The real star of Bethlehem

razeontherock · Jan 16, 2012

Has anybody seen this series?

The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt. 5 - YouTube

This is part of 5, of like an 8 part series. This is where it gets interesting, but the earlier parts show background of why this individual is doing this.

So what about Rosh HaShannah? Is that a likely date of Jesus' conception?

Part 7 shows his idea of Good Friday

Henaynei · Jan 16, 2012

Using scripture detailing the courses of the priestly families and their divisions set up by David in their turns of service in the Temple; the fact of to which family and course Zachariah belonged and when he would have completed his course and returned to Elizabeth for her to conceive; the fact that she was 6 months pregnant when Mary visited her, herself pregnant... Brings Messiah's conception to during Khanukah - with the Light entering the world, and His birth during Sukkot - coming to Tabernacle/dwell with us.

visionary · Jan 16, 2012

still my all time favorite bible study on when Yeshua was born.. What day was Jesus born?

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2012

razeontherock said:
Has anybody seen this series?

This is part of 5, of like an 8 part series. This is where it gets interesting, but the earlier parts show background of why this individual is doing this.

So what about Rosh HaShannah? Is that a likely date of Jesus' conception?

Part 7 shows his idea of Good Friday

Hi razeontherock,

I personally subscribe to a similar account as the one to which you linked. Several years ago, there was a power point presentation imbedded in an article that tracked the first set of conjunctions mentioned in the Youtube presentation here. It can be found here:Wondering about the "Star of Wonder" - Technology & science - Science - Mysteries of the Universe - msnbc.com. That bit of info led me down a different path than what my Messianic brothers and sisters had been investigating.

I won't bother you with the whole story as to how I was led to this, but part of it has to do with this scripture:

Exo_23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Since Messiah walked Torah perfectly, it made sense that He taught His disciples the same, especially about this verse. Because the Jews brought the Babylonian month names with them upon their return.

So anyway, when reading these verses:

Luk 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
Luk 1:25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

...it has always been understood that the next two verses:

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

...referred to the sixth month as in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. But I believe that Luke, following in the instruction given to the disciples eschewed the use of the Babylonian month names in favor of the ancient method of saying, 'the fifth month, the sixth month, etc. In fact, later the text reveals that it was also the sixth month with Elizabeth's here:

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

I can see how anyone might take this as a confirmation that the 'sixth month' that was found earlier in this chapter was indeed the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. But it could just as easily mean the sixth month of the year as given in Exodus. If so, that puts us squarely in the season of teshuvah, which the text seems to support here:

Luk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

This is the only instance in the NT of this particular phrase found. In the Greek lexicon, it indicates that the phrase used could indicate any period of time up to and including years. However, it is consistent with the idea of a season such as teshuvah.

It was during this time of the year that the people would fast, pray and do good works, in order to prepare themselves for the fall feast, especially the Day of Atonement. So it seems a fitting time for Gabriel to visit the maiden Mary.

In Leviticus 23, we are told of the 'Apponted Times', such as the Passover. They are described as His Appointed Times. So it comes as no surprise that the Messiah prophetically fulfilled the Passover, Unleavened Bread and the Day of Firstfruits giving the phrase 'His Appointed Times' new meaning to many.

So it follows that if Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit in order to conceive Messiah, it too would happen on one of 'His Appointed Times'. The next Appointed Time from the sixth month is the first day of the seventh month, the Feast of Trumpets, Yom Teruah. And following the Hebrew calendar and the star chart in the article, that would put Pentecost (Shavuaot) exactly 280 days later. If that number sounds familiar to some of you, it is the normal length of a human pregnancy.

Anyway, this viewpoint that I offered concurs with the author's video. I hope that you find it useful.

Blessings,

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2012

visionary said:
still my all time favorite bible study on when Yeshua was born.. What day was Jesus born?

Hey Vis, it is an interesting one too. But when you think about it, there is five times a year when Zechariah would have been in the Temple. But even determining when he was there gives no indication as to when Elisabeth conceived.

I have a different thought on why Zechariah was identified by priestly course. It was his familial designation as well. Zechariah was a popular name. This would have been the natural way to describe which 'Zechariah the priest' that Luke was describing. Sound plausible?

visionary · Jan 16, 2012

Teshuvah is the Hebrew word assigned to the 40 days preceding Yom Kippur, the Day of the Covering or Atonement. Originally, it only comprised the 10 days between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (Days of Awe). So if Rosh Hashana [Sept/Oct] is the impregnation of Mary.. that would end up being a May/June birth.. which doesn't fall into any period of the appointed time of the Lord.

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2012

visionary said:
Teshuvah is the Hebrew word assigned to the 40 days preceding Yom Kippur, the Day of the Covering or Atonement. Originally, it only comprised the 10 days between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (Days of Awe). So if Rosh Hashana [Sept/Oct] is the impregnation of Mary.. that would end up being a May/June birth.. which doesn't fall into any period of the appointed time of the Lord.

Au contraire mon cheri! Pretend that Pesach falls in april. Now count off fifty-something days. You end up somewhere in June. Shavuot, the anniversary of the Word being given Moshe to come down and be with man; it turns out to be the very day the Word was made flesh to come down and dwell with man. Hmmm...

visionary · Jan 16, 2012

talmidim said:
Au contraire mon cheri! Pretend that Pesach falls in april. Now count off fifty-something days. You end up somewhere in June. Shavuot, the anniversary of the Word being given Moshe to come down and be with man; it turns out to be the very day the Word was made flesh to come down and dwell with man. Hmmm...

Now I see..

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2012

visionary said:
Now I see..

Even better, it falls in the place of the shamash if you envision the Menorah as representative of Messiah. Which it does when you look at the fourth Moed and the fourth Temple furnishing. When aligned with the first seven words of scripture, the shamash aligns with the fourth word, the Hebrew word Aleph-Tav. Sweet, huh? :amen:

visionary · Jan 16, 2012

talmidim said:
Even better, it falls in the place of the shamash if you envision the Menorah as representative of Messiah. Which it does when you look at the fourth Moed and the fourth Temple furnishing. When aligned with the first seven words of scripture, the shamash aligns with the fourth word, the Hebrew word Aleph-Tav. Sweet, huh?

Yeah.. but I liked.. He tabernacled with us..

yedida · Jan 16, 2012

I've liked the Shavu'ot birth for awhile now. It just seems to work sooooo very well.

razeontherock · Jan 19, 2012

talmidim said:
Hi razeontherock,

I personally subscribe to a similar account as the one to which you linked. Several years ago, there was a power point presentation imbedded in an article that tracked the first set of conjunctions mentioned in the Youtube presentation here. It can be found here:Wondering about the "Star of Wonder" - Technology & science - Science - Mysteries of the Universe - msnbc.com. That bit of info led me down a different path than what my Messianic brothers and sisters had been investigating.

I won't bother you with the whole story as to how I was led to this, but part of it has to do with this scripture:Since Messiah walked Torah perfectly, it made sense that He taught His disciples the same, especially about this verse. Because the Jews brought the Babylonian month names with them upon their return.

So anyway, when reading these verses:...it has always been understood that the next two verses:...referred to the sixth month as in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. But I believe that Luke, following in the instruction given to the disciples eschewed the use of the Babylonian month names in favor of the ancient method of saying, 'the fifth month, the sixth month, etc. In fact, later the text reveals that it was also the sixth month with Elizabeth's here:I can see how anyone might take this as a confirmation that the 'sixth month' that was found earlier in this chapter was indeed the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. But it could just as easily mean the sixth month of the year as given in Exodus. If so, that puts us squarely in the season of teshuvah, which the text seems to support here:This is the only instance in the NT of this particular phrase found. In the Greek lexicon, it indicates that the phrase used could indicate any period of time up to and including years. However, it is consistent with the idea of a season such as teshuvah.

It was during this time of the year that the people would fast, pray and do good works, in order to prepare themselves for the fall feast, especially the Day of Atonement. So it seems a fitting time for Gabriel to visit the maiden Mary.

In Leviticus 23, we are told of the 'Apponted Times', such as the Passover. They are described as His Appointed Times. So it comes as no surprise that the Messiah prophetically fulfilled the Passover, Unleavened Bread and the Day of Firstfruits giving the phrase 'His Appointed Times' new meaning to many.

So it follows that if Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit in order to conceive Messiah, it too would happen on one of 'His Appointed Times'. The next Appointed Time from the sixth month is the first day of the seventh month, the Feast of Trumpets, Yom Teruah. And following the Hebrew calendar and the star chart in the article, that would put Pentecost (Shavuaot) exactly 280 days later. If that number sounds familiar to some of you, it is the normal length of a human pregnancy.

Anyway, this viewpoint that I offered concurs with the author's video. I hope that you find it useful.

Blessings,

Interesting! Every one of these points, were things that "lept within me" when I first read those Scriptures, as a child. Not that I knew what they meant, but I did know that I didn't know what they meant ... (despite the words themselves being very simple)

Thanks for sharing your perspective!

razeontherock · Jan 19, 2012

talmidim said:
Even better, it falls in the place of the shamash if you envision the Menorah as representative of Messiah. Which it does when you look at the fourth Moed and the fourth Temple furnishing. When aligned with the first seven words of scripture, the shamash aligns with the fourth word, the Hebrew word Aleph-Tav. Sweet, huh?

Our G-d is so amazing :bow:

razeontherock · Jan 19, 2012

yedida said:
I've liked the Shavu'ot birth for awhile now. It just seems to work sooooo very well.

Day? Month? And how does this compare to Rosh Hashana?

:sorry:

Yahudim · Jan 19, 2012

razeontherock said:
Day? Month? And how does this compare to Rosh Hashana?

The 4th or middle Feast. According to the star chart it would have fallen on June 17th, 2 BCE. Rosh Hashanah is actually Yom Teruah, the 5th Appointed Time.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 19, 2012

razeontherock said:
Has anybody seen this series?

The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt. 5 - YouTube

This is part of 5, of like an 8 part series. This is where it gets interesting, but the earlier parts show background of why this individual is doing this.

So what about Rosh HaShannah? Is that a likely date of Jesus' conception?

Part 7 shows his idea of Good Friday

Matthew 2:8-10/

Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.

There are alot of people that say that the Star Joseph and Mary followed was actually an angel...and when seeing some of the ways the text describes the wisemen following the star continually and the star moving and then stopping, it seems to make more sense (IMHO) than saying it was an actual star that came about. Angels were already referred to as stars ( Job 38:6-8 /, Revelation 1:19-20 , Revelation 12:3-5/ ).

If interested, as there are other in-depth studies that addressed such, one can go to Star of Bethlehem and Star of Bethlehem I

For more, as said here:

The true identity of the star is revealed by clues in Matthew's Gospel.

Matthew 2:9
When they [the wise men] had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Notice three things.

The interjection "lo" marks the moment when, to their great surprise and wonderment, the star reappeared to guide the wise men on their way. The placement of "lo" in the narrative shows that they sighted the star immediately after they departed from Jerusalem.

2.) In Greek, the verb tense in the statement, "The star . . . went before them," is imperfect. A more precise translation would be, "The star . . . was going before them," indicating that the star was in motion ahead of them as they traveled south from Jerusalem

3.)The place pointed out by the star is not said to be the village of Bethlehem, but the very place where the child dwelt. The magi needed no help to find the village of His birth, since the learned men of Jerusalem had already named that village, and no doubt Herod had told the magi how to get there, or perhaps had furnished guides. The magi needed help only to determine which child in Bethlehem was the one they were seeking.

It is obvious that no celestial body could perform the feats attributed to Christ's natal star. No celestial body moves through the heavens at the pace of travelers on the ground, and no celestial body ever moves south along the celestial meridian. Moreover, if the star moving ahead of the magi had been a celestial body, it would have kept to the south and led them beyond Bethlehem (2). Finally, the position of a celestial body cannot be used to locate an object the size of a human dwelling.

For these reasons a legion of commentators ancient and modern have believed that the star was a supernatural visitation of some sort (3). One reasonable possibility is that the star was an angel, perhaps Gabriel, manifesting himself as a point of brilliant light in the distant sky.

The magi would likely have called him a star even if they perceived that he was closer than the other stars of heaven. In Scripture, a star often figuratively designates an angel. For example,

Revelation 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Just as an angelic star once pointed to the lowly but godly origins of the Christ, so an angelic star will point to the infernal origins of the Antichrist. The message blazoned on the sky by these stars past and future can be understood only by wise men.

Footnotes

John A. Broadus, Commentary on Matthew, originally, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1886; repr., Grand Rapids, Mich.: Kregel Publications, 1990), 20.
Ibid., 17.
Ibid., 17; Chrysostom Homily 6.3; James Morison, A Practical Commentary on the Gospel according to St. Matthew, new ed., revised (n.p., 1884; repr., Minneapolis: Klock & Klock Christian Publishers, 1981), 14; R. C. H. Lenski, The Interpretation of St. Matthew's Gospel (Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1961), 60; Charles R. Erdman, The Gospel of Matthew: An Exposition (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1966), 34; J. W. Shepard, The Christ of the Gospels: An Exegetical Study (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1939), 39-40; J. Dwight Pentecost, The Words and Works of Jesus Christ: A Study of the Life of Christ (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan Publishing House, 1981), 67.

As it concerns the actual date of Christ's Birth, I tend to take an Eastern point of view which seems to make a difference as well when it comes to discussing certain aspects of the Birth of Messiah. One can go here as well as here /here and here to a recent discussion I was involved in for more information on where I may stand on certain things.

Although it's possible Christ was born in Sukkot, it's just as possible that he was born in December.

This is from some of my Messianic Jewish friends/family that shared:

G

The fact of the matter is that the biblical record supports a December birthdate.

Exodus 34 tells us that the Feast of Ingathering is to be celebrated "at the turn of the year." The New Year for Israel is in September/October. Counting from the first month, the sixth month is around February/March (the angel appeared to Mary "in the sixth month.") and nine months from March is December.

.... the priests did not skip their course.

The first round of courses, due to the two days where all available priest served, the 8th course is actually the 10th week of the year beginning with Nissan 1.

I have tried to show on other forums, that accounting for these Holy Days, and the movement of days in the Hebrew calendar compared to the Gregorian calendar which can vary as much as a month from year to year, plus the alteration of the calendar of Julius Caesar to Gregorian, one can not accurately with 100% certainty, come up with the date of the birth of the Messiah.

I have calculated the variatians and if John the Baptist was conceived after the fall course, around Yom Kippur, then Jesus could have been born anytime from Succoth to December.

Calculating from the fall course of service, assuming the latest dates, Jesus would have been conceived around Passover and born in December. This actually matches a Jewish tradition that a great leader or Prophet is conceived on the same day they will later die. Jesus died on Passover, so was conceived on Passover which means a December birth.

Other issues include the fact the birthdays are not considered important in the Tenakh. If Jesus was born on Succoth as some believe, the NT never mentions it, and there is no significant relation mentioned by God concerning Succoth and Jesus birth in the NT, like other significant actions which were related to the Holy Days of the Mosaic law.

Most of the arguments for a Succoth birth, seem to stretch assumptions to make the timing fall on Succoth. Which is again, the reason it is best to give the possible range.

This is the single most common mistake of students who attempt to date the birth of Jesus based on the service of the priestly courses.

There were 24 courses of priests who served in the Temple, each serving one week until all 24 courses had served and then the rotation began again. The problem arises at the end of the year. 24 courses serving two weeks each gives a total of 48 weeks of service. However, the Jewish year is 50 weeks plus 4 days long. So on the 49th week, the rotation would begin again and the 1st course would serve the 49th week, the 2nd course the 50th week, and the 3rd course the 4 days plus three days of the next year. That would mean the 4th course would then serve the first full week of the new year, the 5th course the second week, the 6th course the third week, etc. Go ahead and get out a pencil and figure this out for yourself, you don't need to go to some website to see what someone else has to say about it, do your own calculations. It is simply not possible for the first course to serve the first week every year without violating the order in which they served.

And to prove that what I'm saying is accurate, according to Mr. Hargis' calculations, when the Temple was destroyed on the 9th Ab, the 19th course of Pethahiah should have been on duty. But according to both the Talmudic tractate Taanith (On Feasting and Fast Days, 29A) and well as Josephus who was an eyewitness to the destruction, (Wars, VI:4, 1, 5) it wasn't the 19th course as Mr. Hargi's calculations would have it but it was in fact the 1st course, that of Jehoirib that was on duty, which proves the 1st course/1st week, 2nd course/2nd week calculations are incorrect. The Jewish year consists of 6 months of 29 days and 6 months of 30 days for a total of 354 days. But 24 courses serving two weeks each would only total 48 weeks, short of filling the year by 2 weeks and 4 days. And then when an extra whole month was added to correct the calendar, it throws off the caculations even further because the priestly courses had to continue their ordering of service even during these extra weeks.

Now, having a fixed date that we know with certainty what course was serving on the 9th Ab of 70 C.E., and if we caculate backwards to the year before Jesus' birth, which is 6 B.C., we find that in fact the priestly course of Abijah was on duty from the 2nd to the 9th of October, the 23rd Elul to the 1st Tishri, or concluding on the feast of Trumpets and the beginning of the New Year.

Now bring forward all your calculations and you'll find Elizabeth's sixth month to fall between the middle of March and the middle of April (since ancient times March 25 has been observed for the annunication to Mary). Then count forward three more months and John would have been born around the middle of June (the ancient date for the feast of John's nativity is June 24). Then count forward another six months and you come to December 25 for the birth of Jesus.

So once again, the actual evidence supports the December dating.

....As Pilgrimer pointed out, we can know if we count backwards from the date of a known course serving when the temple was destroyed.

But one more time, (tried last year as well) 24 courses of priests, each serving 1 week, 2x in a year = 48 weeks. This falls short of a full year. there were still several weeks left to go before the year was finished. But the rotation of the 24 courses continued anyway. This would make for the courses not being in unison with the weeks of the year. Especially when a whole month was added to make up for the solar year, when necessary from time to time.
Make sense?

But... in the end you are correct to say, using the courses as some here do is faulty. The biggest flaw being the notion that all the priests served on the three festivals. This notion supposes a falsehood. As it implies the priests SKIPPED their courses, which is NOT the case.

Click to expand...

Gxg (G²) · Jan 19, 2012

Henaynei said:
Using scripture detailing the courses of the priestly families and their divisions set up by David in their turns of service in the Temple; the fact of to which family and course Zachariah belonged and when he would have completed his course and returned to Elizabeth for her to conceive; the fact that she was 6 months pregnant when Mary visited her, herself pregnant... Brings Messiah's conception to during Khanukah - with the Light entering the world, and His birth during Sukkot - coming to Tabernacle/dwell with us.

Wild to consider His being concieved during December and coming to birth on Sukkot, as it'd help with alot of the fighting on people saying the Birth/Conception of Christ can't be during December when the Festival of lights occurs...

There was actually an excellent review on the issue of trying to decide when the actual date of Christ's birth was...and why the church choo celebrate it on December 25th. For more, one can go online/look up the article here , as it's from - Biblical Archeology Review " ( ). I think it was a well-balanced article that contains surprises for people of varying opinions about December 25th. IMHO, I think it's the most definitive article I have yet seen on the historical basis for December 25 (or celebration in December ) in regards to the birth of Yeshua. The article can definitely serve to quell a great deal of the paganoid rhetoric we see out there this time of year...and I was glad I was able to come across it last year when looking into the ministry of Messianic Rabbi Derek Lemnan when he sought to discuss the issue.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 19, 2012

Henaynei said:
Using scripture detailing the courses of the priestly families and their divisions set up by David in their turns of service in the Temple; the fact of to which family and course Zachariah belonged and when he would have completed his course and returned to Elizabeth for her to conceive; the fact that she was 6 months pregnant when Mary visited her, herself pregnant... Brings Messiah's conception to during Khanukah - with the Light entering the world, and His birth during Sukkot - coming to Tabernacle/dwell with us.

Providence at work

yedida · Jan 20, 2012

Thanks for sharing that series Razontherock. I enjoyed the journey through the constellations and don't have a problem at all with his calculations concerning the conception and birth of Yeshua. He was on a roll till he came to the last Pesach. That's where I have to disagree. The lunar eclipse that was supposed to have taken place was amazing, but, I'm a stickler for 72 literal hours. According to his calculations it doesn't even give 2 full days in the tomb, just 2 nights (Fri and Sat) and 1 day (Sat) is all he allows for Jonah's 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale prophecy. That just doesn't fly for me. What do you think?

yedida · Jan 20, 2012

razeontherock said:
Day? Month? And how does this compare to Rosh Hashana?

What are you sorry and embarrassed for? I'm perplexed.

Been up all night on meds so day and month I couldn't tell you. (I'm not sure I could tell you that even after a good night's sleep!!) But it is believed that Moses received the Commandments on the Tablets on Shavu'ot. Sooo, we have the written Torah on one Shavu'ot and centuries later we have the Living Torah given on Shavu'ot. (But on His birth, I"m very flexible.)

The real star of Bethlehem

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Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

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