So... God ALLOWS you to choose to be tortured forever?

Not to go too far off field but this is why I disagree with the Islamic view that claims that unbelief equals a lack of gratitude. As if the unbeliever "knows" God exists but is simply believing he doesn't as a personal choice despite that knowledge. That's not how belief works. If a person knew God existed they would believe God existed. The two go hand in and hand.

good brother said:

Thank you, but there is a problem of death meaning only a physical death instead of hell. Jesus came to give us life, right? And we know that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If death in that passage means only a physical death, then all believers who have gone on before us have still gone through the punishment of death. We know that Peter and Paul and Silas are not still walking around, they have all died a physical death. Paul even wrote that he was convinced that neither life nor death could separate us from the love that is in Christ Jesus. If death (physical death) cannot separate us from Jesus, how does Jesus get off saying, "Away from me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you." Jesus here is separating Himself from those who are not in Him. If it is just a physical death, there is a problem as Paul said even death could not separate us from Him. It must mean a spiritual death. Not one where the heart stops beating, but a spiritual death in the eternal separation from God.

BTW, I know that there is another thread that this exact subject is being debated. Perhaps it would be better if we kept that thread there and this one here as to not convolute this current thread.

God bless you my friend.

In Christ, GB

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OK, we can leave the discussion of hell in the other threads. Just let me say this: I agree that death can't separate us from the love of God that is in the Lord. He will return for us and remove us from death to new life.

Ishraqiyun said:

Not to go too far off field but this is why I disagree with the Islamic view that claims that unbelief equals a lack of gratitude. As if the unbeliever "knows" God exists but is simply believing he doesn't as a personal choice despite that knowledge. That's not how belief works. If a person knew God existed they would believe God existed. The two go hand in and hand.

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Have you never heard of taking the Lord's name in vain?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

Many Churches claim to know God but their doctrines of a devil deny Him.

Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate

Well, being in heaven is being one with God, and God is love. If you reject God's love and don't live your life through that love, then when you die, you'll remain separated from it. That's what I think hell really is.

when all are reconciled to God "that he may be All in all." amen

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That will be a wonderful day for sure.

agape101 said:

2nd thes. 1:6-7 "-a display of the just judging of God, to deem you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering also,if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction to those afflicting you, and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the lord Jesus...in context justice is paying affliction with affliction.... that is justice. not unending torture. and
literally it is "eonian whole-ruin" which is exactly what i believe. Those who do not receive eonian life are to experience the "whole-ruin of themselves, for a time period"

the beauty of that is, that which is wholly-ruined- can be rebuilt... and in this case will be when death is the last enemy being abolished.

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You miss the whole point of for a time period of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

Mat 13:40 As therefore the weeds are gathered and burned up in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mr 4:29 "But when the fruit is delivered, at once he sends forth for the sickle, to stand before the harvest."

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Ishraqiyun said:

Not to go too far off field but this is why I disagree with the Islamic view that claims that unbelief equals a lack of gratitude. As if the unbeliever "knows" God exists but is simply believing he doesn't as a personal choice despite that knowledge. That's not how belief works. If a person knew God existed they would believe God existed. The two go hand in and hand.

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Absolutely wrong.

Cognitive Dissonance is exactly that state of mind all too common which allows a separation between what one believes and what one knows.

That separation of differed mentalities is sources archetypally in different entities with our psyche.
So a person can know things but still just not really believe them.

Ishraqiyun said:

That will be a wonderful day for sure.

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Except it be for this terrible mental affliction of Cognitive Dissonance, that "wonderful day" is really here now, and available to all.

1) The Scientific Method has established that, externally, for us all, there is the one same Reality within which we all exist.

2) The image in our head that we construct of this Reality can be the ever-growing body of Truth which corresponds to those Facts of Life which are the evidence of Reality.

3) But, people will not believe the Truth, though they know the fact of life.

cupid dave said:

Absolutely wrong.

Cognitive Dissonance is exactly that state of mind all too common which allows a separation between what one believes and what one knows.

That separation of differed mentalities is sources archetypally in different entities with our psyche.
So a person can know things but still just not really believe them.

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That's not cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance come about from holding two conflicting ideas, beliefs or values at the same time, which creates emotional discomfort.

An example is wanting to be with a girl but realizing she doesn't want you.

The discomfort from this reality is cognitive dissonance. A resolution to the discomfort is deciding that she would probably cheat on you, so you then become relieved by the fact you are not with her, rather than upset.

This is called "adaptive preference formation." It has nothing to do with archetypes or entities.

Huram Abi said:

That's not cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance come about from holding two conflicting ideas, beliefs or values at the same time, which creates emotional discomfort.

An example is wanting to be with a girl but realizing she doesn't want you.

The discomfort from this reality is cognitive dissonance. A resolution to the discomfort is deciding that she would probably cheat on you, so you then become relieved by the fact you are not with her, rather than upset.

This is called "adaptive preference formation." It has nothing to do with archetypes or entities.

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wrong...

cupid dave said:

wrong...

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Show, don't tell.

agape101 said:

Do you think there is a difference with the "wicked" and those of us who constantly sin...? Is sinning the same as "doing evil?" i am just asking because I hope I am not rejected- although I believe in universal reconciliation there is a period of chastisement that will not be pleasant... I do not want to go there.

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Have you repented?
"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3)

Ps 139:
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

agape101 said:

sounds like a great gospel...


does anyone actually consider this reasonable? that on one hand God supposedly loves you, but on the other hand he allows those to be born that He knows will supposedly choose to be tortured in a place which he had created with the stipulations he had instated...?

Where do we stand when the pillar of our doctrine leaves no doubt that it is better to abort a fetus then give it a 50% chance of neverending torture?

my guess is that none of you really believe this garbage deep down.

or that what? God wants to see the it all play out? He wants to see that child grow up astray and end up being tortured forever? What is the purpose in that? what is the purpose in any torture- let alone a torture that dies not end???

who made this place of torture? and who decides who gets to go there? and why forever? sounds like a sinister plot to me...


What say you?

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The passages that warn to hate parents, are never taken literally. Human reason understands the hyperbolic nature of this passage. However, people lose some sense of reason while reading other passages like Matt 25:46. In my opinion, the reason it is so easily acceptable is it makes people feel superior and special. Without any conscience effort , it is human nature to accept eternal torture as just.

The truth is , people are brainwashed , and it can be very difficult to deprogram anyone who does not willingly wish to see how unreasonable it is to subject any living creature to eternal misery. Even if you show scripture that foretells all misery and pain will come to an end. They will insist that God will allow the majority of His beloved creation to exist in a state of torture forever.

It is a sickness , that continues to be pervasive in most churches and pulpits. It is a disease left to run its course. And the light is beginning to break through to those who are ready to be healed.

msmorality said:

The truth is , people are brainwashed.. They will insist that God will allow the majority of His beloved creation to exist in a state of torture forever.
It is a sickness , that continues to be pervasive in most churches and pulpits. It is a disease left to run its course. And the light is beginning to break through to those who are ready to be healed.

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God does not torture anyone. He appoints the Just rewards by their fruits.

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The passages that warn to hate parents, are never taken literally. Human reason understands the hyperbolic nature of this passage. However, people lose some sense of reason while reading other passages like Matt 25:46. In my opinion, the reason it is so easily acceptable is it makes people feel superior and special. Without any conscience effort , it is human nature to accept eternal torture as just.

The truth is , people are brainwashed , and it can be very difficult to deprogram anyone who does not willingly wish to see how unreasonable it is to subject any living creature to eternal misery. Even if you show scripture that foretells all misery and pain will come to an end. They will insist that God will allow the majority of His beloved creation to exist in a state of torture forever.

It is a sickness , that continues to be pervasive in most churches and pulpits. It is a disease left to run its course. And the light is beginning to break through to those who are ready to be healed. (orig posted by msmorality)




why do you think this brainwashing occurred in the 1st place, do you believe it was part of the devils plan of deception, or something of man? and why is it so engrained into the church today, it is like a malignancy, i dont get it...do you ever think it will change.?

Surely in essence the question is this: why would a God who is the ipitome of love take delight in torturing people in a place of torment. The Bible actually contradicts this idea in many ways. For exmple, if when we die we do go to a place of torment then John 5:28,29 is without any meaning. (See also Romans 6:7.) Further, take Job as an example. In Job 14:13 in some translations (like the Catholic Douay) Job prayed to go to Hell, to be concealed from God's wrath. Why was Job praying to go to a place where torture and torment was going on, where souls had no rest or respite? He wanted an end to his pain on the earth, not a continuation somewhere else.

Also, take the faithful ones whom God walked with in times past. They aren't in heaven, because until Jesus came and was resurrected, no-one had gone to heaven. So are these ones in Hell? How would you answer from the Bible?

You see, once again people are being blinded by untruth. Creating a doctrine that is contradicted in the Bible will only work if people don't read the Bible, that they are threatened with expulsion if they dare have the audacity to read where the Bible clearly shows that what is being taught to them is actually untrue.

The Bible states `you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.` It doesn't say that the truth will make you a prisoner, to keep you in fear. Yet many people are in fear. The truth of the Bible will set them free, but they need to read it and meditate on it. In that way they will prove to themselves that what they have been taught about Hell being a place of torment will of been a lie.

well said.