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Lindas Place

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I believe it is you who must fully read that passage..."every branch that does not bear fruit will be cut off". If anyone does not bear the fruit of the Spirit, they will be cut of by the LORD, no exceptions.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
it isn't the branch which produces the Fruit, the branch is just a stick that bears the vine
 
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Lindas Place

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But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
God is Love.

My command is this:
Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15: 12

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 1 Peter 1:22

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

It (Love) is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13: 5

Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs. Proverbs 10:12

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Colossians 3:13

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:32

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20
 
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Lion King

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they relied on their work

Matthew 7
15 Watch out for false prophets.

Matthew 7
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Matthew 7
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 9:31-33

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

You forget one thing, we are not saved by faith alone. Even Judas Iscariot had faith that raised the dead, healed the sick and drove out demons but was not ultimately saved.

What do you believe will happen to a person that loves the LORD, but do not do the same to their neighbour?
 
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Lion King

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God is Love.

My command is this:
Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15: 12

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 1 Peter 1:22

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

It (Love) is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13: 5

Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs. Proverbs 10:12

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Colossians 3:13

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:32

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20

Yes, God is indeed LOVE.:clap:
 
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Lindas Place

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Yes, but the fruit still needs to be shown on the branch, otherwise it will be cut off.
Well, if the vine, Jesus, can't or won't produce it... we sure can't. Since we know He can and will, let's praise HIM for that, as well as saving sinners.... God is good.
 
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Rick Otto

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An ambiguity is at work here.
And it lies between our identity & destiny as an individual & our identity & destiny as a group. Not all individuals in the group share the same destiny.
It connects with the veracity of our profession of faith.
Faith motivates these ordained good works, not fear of loss or loathing of destruction because love is also a fruit of His indwelling, not of our "free" will, which was doomed until He had mercy.
Branches cut off & thrown in the fire is more likely in harmony with this passage:
1Cor.3

  1. [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
  2. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
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Well I do not see any reason why anyone is in heaven now.

Finish this sentence for me: "To be absent from the body ___________".

Christ Jesus only says he will raise us up at the last day repeatedly in scripture.
And the prophets also speak of this, Dan 12:12

Yes, Jesus says He will raise us bodily. That doesn't mean that when we die, God does not receive our spirit, like Stephen.

Anyway, I won't talk about that in this thread as to not derail it from its original purpose ;)

It's bad form to bring something up and then, when somebody calls you on it, to just say, "Well, that's not the topic of this thread". If it's not the topic, then why did you bring it up?
 
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Lion King

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An ambiguity is at work here.
And it lies between our identity & destiny as an individual & our identity & destiny as a group. Not all individuals in the group share the same destiny.
It connects with the veracity of our profession of faith.
Faith motivates these ordained good works, not fear of loss or loathing of destruction because love is also a fruit of His indwelling, not of our "free" will, which was doomed until He had mercy.
Branches cut off & thrown in the fire is more likely in harmony with this passage:
1Cor.3

  1. [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
  2. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rick, do you believe that a person who does not bear any fruit of the Holy-Spirit will be ultimately saved in the end?
 
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Lion King

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Well, if the vine, Jesus, can't or won't produce it... we sure can't. Since we know He can and will, let's praise HIM for that, as well as saving sinners.... God is good.

It's not because the vine can't or won't produce any fruit, but rather:

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5

2 000 years later, the message still remains the same: Remain Jesus and you will be saved. It's a promise!:thumbsup:
 
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Rick Otto

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Rick, do you believe that a person who does not bear any fruit of the Holy-Spirit will be ultimately saved in the end?
I believe people who are ultimately saved in the end are so from the moment they are reborn spiritualy. Sheep get lost, but they get found, maybe after death they must suffer the 'burning of their works', but they are still saved as the scripture pointed out. We the living don't get to witness that, we only get to see the works they did that were only good for burning.
Goats on the other hand may aquire sheepskins & learn to bleat like a lamb, but even if they put on a convincing (to us)act all the way to their graves, they don't fool Jesus.
 
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Lion King

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I believe people who are ultimately saved in the end are so from the moment they are reborn spiritualy. Sheep get lost, but they get found, maybe after death they must suffer the 'burning of their works', but they are still saved as the scripture pointed out. We the living don't get to witness that, we only get to see the works they did that were only good for burning.
Goats on the other hand may aquire sheepskins & learn to bleat like a lamb, but even if they put on a convincing (to us)act all the way to their graves, they don't fool Jesus.

I dunno about that, but I believe that's a pretty dangerous doctrine to hold brother. You only need to read the parable of the prodigal son to understand a son is only saved if they return to the Father...

“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. Ezekiel 18:24-27
 
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I said rewarded, but it actually says
"Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

I fully believe 100% in my own faith. But I almost discarded it, know why? Because it was too difficult. Will you tell me I didn't have full faith?

Is your faith in your faith or in Jesus Christ?

It is not ‘our’ faith that saves us, but God’s grace and His grace alone.

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The grace of God gives us the gift of faith to believe in His grace.

Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
 
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Rick, do you believe that a person who does not bear any fruit of the Holy-Spirit will be ultimately saved in the end?

Well, fruit (and the type of fruit) is the evidence for us to know who is a true believer and who is not. The Lord knows who are His, but we do not know without that evidence.

The absence of any fruit leaves us not knowing who are His and who are not His.

When you quote John 15, you have to remember (Rom 11) that all who are Israel belonged to the promised inheritance, by 'birth right'
If the lump is holy and the roots are holy, then so are the branches. Those natural branches were 'broken off' because of unbelief. Obviously not believing they would not produce the fruit.

So who else would not be producing any fruit?

Do you plant a seed in the ground and immediately expect to see fruit?
What of those who have just been pruned, would you see them with fruit?
Do we not all have some barren seasons?

I would suggest that when you read the exhortations, warnings and encouraging's by the apostles in the epistles, that many were still young in their faith, and/or the writer did not know them personally to know if they had the fruit.

We cannot be presumptuous and expect that everyone who has named the name of the Lord, and professed the good confession, has actually truly believed.
[FONT=&quot]Unless or until we see evidence, we need to keep exhorting, and encouraging and warning. [/FONT]
 
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Lindas Place

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You forget one thing, we are not saved by faith alone. Even Judas Iscariot had faith that raised the dead, healed the sick and drove out demons but was not ultimately saved.

What do you believe will happen to a person that loves the LORD, but do not do the same to their neighbour?
We are saved by grace. Judas never believed, in fact, Judas had already left when the disciples finally believed... as for love, no one loves like Jesus loves, thats why He died for our sins... anything that is not love is sin... we all sin.



Judas had already left to betray Jesus (John 13:30)
If the disciples obey; the Holy Spirit will be with them FOREVER (John 14:16)
Jesus promises not to leave the disciples as orphans (John 14:18)
The disciples must (believe) in Jesus; the true vine. (John 15:1)
The disciples must remained in Jesus and His Word (John 15:7)
Jesus will send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26)
Jesus tells the disciples it is for their good that He going is away (John 16:7)
Jesus tells the disciples He will send the Holy Spirit (John 16:7)

The disciples believed at last! (John 16:31)

The disciples had obeyed the word (John 17:6-7)

Jesus was crucified (John 19)
Jesus was resurrected (John 20:1)
The disciples received the Holy Spirit(John 20:22.)
 
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Lindas Place

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It's not because the vine can't or won't produce any fruit, but rather:

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5

2 000 years later, the message still remains the same: Remain Jesus and you will be saved. It's a promise!:thumbsup:
read on.. the disciples did remain and they did receive the Holy Spirit FOREVER as the scriptures say... though today we don't have to remain until the Holy Spirit comes as they did until after Jesus was crucified.... we recieve the Spirit FOREVER the moment we believe.... in context this is more assurance that we are eternally secure.
 
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Lion King

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We are saved by grace. Judas never believed, in fact, Judas had already left when the disciples finally believed...

Judas Iscariot never believed? Tell me, how was he able to raise the dead, heal the sick and drive out demons?

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve

Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matthew 10:1-8


as for love, no one loves like Jesus loves, thats why He died for our sins... anything that is not love is sin... we all sin.

Tell me, would Jesus Christ give us a command we are unable to keep?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35
 
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Lindas Place

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Judas Iscariot never believed? Tell me, how was he able to raise the dead, heal the sick and drive out demons?

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve

Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matthew 10:1-8



Tell me, would Jesus Christ give us a command we are unable to keep?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35
I just show you the scriptures that clearly show when they believed and Judas was already gone... read the whole book of John or at least the scripture I post....

Jesus is God... If we kept God's commandments, then there was no need for Jesus to die... He would have simply said keep them.... no need for a Savior....
 
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Lion King

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read on.. the disciples did remain and they did receive the Holy Spirit FOREVER as the scriptures say... though today we don't have to remain until the Holy Spirit comes as they did until after Jesus was crucified.... we recieve the Spirit FOREVER the moment we believe.... in context this is more assurance that we are eternally secure.

Peter and the other disciples believed that Jesus was indeed the Messiah way before His death. Who told them that? Tell me if you know...

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." Matthew 16:15-17
 
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Lindas Place

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Peter and the other disciples believed that Jesus was indeed the Messiah way before His death. Who told them that? Tell me if you know...

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." Matthew 16:15-17
can you see it now?


Judas had already left to betray Jesus (John 13:30)
If the disciples obey; the Holy Spirit will be with them FOREVER (John 14:16)
Jesus promises not to leave the disciples as orphans (John 14:18)
The disciples must (believe) in Jesus; the true vine. (John 15:1)
The disciples must remained in Jesus and His Word (John 15:7)
Jesus will send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26)
Jesus tells the disciples it is for their good that He going is away (John 16:7)
Jesus tells the disciples He will send the Holy Spirit (John 16:7)
The disciples believed at last!
(John 16:31)
The disciples had obeyed the word (John 17:6-7)
Jesus was crucified (John 19)
Jesus was resurrected (John 20:1)
The disciples received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22.)
 
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