing that is valuable in humans is the mind. If one were to somehow remove the brain/mind of a person and put it into a robot, we almost all universally agree that the conscious robot is now the new person and not the mindless though living body. It is the collective of our memories, feelings, desires, hatreds, loves, ambitions, and thoughts that makes us who we are. It is not the fact that we have blood or DNA or mussletissue or even a heartbeat.

A fetus prior to 21 weeks of age does not have complex frontal brain waves, which, with science, we have fairly conclusively found to be the mechanism that drives our mind. As such, prior to 21 weeks, a fetus does not have a mind hence lacks the item that makes us valuable as people... hence it is not a person.

If it is not a person, there is nothing wrong with surgically removing it.
 
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dollarsbill

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In case you did not hear our reasoning before, here it is in a nutshell:

The thing that is valuable in humans is the mind. If one were to somehow remove the brain/mind of a person and put it into a robot, we almost all universally agree that the conscious robot is now the new person and not the mindless though living body. It is the collective of our memories, feelings, desires, hatreds, loves, ambitions, and thoughts that makes us who we are. It is not the fact that we have blood or DNA or mussletissue or even a heartbeat.

A fetus prior to 21 weeks of age does not have complex frontal brain waves, which, with science, we have fairly conclusively found to be the mechanism that drives our mind. As such, prior to 21 weeks, a fetus does not have a mind hence lacks the item that makes us valuable as people... hence it is not a person.

If it is not a person, there is nothing wrong with surgically removing it.
And that's your opinion.
 
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Tuddrussell

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Scripture time!

Numbers 3:15-16

"Number the children of Levi by their fathers' houses, by their families; you shall number every male from a month old and above."

So Moses numbered them according to the word of the Lord, as he was commanded.

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3


"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them.

[FONT=arial,helv] So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."[/FONT]

Job 10:18-19

"Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb."
 
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Paradoxum

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Matthew 5:7
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Won't Judgment Day be interesting! I suspect the abortionists will get an eternal dose of their own medicine.

Maybe people should be able to risk their souls if they wish to.

YOUR RIGHT. There can be no comprise. We are debating this issue because some believe the fetus is a living human being and deserves personhood…and some people do not believe they are anything until born, until somewhere between who knows….its different for them all as to when the fetus automatically becomes something to save. If you believe that the unborn in the womb is a person…..how on earth does anyone think a compromise could be reached. Its ludicrous…really. It either is a person or its not. That is why the Democratic party seeks to seat people on the Supreme Court who are pro-choice to stop Republicans from appointing someone who wants to give personhood to the unborn. Once this happens…abortion is legalized killing.

I understand that you find this an uncompromising issue, so I would like to say that in that case you shouldn't have an abortion, but it should be other peoples right to do the wrong thing if they so wish. But of course you will think that is murder and therefore shouldn't be choice. To which I will reply that it isn't a person because it has no consciousness, you will say it has a soul: stalemate.

Well those of us who are pro-life give the unborn personhood. It should start with that….a living human being and protecting it. How could we possibly reach a compromise? What do you think we should compromise on? Kill some unborns but let others live….like a lottery?

Well I think it should be based on choice. Judith Jarvis Thomson makes an interesting argument that abortion is morally permissible even if the child is a person.

Even before Roe…women got safe abortions in doctors offices. That coat hanger thing rarely happened. Even Planned Parenthood stated this in their information. Should we allow abortion just because a few women might do it themselves.

I don't know the history of 'Roe...' very well, but how did they get abortions before that? Was it legal? I think if we went back to having abortion illegal then more people would have illegal and possibly dangerous ones because abortion is now part of the culture. It's something people expect.

In that case lets legalize drugs and hand out needles to our kids in school.

Well I'm ok with drugs being legal, or at least the relatively safe ones. Taking drugs obviously shouldn't be promoted though, just as smoking or drinking is promoted.

Lets provide places for them to have sex…and supervise it so there won't be rapes.

I think legalising prostitution and creating brothels would do a good job of this.

Its their bodies anyway so anything should be allowed. Even woman who want to make money from abortions…by selling fetal body parts. Its not a baby doesn't have personhood so why should this be illegal?

Ok, this is a bit too far. You might not want to push me too far on this issue though, as thinking about it might convince me otherwise. Sorry, I know that sounds terrible to you. I don't think that should be legal though.

You would have said it was legal to kill my niece who was born at one pound at 23 1/2 weeks. Have you ever seen an ultrasound at this gestational age? I can't believe you would say this…really.

Possibly. Nothing personal against her, I say it considering myself. I don't know if I have seen the pictures. I'm not interested in emotional pictures though, I want the facts. Please don't think me heartless, I just don't think the way something looks always conveys the truth.

Do you think as a baby gets bigger so does it rights? Like does a nine month old…worth less than a two year old? Does a five year old have less rights to live as a sixteen year old? Do I have more rights than you should have because I am older?

It is because it's mind is becoming more conscious, not its size.

It seems to me as the unborn grows in the womb and starts to look the part….this pulls at the heartstrings of the pro-aborts because then viability becomes a factor. Then they enslave the woman by telling her that she has no rights to her body. How logical is that?

I admit that the look of the child can pull the heartstrings, but that isn't the reason for my position. I think personhood is found in the mind, and as the mind of the child becomes that of a person it also gains the rights of a person.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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Yes it will be interesting. This is why I try to keep my judgements directed at me, not others. I don't want to be judged guilty of condemning the people I should be praying for. Scary.

So do you take the Great Commission seriously? How can one be quiet and carry this out?

We can't judge someones heart but we certainly can stand on the Word in kindness.
 
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Paradoxum

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Indeed they are able. But hopefully some will be persuaded to be merciful instead so they will receive mercy from God. That is my hope.

I am merciful to persons. Maybe Christians should pray for rain for those dying for lack of it. I hope you don't take this as a weak attack at you. I know theology can (attempt to?) explain why God doesn't, but abortion is hardly the most controversial and immoral thing ever.
 
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