Mary, mediator of all graces

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The Catholic view on Mary is one of the things that keeps me uneasy about becoming Catholic.

I can accept the existing dogmas for the most part but when I see statements to the effect that no one can come to Jesus except through Mary, I find it pushing a little too far.

I think it depends on how you interpret that. How do you "get to Jesus?" Really get to Him? By submission to the Will Of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. IOW, like Mary, the first and most perfect disciple, did.

Some people have a lot of trouble with abstract concepts and they will see personal devotion to Mary as necessary to being Christian. Yet, you can spend you entire life being Catholic and never say a single Rosary. Catholics managed to get by just fine for a thousand years without.

The DOGMA is about Immaculate Conception and Assumption. That's all you must assent to. All the rest is a personal choice. Different parishes, depending on their Pastors, have more or less emphasis on Mary.

Anyway, don't let anything said on an internet forum keep you from the Church.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Then you cannot accept the Incarnation. It's as simple as that. Christ has already decreed that He would come to us through her Immaculate Womb. That's really the end of the matter.

And I dislike the you are speaking of a negative imposition. It's as if you are saying there can be some conflict in the relationship between Mary and Jesus. If you truly understood what it really means for Mary to be His Mother then you would realise the truth of these doctrines.



Too late.

I don't have a problem with the idea that Christ was brought into the world through Mary.

The issue is the idea that we can not come to Christ except through Mary. He came to us already. He came to seek and to save the lost. As I said, I have no problem seeing Mary as a minister of the grace of Christ.

Let me make the comparison to the ministry of a Priest. Ministerial priests (ie those who are ordained to Holy Orders) stand in the place of Jesus as part of their ministry. They minister to us on behalf of Jesus and as his representative. They facilitate us going to Jesus... but they are never imposed between us and Jesus in the sense that we CAN'T go to Christ without first going through a priest.

When Christ's ministers exercise the ministries of the Church (which are the ministries of Christ) they do so through Christ and on the behalf of Christ... but they are not imposed as an extra layer which prevents us from going directly to Christ ourselves.
Quite the opposite.. the entire reason their ministry exists is to make sure that we go directly to Christ himself.
 
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Simon_Templar

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I think it depends on how you interpret that. How do you "get to Jesus?" Really get to Him? By submission to the Will Of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. IOW, like Mary, the first and most perfect disciple, did.

Some people have a lot of trouble with abstract concepts and they will see personal devotion to Mary as necessary to being Christian. Yet, you can spend you entire life being Catholic and never say a single Rosary. Catholics managed to get by just fine for a thousand years without.

The DOGMA is about Immaculate Conception and Assumption. That's all you must assent to. All the rest is a personal choice. Different parishes, depending on their Pastors, have more or less emphasis on Mary.

Anyway, don't let anything said on an internet forum keep you from the Church.


Thanks, I'm just cautious.. I want to make sure I am not walking myself willfilly or blindly into something I can't agree with etc.
I'm probably over cautious also for the fact that basically everyone I know will think I've gone off my rocker and become an idolatrous heretic.
 
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Swoosh

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Asking her to pray for us is not idolatry. Is asking my friend to pray for me the same as worshiping them?

Also, Mary is quite different from us (and the rest of creation, for that matter) in that she herself was free from the stain of original sin. She is the Queen of Heaven and is intimately involved in our salvation whether we can realize that or not.
 
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isshinwhat

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The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

Correction, it demands one worship none other than God. As has been said, to pray means to ask; it does not necessarily entail worship. Ever heard Shakespeare? "Pray thee, tell me..." There is no worship entailed in that statement, your definition is unnecessarily narrow.

Regarding your other assertion, Mary was saved through being Immaculately Conceived. It was solely an act of God on a soul who otherwise would have been stained with Original Sin. A doctor can save a person who is already sick, and a watchful parent can save their child from walking into the street and in front of a car. In either case, the child is saved through no act of his own.
 
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isshinwhat

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Actually there's a massive difference. Firstly to address it: Yes there are various instances in the Bible which record someone praying for another, or asking others to pray for them- but the Bible nowhere states we should ask someone in Heaven to pray for us, nor does it show anyone in Heaven pray for someone.

2 Maccabees 15:11-16: [11] He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief.

[12]What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews.

[13] Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority.

[14] And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."

[15] Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus:

[16] "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries."
 
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Swoosh

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Where is your Biblical basis for Mary's assumption :confused:

I don't have a lot of time to sit down and explain this presently, but take a look at these scripture quotes: [shamelessly stolen from Scripture Catholic]

VI. Mary's Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

The ECFs also expounded upon this teaching. If you wish to get a feel for what early Christians believed, might I suggest reading a bit from the first couple of centuries. :)
 
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anada

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Yes, we pray to God. We also; talk to God, beg God, ask God, petition God, whisper to God, think to God, sing to God, mumble to God, and so on. Let us be clear that the action of pray or any other action to God is an action we can use anywhere. The difference is that when we communicate with God it is a communication that is meant for God alone. Do not get stricken dumb because you falsely believe a particular verb is meant only for God. It is not the verb but how it is intended. :thumbsup:

I don't know where you're going with this, are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me?:p
 
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isshinwhat

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There are multiple verses instructing us to pray to God, none which tell us to pray to or through anyone else. There is one case in all of the Bible where someone attempts to communicate with somebody who is in Heaven- and it's not a positive outcome.

I addressed a similar statement a while back.

Divination, which is what the Bible prohibits, is "a foreseeing or foretelling of future events; the pretended art discovering secret or future by preternatural means," thus placing your trust outside of God (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.) This is not what we do when we ask saints for their prayers.

Revelation 8:3-4 records this scene from John's vision of Heaven, "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

Through that vision, we have a clear picture of worship in Heaven, complete with an angel offering up the prayers of the Saints. The angels and Saints in Heaven stand before Christ in worship, perfectly living out the commands of Christ, one of which is that we pray for one another. It is their love for us as brothers, and more importantly Christ within us, that drives them to pray for us. The same Jesus that dwells in our hearts dwells in theirs as they partake fully in the "divine nature," and that is the tie that binds us together in the Communion of Saints.

Here is a good example of divination from the Old Testament, and an explination of why it is forbidden. Some bring it up as an argument against prayer to Saints, but I do not believe it applies. In this example, Saul does not go to Samuel in holy prayer as a brother in the Lord, with confidence in God's answering his request, instead he went to a medium to divine the future, showing his distrust and turning from God. 1 Samuel says, "...when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, 'Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.' "

As was said before, divination is "The act of divining; a foreseeing or foretelling of future events; the pretended art discovering secret or future by preternatural means." Our prayers to Saints are not turns away from God, as was Saul's journey into divination, they are, instead, acts of faith in God who we believe overcame death and has given us the greatest gift, eternal life and participation in the Body of Christ.

I hope it can now be clearly seen that Saul's divination and the Catholic/Coptic/Orthodox practice of asking Saints for prayer are completely different in form and intent.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I don't know where you're going with this, are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me?:p

I am merely stating that the word "pray" is not exclusive to God as a verb. However, God is always held as high as possible. He is infinite and we are finite. So long as we know in our heart and soul and mind that God is the highest then when we do anything for God it is exclusive to Him regardless of the words we use.
 
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Simon_Templar

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since some have brought up the issue of divination and necromancy in the OT in comparison to the idea of the intercession of the saints I would like to comment.

The primary issue here is what might be called 'realm distinction'. Christians, for a long time, have missed a great deal of this aspect of the OT due to some faulty interpetations that have persisted for a long time in general theology.

Anyway, what this issue has to do with is essentially with humanity trying to access the spiritual realm, including the realm of the dead, by means that were apart from, and unapproved by God.

The story of the covenants in the OT beginning in Eden right on down through is the story of God creating a meeting point between heaven and earth through which man can have fellowship with God.

The other thread of this story is the conterfeit joining of heaven and earth which has been brought about and encouraged by fallen angels since Satan deceived Eve in the garden.

The offer that Satan made was that Adam and Eve could attain the knowledge of God (ie the knowledge of heaven) on their own apart from God, by disobeying God's commands.

That same offer has contined to be made by fallen angels down through history in the form of the pagan religions that surrounded ancient Israel.

This is the primary context of the Tower of Babel incident as well. Mankind united in their attempt to attain heaven without God, in co-operation with the false gods.

This false joining of heaven and earth outside of God's covenant has always been facilitated by the revelation of occult knowledge from the evil spirits to humanity.

If you examine the OT carefully you will find that God always gave means within the covenant to receive knowledge and direction from God. He always gave means to petition God. The really surprising thing is that even in the OT those means within the covenant, approved by God, in form are sometimes almost identical to the means that were expressly forbidden outside the covenant.

Thus we find within God's covenant the use of star signs, and outside the covenant, the use of star signs. In the covenant we find the use of physical objects as omens to receive a yes or no answer from God (the Urim and the Thummim), we find the same basic thing outside the covenant.

The primary issue, always, is whether the person is using a means that has been sanctioned by God within the bounds of the covenant.

If you are using a means to petition for knowledge or wisdom, or help, that is sanctioned by God within the covenant, then you are safe. At worst you will not receive an answer.

If, however you are using a means which is not sanctioned by God and is outside the covenant, then you are in grave danger of deception and corruption by the false spiritual forces of darkness.

We see this in the instance of Saul. He first went to the means of accessing the spiritual realm which were approved within the covenant, the Priests and the Urim and the Thummim. When those yielded him no answer, he went outside the covenant to a medium.

I should point out here that the primary issue IS NOT that Saul was trying to speak to Samuel. The issue is that he went to a medium. A person who, by definition sought spiritual knowledge and contact outside of God's covenant will.

Another point of major importance is that in the OT the spirits of the righteous were in sheol waiting just like everyone else.
After Christ we are told in the New Testament, in Hebrews 12, that the spirits of the righteous are in New Jerusalem, the city of God, together with Jesus and the Angels. This is foundational to the doctrine of the communion of the Saints. There is no longer the kind of spiritual seperation between them and us that there once was because we are all united in Christ and in the body of Christ. We are all citizens of the same city and more over, when we go to worship in the mass, we are spiritually together with them worshipping.

In short, they are no longer in the realm of the dead. They are in the City of the living God which is the Church in heaven.
 
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Angeldove97

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