You were posting that Elijah came back after his chariot trip.. but it was Elisha.. the mix-up is what I was pointing out.Easy G (G²);59616687 said:
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Did Enoch and or Elijah receive the promise?
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On the isssue, what needed to be mentioned before was that one sees in 2 Chronicles 21:1 that Jehoram, the son of Jehosaphat, reigned in Jerusalem in the stead of his father. Jehosaphat was dead, but Elisha was the prophet of the Lord that Jehosaphat had consulted concerning the war with Moab. Thus, by this time in 2Chronicles 21, Elijah had already taken his chariot ride into the heavens which had to have occurred before Jehosaphats death. Additionally, Jehoram the son of Ahab referred to in 2Kings 3:1 with whom Jehosaphat was allied is not the same Jehoram mentioned here in 2Chronicles 21:1. This Jehoram was king of Judah and son of Jehosaphat. He did not walk in the ways of his father but in the ways of the kings of Israel, for he had married Ahabs daughter and led Judah astray (2Chronicles 21:4-6).
When considering that context, it is interesting to note how 2Chronicles 21:12 shows that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah, rebuking him for walking in the way of the kings of Israel.
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The "Left Behind" sage/series always showed them being gunned down...
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You guys have to many mystic, Gnostic, and Pagan thoughts to deal with. The fact that I have to keep repeating myself means that you are not listening to me. There is no Hell, that is a falsehood. Not all messengers are from heaven. The Two Witnesses, Michael, and the one given the Morning Star, are not from heaven. The "ELECT" of God are those who wait for life immortal from Yahwah. There is no such thing as angels, that is a Pagan belief. Jude 1:9 is a Gnostic insertion. 
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If we agree that Moses and Elijah are dead, then the body is dead without the spirit; so it is already written, faith is dead without works. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
We know the "body of Christ" ascended.....
Christ appeared to James before Pharisee Paul, then to all of the other apostles....
We know Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind, we know the carnal body can not live in space. This is why astronauts wear a "space suit" when they travel to the moon......
Pharisee Paul says "we all shall be changed"....
Of course Paul also mentions many types of flesh or bodies; fish, humans, animals, birds, celestial bodies, terestial bodies.....
The sun, and stars have celestial bodies that allows them to shine in outer space for the whole galaxy to see.....
However, the earth is terrestrial (possessing water).....
1 Cor 15:40; 50
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
We know Christ has a spiritual body.....
My friends, I want you to know that our bodies of flesh and blood will decay. This means that they cannot share in God's kingdom, which lasts forever.
Remember what James says "the body is dead without the spirit"....
Luke 23
45 The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn down the middle. 46 Then Jesus shouted, “Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!” And with those words he breathed his last.
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There is no indication is scripture that Elijah or Enoch are not alive. They maybe on another planet that is inhabitable, but they are not dead by any indication in scripture.
Even the scripture that "Jesus is the first of the resurrection" is in pre-eminance and not in fact. For it is by faith, God raised the dead before He proved His right to.
Even the scripture that "Jesus is the first of the resurrection" is in pre-eminance and not in fact. For it is by faith, God raised the dead before He proved His right to.
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Could we please go back even further to the original point.
If John 3:13 tells us that no man has ascended to heaven but he who came down from heaven. How can we believe Enoch and Elijah was taken there?
Is it possible that God loved and respected Enoch so much for walking before Him as the first real example of a man walking in righteousness that He translated Enoch to another place so He would not be murdered by those who hated the message that Enoch bought from God?
The scriptures say, Enoch walked with God, not walks with God. Enoch walked with God 300 years, not a moment longer.
Food for thought maybe?
Could it be similar in the case of Elijah. God had to remove him to fulfill certain criteria as we know, but could he also have been taken in a similar way.
Notice in the very beginning when God created the heavens between the dome over the earth, isn't there 2 heavens He speaks of? The sky and His heavenly realm?
Could it be possible Elijah was taken up into the heavens (sky) by a whirlwind and taken or translated as Enoch was?
Just a thought.
Muzza
If John 3:13 tells us that no man has ascended to heaven but he who came down from heaven. How can we believe Enoch and Elijah was taken there?
Is it possible that God loved and respected Enoch so much for walking before Him as the first real example of a man walking in righteousness that He translated Enoch to another place so He would not be murdered by those who hated the message that Enoch bought from God?
The scriptures say, Enoch walked with God, not walks with God. Enoch walked with God 300 years, not a moment longer.
Food for thought maybe?
Could it be similar in the case of Elijah. God had to remove him to fulfill certain criteria as we know, but could he also have been taken in a similar way.
Notice in the very beginning when God created the heavens between the dome over the earth, isn't there 2 heavens He speaks of? The sky and His heavenly realm?
Could it be possible Elijah was taken up into the heavens (sky) by a whirlwind and taken or translated as Enoch was?
Just a thought.
Muzza
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pat34lee
Messianic
There is no way that either is alive today, going by scripture. Adam's fall caused man's lifespan to be limited to 1k years. Then, after the flood, the lifespan was further shortened to 120 years. No exceptions or exemptions were given.
The difference between Yahusha's resurrection and all others before him, is that he did not die again. His body was changed as ours will be when he returns.
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By faith, I believe scripture on Elijah leaving earth on a fiery chariot, and on Enoch walking with God and was not because God took him. I believe that there was a dispute over Mses' body and God won and now Moses is with his best friend.
"It is appointed unto men once to die!" can be cancelled at the Lord's discretionary decision. Adam was not appointed to die until he sinned. So it is that the reversal is also true. God can at His choosing remove the death appointment. 1 Thes. 4:17, "all who are alive (in CHRIST) at his coming" are changed, reveals that point.
"It is appointed unto men once to die!" can be cancelled at the Lord's discretionary decision. Adam was not appointed to die until he sinned. So it is that the reversal is also true. God can at His choosing remove the death appointment. 1 Thes. 4:17, "all who are alive (in CHRIST) at his coming" are changed, reveals that point.
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This is a very good article, I will mention a few exceptions.
With respect to the vision, we know a vision is not a reality as pointed out in the article. We also know the disciples just came out of a trance, which means they may not have been fully conscious. Luke wrote this gospel account using the narrative voice. To presume that Moses, Elijah, and Enoch are alive creates several problems:
1) So how does Luke know what Moses and Elijah are talking about; when their specific words are not quoted? If this vision was suppose to be taken literally, why would Moses and Elijah words not be in quotes; especially when they a great figures in scripture?
2) How did Peter "immediately" recognize them, when they never met them before? Moses and Elijah lived many years before Yeshua's disciples were even born. Yeshua never introduces them to his disciples as Moses and Elijah. This gives cause for Yeshua instruction to them "tell no man" until after his death. This special event is not supposed to be used to build doctrine.
3) We know that Enoch died as the article points out refering to hebrews 11. May be the scriptures are saying that Enoch did not "taste" or "see" death. David says "taste" and "see" that the Lord is good! Death must have a certain undesirable "taste" or "sight" to it; maybe the "sting of death" was taken away from Enoch because he pleased Yahweh.
1 Cor 15
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
4) Now we know a hornet's sting can be very painful or even deadly; yet the sting of death is sin; the strength of sin is the law. Man is only subject to the law while he is still alive. For this cause every man must die, but every man has not felt the hornet's painful sting.
5) Have you ever felt a painful bee sting? Yet certain bees can only sting once; then it dies. Would we fear a hornet if it had lost it's venomous sting?
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I would not call what the disciples came out of as a trance... That is like saying that they were suffering some kind of hypnotism in which they were not in control of what they thought they saw,.. The way I see their experience is that is was not a vision like someone has a dream, because those who were in the visual area all saw the same thing. I believe it was as real as real can be, and the best they could do is say it was like a vision.. let's face it.. out world is not like His World.. and the comparison is not even fair...
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So why those two particular people and not Enoch? Here is the way I see it. Moses represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just. Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ’s second coming, and who will be
It is a prophetic belief, and the apostles questioned him afterwards, that Elijah has come to announce the Messiah’s reign, and that the Kingdom of the Son of David, Yeshua was about to be set up on the earth.
Let's face it, no matter how many times Yeshua was telling them that He came to die and be resurrected, they didn't want to hear it. Yeshua probably wanted them to have something to hold on to so that they would not entirely cast away their confidence in Him. At the transfiguration, I believe God sent Moses and Elijah to talk with Yeshua concerning the near future of suffering and death. Instead of choosing angels to converse with His Son, I believe God chose those who had themselves experienced the trials of earth, to bring comfort. They, more than any other leaders, knew both the troubles, trials, and tribulation, plus the added bonus of what believers of the world had to gain, even them, if He went through this. You could almost hear Moses again suggesting that wiping humanity all out and starting over with another batch being set aside as not the solution.
Yeshua was clothed with the light of heaven, as He will appear when He shall come
The Saviour’s promise to the disciples was now fulfilled they got to see Him in His Glory. It was something He prayed for.
Upon the mount the future kingdom of glory was represented in this small short glimpse..
Let's face it the disciples couldn't comprehend the scene. I am sure that they were wowwed by the fact that their Rabbi was so highly honored by heaven at the moment of transfiguration. The voice of God had been heard at the baptism of Yeshua at the beginning of His ministry, and again at His transfiguration on the mount. Now at the close of His ministry it was heard for the third time, by a larger number of persons, and under peculiar circumstances. But they also probably thought that Moses and Elijah came there to protect Him.
It is a prophetic belief, and the apostles questioned him afterwards, that Elijah has come to announce the Messiah’s reign, and that the Kingdom of the Son of David, Yeshua was about to be set up on the earth.
The faith of the disciples was probably greatly strengthened at the transfiguration experience, I know mine would be, when they were permitted to behold Christ’s glory and to hear the voice from heaven testifying to His divine character. God chose to give these followers of Yeshua the strong proof that He was the promised Messiah, so that in their bitter sorrow and disappointment over His crucifixion doesn't completely throw them off.
Let's face it, no matter how many times Yeshua was telling them that He came to die and be resurrected, they didn't want to hear it. Yeshua probably wanted them to have something to hold on to so that they would not entirely cast away their confidence in Him. At the transfiguration, I believe God sent Moses and Elijah to talk with Yeshua concerning the near future of suffering and death. Instead of choosing angels to converse with His Son, I believe God chose those who had themselves experienced the trials of earth, to bring comfort. They, more than any other leaders, knew both the troubles, trials, and tribulation, plus the added bonus of what believers of the world had to gain, even them, if He went through this. You could almost hear Moses again suggesting that wiping humanity all out and starting over with another batch being set aside as not the solution.
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Please consider this.
I think it was during the time of the jewish king, Jehoram, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king!The contents of the letter are found in II Chronicles 21:12-15. In part it reads: "Because thou hast not walked in the ways of . . . thy father . . . but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel . . . and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better that thyself . . . thou shalt have great sickness by disease."
From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as future. Two years after the king became diseased, the king died (843 BC)—having reigned only eight short years (II Chron. 21:18-20).
This proves that the letter was written in the fifth year after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwindGod used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father—and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosaphat.The letter he had others deliver was recognized as his—proving that he was known to be alive someplace.
Just how much longer he lived, the Bible does not reveal. But in that "it is appointed unto men once to die"—Elijah must have died somewhat later. See Hebrews 9:27. All human beings born of Adam, and that includes Elijah, must die—for we read: "In Adam all die" (I Corinthians 15:22). Elijah was a man "subject to like passions as we are" (James 5:17)—subject to human nature and death! Elijah the prophet, being mortal flesh as we are, died.
He is certainly one of the "prophets" (Hebrews 11:32) who died in faith not yet having received the promise (verses 13 and 39).Was Elijah not mortal, subject to death, and after being lifted into the atmospheric heavens, spent the remaining years of his life at some unidentified location on the earth, living as every human being, before he naturally died?
I think it was during the time of the jewish king, Jehoram, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king!The contents of the letter are found in II Chronicles 21:12-15. In part it reads: "Because thou hast not walked in the ways of . . . thy father . . . but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel . . . and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better that thyself . . . thou shalt have great sickness by disease."
From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as future. Two years after the king became diseased, the king died (843 BC)—having reigned only eight short years (II Chron. 21:18-20).
This proves that the letter was written in the fifth year after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwindGod used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father—and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosaphat.The letter he had others deliver was recognized as his—proving that he was known to be alive someplace.
Just how much longer he lived, the Bible does not reveal. But in that "it is appointed unto men once to die"—Elijah must have died somewhat later. See Hebrews 9:27. All human beings born of Adam, and that includes Elijah, must die—for we read: "In Adam all die" (I Corinthians 15:22). Elijah was a man "subject to like passions as we are" (James 5:17)—subject to human nature and death! Elijah the prophet, being mortal flesh as we are, died.
He is certainly one of the "prophets" (Hebrews 11:32) who died in faith not yet having received the promise (verses 13 and 39).Was Elijah not mortal, subject to death, and after being lifted into the atmospheric heavens, spent the remaining years of his life at some unidentified location on the earth, living as every human being, before he naturally died?
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One more thing please.I am over at the supposedly spirit filled Charismatic section, I don't particularly like being there because quite frankly my views are either met with heavy silence or open hostility.
To which I give you an example below from another link full of contention, not the link I'm speaking to you about now.
Quite a struggle of opinion before this and then...
But your arguments fail completely for the millions upon millions of Christians with whom God does have a relationship, even though they do not follow the laws which you think are so important. Perhaps from your perspective you can imagine that a Law-breakers such as myself cannot possibly have a relationship with God. And you can excuse or ignore everything I say in the light of your own "Gnosis". However, thankfully for me, you are not in control of God so I really don't have to worry too much what you think!
To which my simple reply to that was, as I believe as it should be...
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Honestly, and this might sound stange but somehow I feel I should be there, for whatever reason. I certainly dont wish to cause trouble, it just seems to locate me like an angry bee.
Would you mind just slipping over to this link for a quick look called God's rest which was asked a simple question, what does God's rest mean to you?I talked about my love for the sabbath and why.
Please also check my words to see if I am correct, and then if you have the inclination meet me back here (I certainly would not like to draw you into any disagreements) and tell me what your opinions are.
You see, I am alone and you are the closest to me, except for the only other person I met there by the name of Tsadnik. Good man indeed.Hope I'm not being a bother, just some Brotherly or Sisterly advice would be most appreciated.
Not sure if this link works but the thread is called Gods rest.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7629307-new/
To which I give you an example below from another link full of contention, not the link I'm speaking to you about now.
Quite a struggle of opinion before this and then...
But your arguments fail completely for the millions upon millions of Christians with whom God does have a relationship, even though they do not follow the laws which you think are so important. Perhaps from your perspective you can imagine that a Law-breakers such as myself cannot possibly have a relationship with God. And you can excuse or ignore everything I say in the light of your own "Gnosis". However, thankfully for me, you are not in control of God so I really don't have to worry too much what you think!
To which my simple reply to that was, as I believe as it should be...
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Honestly, and this might sound stange but somehow I feel I should be there, for whatever reason. I certainly dont wish to cause trouble, it just seems to locate me like an angry bee.
Would you mind just slipping over to this link for a quick look called God's rest which was asked a simple question, what does God's rest mean to you?I talked about my love for the sabbath and why.
Please also check my words to see if I am correct, and then if you have the inclination meet me back here (I certainly would not like to draw you into any disagreements) and tell me what your opinions are.
You see, I am alone and you are the closest to me, except for the only other person I met there by the name of Tsadnik. Good man indeed.Hope I'm not being a bother, just some Brotherly or Sisterly advice would be most appreciated.
Not sure if this link works but the thread is called Gods rest.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7629307-new/
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
I came out of charismatic and word of faith some 17+ years ago and have no desire to ever ever even visit that line of thinking again. I cannot, even for curiosity's sake, go there. No desire whatsoever. They don't want the truth if it hurts their views, and it does hurt what they are comfortable with.
I've enjoyed your posts and find no problem in them, but just remember, to teach and debate you need to be a member of the faith group. It may be the Lord is calling you now to make a decision?
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Yes, I also was once there, however I was called away, and I'm so grateful for that. That way of thinking is just to weak, wishy washy and easy to be the correct path. But, I'm sorry, I dont understand what you mean by being a member of a faith group? And the decision He is telling me to make?
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