The woman caught in adultery

Mercy, do you mean Jew as in religion of Jew as genetic? They are different things you know.

yedida said:

.I'm assuming MH is going to be Matthew Henry. He doesn't seem to be the only one not MJ who is teaching and debating here. .

Click to expand...

That's Matthew Henry, Sis--and although he's not a poster (as the mods already noted per rules there's nothing wrong with referencing Non-Messianic thought), Non-Messianics are not allowed to actively debate anyhow. Matthew Henry has been dead for a LONG time to equate him as "discussing" is hilarious..as if that in any way changes what the mods noted/have warned about a good number of times

But if it's not respected, it's not respected..

Gen 12:13 “Please say you are my sister, so that it shall be well with me for your sake, and my life be spared because of you." and on to the next fiasco concerning Sarah: Gen 20:12 “And yet, she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife."
We come to the fact that a half-truth, for whatever purpose is a whole lie.
God took care of it though.

Click to expand...

Amen. The text says plainly that Abraham lied on what he said. In both cases, whether he was circumcised or uncircumcised, he lied plainly. The same lie used the first time he went to Egypt was also the same lie that he used when he met Abimelech in Genesis 20:1-3/ Genesis 20 --and in both cases, DESPITE his sin, the Lord was faithful/took care of it. Most of the talk of Abraham being deemed righteous (and therefore, somehow making his actions with the lying "righteous" ) comes from ignoring the immediate context of scripture when it comes to noting WHEN Abraham was counted as righteous. And it was specificaly in regards to Genesis 15:5-7 / Genesis 15 when the Lord promised to prosper Abraham early in his walk....and truly make him into a great nation. His stance as one who was uncircumcised mattered little since he trusted in the Lord for what he understood of the Lord's call at that point:

Romans 4:3
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
​

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[]
​

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
​

Click to expand...

His righteousness didn't come from being spotless or perfect, as Abraham made ALOT of mistakes---and only in assuming he was flawless in all respects can one really have any trouble with examining where Abraham did somethign that wasn't the best. He was righteous PRECISELY because of his great trust/faith in the Messiah despite all of his mess ups.


When Abraham lied, he was not really not trusting in God. ..and thankfully, the Lord intervened to save Abimelech from making a mistake Abraham SHOULD have warned him about. . For in reading the story, I was always under the impression that Abimelech was a non-believer. However, as seen in Genesis 20:3-6, God came to Abimelech----intervening to ensure that Abimelech does not touch Sarah. In contrast to what occurred early on in the life of Abraham in Genesis 12:10-20, this episode seems to emphasize in a variety of ways that Sarah did not have sex with the king..otherwise, Abimelech could be the father of the promised/"Covenant" son born to Sarah in Genesis 21:1-3. With Abimelech, despite the fact that Abraham was deemed in Genesis 20:7 as a prophet able to intercede on behalf of others, Abimelech rightly challenged Abraham for decieving him about the status of His wife....


In that culture, unless you were married, it was customary for kings to be able to take another wive. Sarah was saved---but had a godly king desired her for a wife and she was single, God would not have had any problem. Abraham's comment in Genesis 20:11---where he stated "I did it because there is no fear of God in this place..."---betrays both his lack of faith in God and his misjudgement of the people of Geerar. The whole episode reveals that the King and His servants were God-fearing, as seen in Genesis 20:8 and Genesis 20:16-18 when Abimelech was exceedingly gracious/generous. His generosity, on top of his innocence, contrasts sharply with Abraham's self-serving deception regarding the truth about Sarah...for the king's actions were a very public affirmation that he had not acted inappropiately toward Sarah...and thus, he was not the father of any child she had. Abraham was shown in Genesis 20:12-13 to really have been a greater sinner than Abimelech.

Some say that having multiple wives would have made Abimelech the greater sinner than Abraham....but that'd not be consistent with the text when it notes that having multiple wives wasn't always deemed "sin" in that culture--no more different than it was for David in the wives he took for himself when he desired..provided that they were single first (I Samuel 39-44, I Samuel 27:2-3, II Samuel 5:12-16, II Samuel 12:8, etc)---and the same goes for concubines (II Samuel 16:20-24, II Samuel 15:16, I Kings 1:1-4, I Kings 2:17-25, etc). In that culture, kings had that right----just as Abraham had the right to take on other wives/concubines if he so desired....as well as slaves. Interestingly enough, if discussing markets, Genesis 14 describes Abram beginning to go to war to rescue his nephew (Lot) and then brought his trained men/servants born in his house to do battle (Genesis 14:13-16).

Many of these individuals were most likely those whom he had gathered in other lands---seeing that the trading of others was common place-----for Genesis 12:5 makes clear that Abram had many had been taken/gathered in the land of Haran. Genesis 17:12 discusses the male servants whom Abram had bought with money from a foreigner....and Genesis 25:1-6 discuses how Abraham had been in the practice of gathering other women (concubines) for himself like Hagar. Those women were specifically for the purposes of sexual pleasure (I Chronicles 1:32). Reflecting on the culture of the ancient Near East, it was not unknown for men to take "second: wives...but this was usually an action of those who are wealthy. The precise status of the "second wife" could vary, depending on the nature of the relationship. She might be the maidservant of the first wife (Genesis 16:1-3, Genesis 29:24, Genesis 29:29, Genesis 30:3-9, etc). But in that culture, kings were able to get many women for many purposes.

As Abram himself was considered to be a king, the same rules he applied to others could also be said of himself...for one could easily have been in a reverse position if around his territory and thinking that he could take their single women....and if married, the same fear of being endangered may've risen up in them for their wives being taken forcibly as other corrupt kings did. However, as Abram was righteous and would not do that if knowing the person was married, there would be no need for them to fear...just as Abram had no need fearing Abimelech who was righteous. For once the king had knowledge, he could place a woman in protection. That's again what Abimelech did for Abraham, as well as Issac in Genesis 26:11 by letting His people know that anyone touching Abraham's wife was subject to death (Proverbs 6:29). Adultery was NEVER appropiate in those times....

Abraham was afraid when it came to his wife---and excused his lie. The statement was false when saying "she is my sister/ implying that she was not his wife. What Abimelech understood was thus false. Of course, its understood that others could take women and sell them to rulers...though again, righteous rulers would have to turn down those women who were already married to other men and deal sharply with men who treat women in ways akin to what happens today with human trafficking. And on the issue of "pretty", what's interesting to note is that Sarah was EXCEPTIONALLY pretty....and Abraham noted it often. In Genesis 20:12, the comment of "She is my sister" presupposes that the reader is familar with Genesis 12:11-13, which explains the rationale behind Abraham's words. Evidently Sarah looked much younger than her real age. He was fearful for his life because of Sarai's beauty----and in many ways, his selfish actions imply that he thought God was UNABLE to protect Him---despite what God had already promised Abram at the beginning of his journey (Genesis 12:1-4). Thankfully, as what happened on both occassions of his lie/ruse, God came to rescue Him when the plan backfired.

With the passage in Genesis 12:10-20, the first readers (Israel following Moses) would have seen how God kept his promises to Abram, in spite of all the threats, and in spite of the morally dubious actions even of Abram himself.



As it stands, it's interesting that the same problem Abraham had happened with his son in Genesis 26:6-26 where Abimelech was decieved again. Issac was afraid that the men in Gerar would kill him to get his beautiful wife, Rebekah...and so he lied as well in claiming that Rebekah was his sister. Evendently , he knew about the actins of his father Abraham...as parents help shape the world's future by the way they shape their children's values.

Being new to the region of Gerar, Isaac adopted the same ruse that Abraham earlier used in both Egypt and Gera

When Abimelech allowed Issac to stay in his land, he should have gone to the main man/king told the situation so that protection could be given. However, he took atters into his own hand...and when the king caught Issac sexually caressing his wife in Genesis 26:8-13, he was ticked. There was NO reason for one to decieve him as such/endanger others.

The same situation of lying leading to great danger happened with King David in I Samuel 21 when he lied to protect himself from Saul (I Samuel 21:10). Some may excuse this lie because it was war going on and it is the duty of a good soldier to decieve the enemy. But nowhere was David's lie condoned---just as it was with Abraham. In fact, the opposite is true because his lie led to the death of 85 priests (I Samuel 22:9-19), who had no idea what was going on when Saul came after them. David's small lie seemed harmless enough, but it led to tragedy. For his asking of a sword as if he was on a mission for Saul led to others thinking that the priests were supplying David against Saul in insurrection. The Bible makes very clear that lying is wrong (Leviticus 19:11)....and there was no reason for David to devieve Ahimelech the priest by implying that he (David) was on official business for the king. There's, of course, a time/place for deception---but never with those who are righteous men following the Lord should deception be done against.

With Abraham, even for the Lord who considered Abraham a friend, friends still mess up.....and being righteous/deemed righteous doesn't equate to every action one does as being "righteous"

\

He may not have told a full blown lie, but he did not tell the full truth either. It was for the purpose of deception that this was done, rather than trust God. It is what it is

Click to expand...

Amen.

Lies/falsehood are Lies/falsehood, even those that are used for good (since in the scriptures there are a number of instances where the Lord commanded his people to not give all of the story at all....and other times, righteous men/women didn't tell the truth and it was justified in the spirit of the Law of Life/love of one's neighbor. There were categories, with it being noted that to give a lie/false scenario outside of what the Lord commanded being what the Lord deemed to be sin rather than saying it was sinful for all false scenarios to be given when the protection of life occurred...more on that discussed elswhere on the subject of the many examples where piracy/stealing goods for survival and deception occurred on the parts of the Lord's approval (as seen in #1 , #2, #3, #4 , #5 , #12 , #35 , #36, #37 , and #39 ).

yedida said:

Gen 12:13 “Please say you are my sister, so that it shall be well with me for your sake, and my life be spared because of you." and on to the next fiasco concerning Sarah: Gen 20:12 “And yet, she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife."
We come to the fact that a half-truth, for whatever purpose is a whole lie.
God took care of it though



.....He may not have told a full blown lie, but he did not tell the full truth either. It was for the purpose of deception that this was done, rather than trust God. It is what it is.

Click to expand...

The scenario with Abraham was akin to him seeking to protect himself and was justly called out on it by the King for his falsehood---as He knew better than to do act unrighteously before another righteous man and endanger his entire household. All of this is even more significant in light of how God told Abimelech that Abraham was a prophet who was able to intercede on behalf of others (Genesis 20:7)......and despite Abraham's error, Abimelech was to return the woman he didn't know was married/ask Abraham to pray for him so that things would be set in order.

It is akin in many ways to God telling Abimelech "I'm sorry for my servants error---for he knows better---but he'll be expected to lift you up as you work it out so that things can be set right."


No one is being considerate when assuming without warrant. That'd be like one calling the cops on their neighbors when in a new neighborhood because of assuming they could be tempted to cheat with their spouse----even though the neighbors have shown no signs of such. Another way of seeing it would be like waging war early on with a nation/wiping them out...and then, if questioned, claiming "We didn't know if you could betray us in the future---so we decided to just kill you off to prevent the temptation."

In many ways, Abraham did not walk in the faith He was required to---though to a degree, he demonstrated faith in trusting that even if his actions were wrong, God would get him out of it just as he had before. Its sad seeing Abraham in what he did (IMHO)---and very similar to what happened with Sarai and Hagar when God already promised Him a Son in Genesis 15....yet he chose to listen to the rationale of his wife and try to force it to work. It didn't work and there were grave consequences, even though God still came through to bless her son



The scenario with Abraham was akin to him seeking to protect himself and was justly called out on it by the King for his falsehood---as He knew better than to do act unrighteously before another righteous man and endanger his entire household. All of this is even more significant in light of how God told Abimelech that Abraham was a prophet who was able to intercede on behalf of others (Genesis 20:7)......and despite Abraham's error, Abimelech was to return the woman he didn't know was married/ask Abraham to pray for him so that things would be set in order. It is akin in many ways to God telling Abimelech "I'm sorry for my servants error---for he knows better---but he'll be expected to lift you up as you work it out so that things can be set right." No one is being considerate when assuming without warrant. That'd be like one calling the cops on their neighbors when in a new neighborhood because of assuming they could be tempted to cheat with their spouse----even though the neighbors have shown no signs of such. Another way of seeing it would be like waging war early on with a nation/wiping them out...and then, if questioned, claiming "We didn't know if you could betray us in the future---so we decided to just kill you off to prevent the temptation."

In many ways, Abraham did not walk in the faith He was required to---though to a degree, he demonstrated faith in trusting that even if his actions were wrong, God would get him out of it just as he had before. Its sad seeing Abraham in what he did (IMHO)---and very similar to what happened with Sarai and Hagar when God already promised Him a Son in Genesis 15....yet he chose to listen to the rationale of his wife and try to force it to work. It didn't work and there were grave consequences, even though God still came through to bless her son.


In many ways, the faith Abraham demonstrated is a testament how the Lord can work with anyone, regardless of what level they're at in life...no matter how messed up. There was an excellent sermon series I heard recently on the subject of how often Abraham/Sarah kept falling into the same repeated sins---and for more, one can go right click here , here and click here or here for the entire series. It truly does give a differing perspective when considering how righteousness is not so much about what we do as much as trusting in the righteousness of Christ in order to become righteous...

Romans 3:12

No One Is Righteous

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[

13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[]



19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus
​

Click to expand...

.


And the Lord truly works to bring redeemption to his people and has sought to show themes of that throughout the Old Testament. The folks at | Jewish Women's Archive said it best:

yedida said:

I have a feeling that the Spirit that was all over him was sensed by this woman and there would not be a second time, ever for her to do that kind of deed. (I'm not even convinced that she was "taken in the act" anyway. Perhaps she had that reputation, but a reputation and caught in the act are two entirely different things.)

Click to expand...

Yeshua has the power to free people from the power of sin and convince them that there's a better way and higher way to righteousness in him.

~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This thread has gone through a clean up. It's quite possible a further cleaning will take place. If you notice a post of yours missing it was removed in the clean up. Please remember the following rule when posting:

Congregational Forum Restrictions

Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

Click to expand...

You can find that listed within the Christian Forums Rules / Terms of Service

Documentation of thread clean up is HERE for staff only!

~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~