Does lack of religion make people immoral?

Gath

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No, it certainly doesn't. You can obviously list references to the USSR and China to say atheism is bad, but there are good countries that are predominantly atheist as well. And one can talk about the crusades and inquisition to talk about how religion is bad, but religion causes many good things as well.

So there is good and bad on both sides, but no real difference in morality between the two.
 
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Cabal

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No, it certainly doesn't. You can obviously list references to the USSR and China to say atheism is bad, but there are good countries that are predominantly atheist as well.

Good countries that are predominantly atheist... and also doing far better by most of the metrics posited here than those countries containing a large number of people insisting they're religious.
 
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BleedingHeart

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You know I never thought of it the way you put it here...the fact that we all are hypocritical because we can never be what He is.
I believe however ......that what I have observed on this forum in the short time I have been here...is that there are a lot of atheists here debating for whatever the reason especially in moral issues. I think they are all seekers.......or they would not be here. Why would people who reject God, in fact state that there is no God...spend most their time talking about Him to people who love Him? To convert and change us? I don't think so. I think it is deeper than that.

So it is my prayer that God will change hearts here on Christian forums.

1. And here is Mdancing, swinging and missing as always. The your entire post is based on the premise that if someone is arguing with you than they secretly agree with you. It doesn't occur to Mdancing that all the atheists here might legitimately think that she's completely wrong.

"Why would people who reject God, in fact state that there is no God...spend most their time talking about Him to people who love Him?"

2. Most of our time? I guess you have the daily schedule of all atheists who post here.

"To convert and change us? I don't think so."

3. Why don't you think so? Doesn't a theist argue with a atheist in order to get him to follow their religion? Doesn't a capitalist want a communist to convert into a capitalist. Don't Democrats and Republicans argue with the hope of getting converts? Why isn't the most obvious reason for someone arguing with you (they think you are wrong) the one you accept?

4. "I think it is deeper than that."
Right....I've seen this argument before. I call it the argument from apathy. It's a theist saying to an atheist, "Well...if I am wrong, then why are you bothering to tell me that I'm wrong. It must be because you secretly think I am right! Ah-ha!"

Which is why I gave up being a Christian at 15. There was ZERO evidence, and there was the added bonus of never being lumped with people who have made some of the WORST arguments in human history in "defense" of their beliefs.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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The problem in 'communist' Russia and China, as well as certain religious states, is not belief or the lack thereof.
The problem is dogmatism.
Once you start thinking that one idea is true no matter what and hush all dissenting voices; that's when you run into trouble.
Our societies have evolved a lot in the last hundred years, not to mention the last two thousand, but a dogmatic society is essentially in stasis and cannot evolve, which means that it is doomed to fail.
I try to be respectful to the people I meet.
Not so when it comes to ideas.
Ideas should be criticised and attacked from all angles, and if they fail to stand up to scrutiny, they should perish like the failures they are.

And for those who think faith is a requirement for being moral:
I'll be happy to compare my country of birth, Norway, with ANY religiously run country in the world, on anything we can find statistics and facts for, be it healthcare, education, crime and violence, freedom of speech, sex equality or whatever you like.

And to the OP: The Vatican State is not a real country. ;)


I have been to Norway and it is beautiful....but cold and expensive. Like any country it is not perfect. I love animals and I know that that most countries have made whaling illegal. Not in Norway unfortunately. I think its barbaric. Norway too has its serial killers. I think there are also problems with drugs and alcohol from what I have read. But then what country does not avoid those problems. Also with prostitution...

A report from the Council of Europe's narcotics-monitoring Pompidou Group says Oslo is first among 42 European cities in seizures and deaths caused by drugs. Oslo had 115 such deaths last year, down from a peak of 134 in 1998, but still the highest on the Continent. In Norway as a whole, the toll is rising, with 338 deaths in 2001, up from 75 in 1990.

In Scenic Norway, a Death Scene of Addiction - NYTimes.com

AFP: Fewer prostitutes, but conditions worsen after new law in Norway

It is a beautiful country however.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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BleedingHeart said,
" And here is Mdancing, swinging and missing as always. The your entire post is based on the premise that if someone is arguing with you than they secretly agree with you. It doesn't occur to Mdancing that all the atheists here might legitimately think that she's completely wrong."



That is your opinion. One can still seek….even if you disagree with someone.



"2. Most of our time? I guess you have the daily schedule of all atheists who post here."

I find it odd that so many spend this much time talking about something they reject with people who believe sorry. What is the motive in that? You never answered the question.

"To convert and change us? I don't think so."

I am not here to change anyone. Again I thought it was a Christian Forum…so shocked that huge group are atheists.

"3. Why don't you think so? Doesn't a theist argue with a atheist in order to get him to follow their religion? Doesn't a capitalist want a communist to convert into a capitalist. Don't Democrats and Republicans argue with the hope of getting converts? Why isn't the most obvious reason for someone arguing with you (they think you are wrong) the one you accept?"


I don't look at it as arguing. I present my worldview and why I believe. Are you here to argue?


"4. "I think it is deeper than that."
Right....I've seen this argument before. I call it the argument from apathy. It's a theist saying to an atheist, "Well...if I am wrong, then why are you bothering to tell me that I'm wrong. It must be because you secretly think I am right! Ah-ha!""

I dont agree with this…because I believe the worldviews are totally opposite. We do and we believe what our hearts tell us to believe. Your decisions are based on what you think is right and wrong…and mine on what God says. Mine are strict yours are not. Mine are non negotiable….your are and can change.
Two totally different world views…and lifestyles. I believe you are wrong. But I am not going to spend a lifetime trying to convince you that you are. I am not responsible for your salvation or what happens to you. You are here on what is called a CHRISTIAN FORUM. I just don't get why unless its YOU who want to change my mind about the God I believe in. Aren't you content enough to allow Christians and other people of faith to just believe? Do you also attack Muslims and Buddhists and Jews? Or is this just a war against Christians because you once claim you were a Christian?

"Which is why I gave up being a Christian at 15. There was ZERO evidence, and there was the added bonus of never being lumped with people who have made some of the WORST arguments in human history in "defense" of their beliefs."

WEll that was your choice. Why haven't you let it go? You are still here arguing as you call it with something you reject. It makes no sense really. I believe there is evidence and so do the majority of mankind on the planet who do believe in God. Your the one in the minority.


You say you were a Christian…would you mind explain what that entailed for you? Why do you say you were a Christian? Was it in name only or did you accept Christ as your personal Savior?
 
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CabVet

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You say you were a Christian…would you mind explain what that entailed for you? Why do you say you were a Christian? Was it in name only or did you accept Christ as your personal Savior?

The question was not directed to me, but I will answer anyways since you are implying he was never a "real Christian". I was a Christian, a real one, accepted Christ, went up front, they prayed for me, I went to church every Sunday, came very close to being baptized. Then I started seeing double standards, EVERYWHERE.

Don't judge (unless the person you are judging is "wrong").

Help the poor (but only if they are Christians).

Love your enemies (unless they are terrorists).

Hate the sin, love the sinner (unless the sinner is gay).

Thou shalt not kill (unless the person you are killing is a convicted criminal).

Everyone is free to practice their religion (but only really if they are Christians).

He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone (yet I saw people throwing stones every day).

Want me to keep going?
 
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mdancin4theLord

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CabVet said
"The question was not directed to me, but I will answer anyways since you are implying he was never a "real Christian". I was a Christian, a real one, accepted Christ, went up front, they prayed for me, I went to church every Sunday, came very close to being baptized. Then I started seeing double standards, EVERYWHERE."

I am not saying that he was a Christian or was not. But a lot of people pretend…and a lot of people don't really know what a Christian is because they do not know scripture. Going to church does not make one a Christian, nor does being baptized or taking the sacraments or doing good deeds. Anyone can do those..but there must be a conversion…that involves the heart. At this time the Holy Spirit enters the person. This is scriptural not something I am making up. We must look to what Jesus said about this issue. I would invite you to read about what Jesus said.


Don't judge (unless the person you are judging is "wrong").

We are allowed to judge but not someones heart. We could not survive if we did not judge people and situation.


Help the poor (but only if they are Christians).

I help nonChristians. I tithe to the church and we are big on missions. I support two little children from Somalia through World Vision. I have no clue what faith they are. I donate to a few more organizations that help everyone…not just believers. We are called….no commanded to love even our enemies. It should not matter what faith someone is…for us to help them. I think Christians are pretty giving people for the most part.


Love your enemies (unless they are terrorists).

Yes love our enemies just like Christ did on the cross. He was hated and still is all over the world. He is mocked and spit on…and demeaned. This place is evidence that..that is true.


Hate the sin, love the sinner (unless the sinner is gay).

This is why I question people who says things like this. You don't know scripture if you think Jesus said to hate. Jesus did not say to hate gays. He said sex outside marriage was sin, that marriage was between one man and one woman. He said that sex between two of the same sex was sin. You can disagree with what someone is doing and still love them.


Thou shalt not kill (unless the person you are killing is a convicted criminal).


Do you think God believes that Christians should just roll over and play dead….not protect their families or themselves? Ya know it wouldn't matter what I say here really….you don't know scripture and nothing I say will matter.



"Everyone is free to practice their religion (but only really if they are Christians)."

Are you forced in America to worship God? ARe Christians forcing you to believe in their Jesus? Where on earth are Christians killing people because they are not Christian? In America you can worship a rock if you want too. Its in the Middle East that you are forced. I am shocked you don't know much about world religions. Why the hate for Christianity?

"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone (yet I saw people throwing stones every day)."

Jesus said to judge with righteous judgement. We are forbidden to judge someones heart but we can judge words and actions.


"Want me to keep going?"

Listen you are here on a Christian Forum….you have the freedom to voice your opinion or say anything you want if you follow the rules. If you want to keep going you certainly do not need my permission. LOL
I love talking about Christ….so anytime I can witness or discuss Him…..hey I'm there. So by all means keep going.
 
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Cabal

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I have been to Norway and it is beautiful....but cold and expensive. Like any country it is not perfect. I love animals and I know that that most countries have made whaling illegal. Not in Norway unfortunately. I think its barbaric.

Incorrect.

It's actually tasty.

MMMMMMMMMMMM

Lunch in Narvik = win.
 
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mentalkitty789

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Atheist countries like the former Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China have starved literally millions of people to death intentionally and they have some harsh legal rules against private citizens. It seems like such places have less morality to them than places such as Vatican City which is highly religious.
Do you know how the Dark Ages were, the witch hunts, the crusades, the Inquisition? Even in today's world there are militant christians shooting abortion doctors, and Muslim extremists blowing themselves up.
The problem is too much faith, and a dangerous doctrine. The problem with the Soviet Union was they were trying to force people to lose their faith, and Stalin was rather paranoid. They were too firmly rooted in their way of thinking and not allowing others to peacefully exist with them.
The problem isn't religion, but what causes the problem is something religions encourage, unflinching faith.
At least that is what has come from all of my wasted time thinking.
 
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Cabal

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BleedingHeart said,

That is your opinion. One can still seek….even if you disagree with someone.

But it does not imply that they definitely are seeking, which is the mistake you were making.

I find it odd that so many spend this much time talking about something they reject with people who believe sorry. What is the motive in that? You never answered the question.

Huddling for safety among people who agree with you is for the religious.

Does this mean then that the Christians witnessing on atheist message boards are secretly yearning to be atheist? Or do you not apply your logic that way round?

I am not here to change anyone. Again I thought it was a Christian Forum…so shocked that huge group are atheists.

Too bad, get over it. We're not going anywhere.

Consider it a good thing. Your beliefs will be exposed to more scrutiny here among atheists than they would be otherwise.

I don't look at it as arguing. I present my worldview and why I believe. Are you here to argue?

Anyone who has seen your behaviour on an abortion-themed thread will know how false this is.

I dont agree with this…because I believe the worldviews are totally opposite. We do and we believe what our hearts tell us to believe. Your decisions are based on what you think is right and wrong…and mine on what God says. Mine are strict yours are not. Mine are non negotiable….your are and can change.

Which will always make yours weaker.

Two totally different world views…and lifestyles. I believe you are wrong. But I am not going to spend a lifetime trying to convince you that you are. I am not responsible for your salvation or what happens to you.

Yes, you are. Every Christian shares in the responsibility. It's called the great commission.

You are here on what is called a CHRISTIAN FORUM. I just don't get why unless its YOU who want to change my mind about the God I believe in. Aren't you content enough to allow Christians and other people of faith to just believe? Do you also attack Muslims and Buddhists and Jews? Or is this just a war against Christians because you once claim you were a Christian?

No, it's because Christians are the most predominant religion in the west.

WEll that was your choice. Why haven't you let it go? You are still here arguing as you call it with something you reject. It makes no sense really. I believe there is evidence and so do the majority of mankind on the planet who do believe in God. Your the one in the minority.

Irrelevant.

You say you were a Christian…would you mind explain what that entailed for you? Why do you say you were a Christian? Was it in name only or did you accept Christ as your personal Savior?

Most people who were Christian did that. Stop looking for loopholes and accept the fact that more and more people are discarding your beliefs as wrong.
 
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Jarofthoughts

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I have been to Norway and it is beautiful....but cold and expensive. Like any country it is not perfect. I love animals and I know that that most countries have made whaling illegal. Not in Norway unfortunately. I think its barbaric. Norway too has its serial killers. I think there are also problems with drugs and alcohol from what I have read. But then what country does not avoid those problems. Also with prostitution...

I think both the US and various Asian countries have been plagued to a much higher degree when it comes to serial killers. In general, murder is a very rare occurrence in Norway, but I'll be happy to swap statistics with you and compare with the US if you like. ;)
Whether one thinks whaling is bad or not is a matter of personal opinion more than anything else. Personally I have no problem with it as long as it is not done in a way that threatens the species and unduly disrupts the ecosystem.
The statistics I've seen on alcohol and drug abuse puts the US on par with Norway, and while every country have these problems to some degree, I would like to point out that I do not see recreational use of alcohol and milder narcotics (such as marijuana) as a problem as long as it is not done to excess.
Likewise I have no problem with legalizing prostitution as long as it is done properly to avoid abusive situations. In fact, I think legalizing it would in many cases reduce the incidents of abuse.

I will, however, agree that these might be subjects of dispute.

That being said, Norway has the US beat on just about everything else, so it would seem the lack of religiosity in Norway is not a factor that has had much of a negative impact, and an argument could be made that it has in fact been beneficial.
 
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