Feticide: A discussion/thought experiment

Tuddrussell · Jan 24, 2012

Abortion is a contriversial issue. Let's try for a litle proactive dialogue here, instead of the usual wallbanging. I will try my best to remain unbiased, but I'm only human.

Let's imagine for a second that we are a group of lawmakers given the authority to propose a new model for how abortion is handled from a legal standpoint if we can reach something approaching consensus.

We can't redifine legal terms such as murder, nor can we do anything blatently unconstitutional. What we are trying for is the ideal way that abortion is handled, which requires compromise from both pro-lifers and pro-choicers.

The freedoms/rights/wellbeing of the mother and the fetus should be taken into account.

My proposal is to seperate the broad term ABORTION into different types, like killing is.

Let's say that Fetal Murder is defined as "The unlawful killing of a fetus without justification or excuse."

With that we need to decide just when the killing of a fetus is unlawful, what justifications or excuses are applicable, and if malicious aforethought is relevent.

1. First up is Accidental Abortion. Like say the mother falls on her stomach or unknowingly ingests something harmful to the fetus. What punishments, if any, are appropriate for this situation?

2. In situations where the life or wellbeing of the mother is in jeopardy, and abortion would resolve that issue, should it be permitted?

3. Is the mother allowed to abort in the case/s of: Rape, childhood pregnancy, contraceptive failure, likely birth defects, preexisting condition that makes pregnancy risky, or unwanted pregnancy?

4. What mitigating factors (Such as insanity, diminished capacity, or unintentionality.) should be concidered, and how should they affect the charges?

5. What punishments should mothers face for comitting Fetal Murder, or Manslaughter? Should it be equal to standard murder/mansluaghter charges?

6. Can you think of anything else that should be brought to our collective attention?

Can we please try to keep this civil? If y'all can manage that, I'll do my best to stay serious and on my best behaviour.

(No trolling, I promise!)

jayem · Jan 24, 2012

Quite a few states already have fetal homicide statutes. The language varies, but they all exempt abortion performed according the the usual medical standards, and with the consent of the mother or her surrogate. As an example, Louisiana's law defines 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree feticide:

La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.5 defines feticide as the killing of an unborn child by the act, procurement, or culpable omission of a person other than the mother of the unborn child. The offense of feticide shall not include acts which cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during any abortion to which the pregnant woman or her legal guardian has consented or which was performed in an emergency. Nor shall the offense of feticide include acts which are committed pursuant to usual and customary standards of medical practice during diagnostic testing or therapeutic treatment.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.6 (2006) defines first degree feticide as the killing of an unborn child when the offender has a specific intent to kill or to inflict great bodily harm, and includes the killing of an unborn child when the offender is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of aggravated rape, forcible rape, aggravated arson, aggravated burglary, aggravated escape, armed robbery, first degree robbery, second degree robbery, cruelty to juveniles, second degree cruelty to juveniles, terrorism, or simple robbery, even though he has no intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.7 (1989) defines second degree feticide as the killing of an unborn child which would be first degree feticide, but the offense is committed in sudden passion or heat of blood immediately caused by provocation of the mother of the unborn child sufficient to deprive an average person of his self control and cool reflection; and is defined as feticide committed without any intent to cause death or great bodily harm.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:2 (7), (11) defines "person" as a human being from the moment of fertilization and implantation and also includes a body of persons, whether incorporated or not. "Unborn child" means any individual of the human species from fertilization and implantation until birth.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.8 (2006, 2008) defines third degree feticide as the killing of an unborn child by criminal negligence; and is defined as the killing of an unborn child caused proximately or caused directly by an offender engaged in the operation of, or in actual physical control of, any motor vehicle, aircraft, watercraft, or other means of conveyance whether or not the offender had the intent to cause death or great bodily harm whenever specified conditions occur and such conditions were a contributing factor to the killing. (2008 SB 382)
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 32.414(B)(1) was amended by 2010 La. Acts, P.A. 403 to allow the suspension of a driver's license for 24 months of any person who is convicted of committing third degree feticide as defined in § 14:32.8. (2010 HB 1231)

There's a starting point for what's already on the books.

Fetal Homicide State Laws

Paradoxum · Jan 24, 2012

Tuddrussell said:
What we are trying for is the ideal way that abortion is handled, which requires compromise from both pro-lifers and pro-choicers.

The ideal way to handle it doesn't involve compromise. The practical way perhaps does if the pro-lifers compromise too.

The freedoms/rights/wellbeing of the mother and the fetus should be taken into account.

We have to assume the fetus is a person or what? Doesn't that give pro-lifers too much to start with? Should I assume I am debating a pro-life group that can't be fully beaten, only compromised with?

1. First up is Accidental Abortion. Like say the mother falls on her stomach or unknowingly ingests something harmful to the fetus. What punishments, if any, are appropriate for this situation?

None. Accidents can't be illegal.

2. In situations where the life or wellbeing of the mother is in jeopardy, and abortion would resolve that issue, should it be permitted?

Yes. Is it were not then mothers would get illegal dangerous abortions. The fetus is killing the mother. Better it is done safely.

3. Is the mother allowed to abort in the case/s of: Rape, childhood pregnancy, contraceptive failure, likely birth defects, preexisting condition that makes pregnancy risky, or unwanted pregnancy?

Yes. I'll give it to the pro-lifers that abortion can't be done after 24 weeks

5. What punishments should mothers face for comitting Fetal Murder, or Manslaughter? Should it be equal to standard murder/mansluaghter charges?

Slap on the wrist?

Perhaps after 24 weeks there could be a fine that slowly increases as the weeks go on.

Can we please try to keep this civil? If y'all can manage that, I'll do my best to stay serious and on my best behaviour.

Sorry, I can't take arguing a wishy-washy position seriously. I'll just give this as a very basic liberal starting point.

lismore · Jan 26, 2012

I think all foetuses should be allowed to develop and be born, let them grow up. When they're 20 ask them if they want to be slashed to death and thrown in the trash.

That is real pro-choice.

1000Flames · Jan 26, 2012

lismore said:
That is real pro-choice.

No, no it is not.

dollarsbill · Jan 26, 2012

lismore said:
I think all foetuses should be allowed to develop and be born, let them grow up. When they're 20 ask them if they want to be slashed to death and thrown in the trash.

That is real pro-choice.

Matthew 5:7
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Won't Judgment Day be interesting! I suspect the abortionists will get an eternal dose of their own medicine.

The Nihilist · Jan 26, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Matthew 5:7
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Won't Judgment Day be interesting! I suspect the abortionists will get an eternal dose of their own medicine.

I suppose that depends on whether it's real or not

mdancin4theLord · Jan 26, 2012

How can one compromise if they believe abortion is killing a living human being? There can simply be no ethical or moral compromise. Abortion kills a living human being. Science states that this is true.

Now on another note. I am a Christian so I believe what the scriptures say about life particularly about moral issues. I can not compromise something God tells me is wrong and is sin. Could we compromise about rape? Incest? Pedophelia?

Abortion is morally wrongin Gods eyes. He would be outraged to see His flock defend the rights of a mother against that which she did not create but which God created.

So for meno compromise whatsoever.

The Nihilist · Jan 26, 2012

lismore said:
I think all foetuses should be allowed to develop and be born, let them grow up. When they're 20 ask them if they want to be slashed to death and thrown in the trash.

That is real pro-choice.

If I'd have known that I'd have to move as many times as I have, I'd have chosen getting aborted. Really, if you have to move all your possessions and settle back in to a new home more than about 5 times, then nothing you can do will make life have been worth the trouble.

The Nihilist · Jan 26, 2012

mdancin4theLord said:
How can one compromise if they believe abortion is killing a living human being? There can simply be no ethical or moral compromise.

This is true. This is why people must mature enough to learn that abortion does not kill a living human. No, science does not teach this, and if your god has a problem with it, then let him speak for himself.

Daniel25 · Jan 26, 2012

delete...

mdancin4theLord · Jan 26, 2012

Paradoxum said

"The ideal way to handle it doesn't involve compromise. The practical way perhaps does if the pro-lifers compromise too."

YOUR RIGHT. There can be no comprise. We are debating this issue because some believe the fetus is a living human being and deserves personhoodand some people do not believe they are anything until born, until somewhere between who knows.its different for them all as to when the fetus automatically becomes something to save. If you believe that the unborn in the womb is a person..how on earth does anyone think a compromise could be reached. Its ludicrousreally. It either is a person or its not. That is why the Democratic party seeks to seat people on the Supreme Court who are pro-choice to stop Republicans from appointing someone who wants to give personhood to the unborn. Once this happensabortion is legalized killing.

"We have to assume the fetus is a person or what? Doesn't that give pro-lifers too much to start with? Should I assume I am debating a pro-life group that can't be fully beaten, only compromised with?"

Well those of us who are pro-life give the unborn personhood. It should start with that.a living human being and protecting it. How could we possibly reach a compromise? What do you think we should compromise on? Kill some unborns but let others live.like a lottery?

" Is it were not then mothers would get illegal dangerous abortions. The fetus is killing the mother. Better it is done safely."

Even before Roewomen got safe abortions in doctors offices. That coat hanger thing rarely happened. Even Planned Parenthood stated this in their information. Should we allow abortion just because a few women might do it themselves. In that case lets legalize drugs and hand out needles to our kids in school. Lets provide places for them to have sexand supervise it so there won't be rapes. Its their bodies anyway so anything should be allowed. Even woman who want to make money from abortionsby selling fetal body parts. Its not a baby doesn't have personhood so why should this be illegal?

"Yes. I'll give it to the pro-lifers that abortion can't be done after 24 weeks

"

You would have said it was legal to kill my niece who was born at one pound at 23 1/2 weeks. Have you ever seen an ultrasound at this gestational age? I can't believe you would say thisreally.

"Perhaps after 24 weeks there could be a fine that slowly increases as the weeks go on."

Do you think as a baby gets bigger so does it rights? Like does a nine month oldworth less than a two year old? Does a five year old have less rights to live as a sixteen year old? Do I have more rights than you should have because I am older?

It seems to me as the unborn grows in the womb and starts to look the part.this pulls at the heartstrings of the pro-aborts because then viability becomes a factor. Then they enslave the woman by telling her that she has no rights to her body. How logical is that?

mdancin4theLord · Jan 26, 2012

The Nihilist said:
This is true. This is why people must mature enough to learn that abortion does not kill a living human. No, science does not teach this, and if your god has a problem with it, then let him speak for himself.

You obviously do not read what science says about this issue. From conception the time the sperm meets eggit is a newly created human being.

This has nothing to do with maturity. I child could understand what science says. I don't know why so many adults have this problem. I think they are so pro-abortion that whatever science says.just does not matter.

It is sad that you probably believe that any woman should be able to kill even at nine months.am I right?

Cant wait for this answer.

znr · Jan 26, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Matthew 5:7
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Won't Judgment Day be interesting! I suspect the abortionists will get an eternal dose of their own medicine.

Yes it will be interesting. This is why I try to keep my judgements directed at me, not others. I don't want to be judged guilty of condemning the people I should be praying for. Scary.

dollarsbill · Jan 26, 2012

zeener said:
Yes it will be interesting. This is why I try to keep my judgements directed at me, not others. I don't want to be judged guilty of condemning the people I should be praying for. Scary.

They judge themselves by murdering the unborn.

znr · Jan 26, 2012

dollarsbill said:
They judge themselves by murdering the unborn.

We're told in scripture that if we hate our brother we've murdered. We're told to pray for one another without ceasing. But we're not told to judge each other without ceasing. Shouldn't we be spending more time praying for people who sin than condemning them since we're all capable of committing sins?

OP, sorry, I think I've somehow hijacked your thread. My apologies.

dollarsbill · Jan 26, 2012

The Nihilist said:
This is true. This is why people must mature enough to learn that abortion does not kill a living human.

And that's your opinion.

No, science does not teach this, and if your god has a problem with it, then let him speak for himself.

He does have a problem with abortion, and He's giving abortionists an opportunity to repent before it's too late. Isn't He wonderful?

Tuddrussell · Jan 26, 2012

mdancin4theLord said:
Could we compromise about rape? Incest? Pedophelia?

Yes could we? Seeing as how all three could lead to pregnancy...

mdancin4theLord said:
Abortion is morally wrong…in Gods eyes. He would be outraged to see His flock defend the rights of a mother against that which she did not create but which God created.

"As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.” (Ecclesiastes 11:5)

Jeremiah 20:14-18

"Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.

Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.

And let that man be as the cities which the Lord overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;

Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.

Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?"

The Nihilist · Jan 26, 2012

mdancin4theLord said:
You obviously do not read what science says about this issue. From conception the time the sperm meets eggit is a newly created human being.

mdancin, while I have seen enough of what you have to say to know that a lengthy, well thought out post would be a waste of time, I will say this: the question of what constitutes a human being is a question of philosophy, rather than of science. Therefore, science doesn't argue that abortion kills a human. QED.

The Nihilist · Jan 26, 2012

dollarsbill said:
And that's your opinion.

He does have a problem with abortion, and He's giving abortionists an opportunity to repent before it's too late. Isn't He wonderful?

Let's not confuse our facts with our opinions. A fetus isn't a living person if the concept of personhood is to mean anything at all. This is a fact. Whether your god is wonderful or even exists at all is a matter of opinion.

Feticide: A discussion/thought experiment

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