To Debate or Not...that is the question.

elahopes

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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style, serif]When you are right, you're right! Everything is a matter of right and wrong, right? So, if people don't see that you are right, then your only real choice is to argue with them, right? After all, they have to be convinced you are right, right? [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]However, "Intelligent people are always open to new ideas. In fact, they look for them." Prov. 18:15[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]We are all learning...no one has achieved yet....so instead of looking for what is wrong with someones post or reply...look for what is right about it. Then in so doing, you also put the other person at ease and facilitate discussion, instead of argument. [/FONT]

"Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone so that I might bring them to Christ." 1 Cor. 9:22

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Everyone is in a different place: Spiritually, in their maturity, faith, knowledge and personal walk. As well as in all the other ways ~ culturally, age-wise, upbringing and gender ~ therefore it is a good possibility they may express themselves differently then you do. It is also hard to express unearthly-spiritual thought many times using mere earthly-human written words...especially with no facial expression, body language and tone of voice. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Man looks at what is on the outside, but God looks at what is in the heart." 1 Sam. 16:7[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]And, argument only puts the other person on the defense and closes their heart to what you have to say.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Zeal without knowledge is not good; a person who moves too quickly may go the wrong way." Prov. 19:2[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]If it appears that the other's post or reply is in error, or is not the same opinion as yours...then inquire further to make sure you have everything clarified first...make sure you have the truth concerning what the other person is really trying to say...then proceed, however, proceed with what the bible calls humility and wisdom.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions." Prov. 18:2[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"The Godly think before speaking, the wicked spout evil words." Prov. 15:28[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"A wise person is hungry for the truth. While the fool feeds on trash." Prov. 15:14[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"It is better to be patient, then powerful. It is better to have self-control then to conquer a city." Prov. 16:32[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Then, as the discussion proceeds, it is much more productive to not put the other persons opinion down along the way...which again, just puts the other person on the defense and can incite an argument...which closes hearts to listening...and just becomes a show of who's ego is bigger. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"He must increase, and I must decrease." John 3:30[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Anyway, has anyone really changed somebody's mind by arguing with them??[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"A gentle answer turns away wrath. But harsh words stir up anger." Prov. 15:1[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Beginning a quarrel opens up the flood gate, so drop a matter before a dispute breaks out." Prov. 17:14[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"A truly wise person uses few words. A person with understanding is even-tempered." Prov. 17:27[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]So, you really want someone to listen to what you have to say? Then remember to speak in a way that glorifies Christ and His love...and then with this in mind, as you speak you will much more likely be heard. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Also, "Accept Christians who are weak in the faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right and wrong...They are responsible to the Lord, so let Him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lords power will help them do as they should." Romans 14:1-4[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]There is always a flip-side, however. It does not show any love by engaging in someone's arguments. If someone wants to quarrel with you, remember, they are probably not really interested in what you have to say. They are probably more interested in hearing themselves talk and in wasting your time.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"When arguing with fools, do not answer their foolish arguments, or you become as foolish as they are." Prov. 26:4[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"In the mouth of a fool, a proverb becomes as limp as a paralyzed leg." Prov. 26:7 [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Honoring a fool (with your time) is as foolish as tying a stone to a slingshot." Prov. 26:8 Ouch! [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Walk in the Holy Spirit in everything you do...and you will not satisfy the flesh's desires. Show love, and be a peacemaker. Also, kindness and gentleness...treating others the way you would want to be treated, not in the way they are treating you...and in this way you will show tremendous faith in God. Galatians 5:16-26[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]God created the heavens and the earth...and all things on the earth without our help. So, He can surely convince the hearts of the people that He created, about His truths, all by Himself...also without our help.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=garamond, new york, times, serif]Note: When Jesus confronted, He did not debate. He said His truth and did not argue about it...as there is no reason for that, as truth can stand on it's own. The Pharisees would bait Him, but He did not give in to carnality/debate. Debate is two sided and involves opinion. Confrontation is one sided...as it listens to the other, but does not force/fight/debate, as the truth needs no one to force it, as it is Spiritually revealed and understood anyway. [/FONT]


[FONT=garamond, new york, times, serif]Discussion involves respect for each other's opinions and view points. There is openness and a heart for learning more...and not just in spouting out your view and demanding others comply. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"If you want Christ to be at the center of your life, then love what is at the center of His." By J.E.Sorge[/FONT]




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wannabeadesigirl

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I can imagine if this guideline (very well thought out by the way) were followed the discussions on the forum would consist of opinion, opinion, discussion, end. The discussions might only be a couple of pages long. It would definitely save more time in the long run :) ;)
I really like what you have to say, and I for one would like to see more respect and kindness on the forums since it is in accordance with God's plan for us "Beloved let us love one another, for Love is of God" Of course the verse of the bible dealing with believer to believer love and kindness go on ad nauseum.
 
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elahopes

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Thank you! It has been on my heart for a while to write/start a thread such as this...as I think debate can easily get into the flesh...and to me it then just becomes whos right and whos wrong...and even tho it might be immusing to watch the ping-pong match, I always wondered what the non-Christians would think as they looked on. The world fights and debates...and we are not to conform to it.

Also, when I look in Gal. 5:19-21 it speaks pretty clearly about quarreling, divisions, selfish ambition, the feelings that others are wrong except you and etc. are OF the flesh...and how those who do these things as a way of life are not a part of God or His kingdom. So, I think it is something that anyone with the Spirit of God should consider when relating to others in any....not just here...forum. We can share, and discuss and even disagree...but I think we must be sensitive to the Holy Spirit to when we are crossing that line into the flesh.
 
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Phinehas2

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Elahopes,
I tend to agree with you.
the truth needs no one to force it, as it is Spiritually revealed and understood anyway.
This is true.


Note: When Jesus confronted, He did not debate. He said His truth and did not argue about it...as there is no reason for that, as truth can stand on it's own. The Pharisees would bait Him, but He did not give in to carnality/debate.
I would say some debated with Jesus, though he didn’t debate with them The ‘baiting’ by the Pharisees that you mentioned was with arguments why and with a view to promoting their ideas.


Of course the NT includes instruction not to quarrel and not to stray from what the NT teaches. It also says don’t argue about disputable matters.
For a matter to be disputable it needs some apparent contradiction in scripture. Sadly whereas in the past it was largely disputable matters such as style and church practice that has damaged Christian unity, most of the issues on forums these days in undisputable matters.

Concerning disputable matters I think the news is good, I see far more unity amoung Christians of different denominations and ministries and styles. the division is over undisputable matters which is probably a good thing.
 
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2ndRateMind

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Well, y'all, I hate to cast the first stone of dissent, but I'm in favour of debate. And I'm in favour of debate for several reasons.

Reason 1. We all have different perspectives, and they all deserve to be heard. The objective truth of the state of the world is related to the sum of all perceptions of it, for example. Ruling out dissent rules out vital pieces of the puzzle.

Reason 2. The 'truth' is not spiritually revealed, and apprehended, as has been suggested. If it was, we would all agree. The truth needs to be worked for, excavated, discovered. It does not just 'happen'. Debate is one method of doing this.

Reason 3. A matter that is debated, even vehemently disagreed about, is a matter that has been explored from all possible angles.

Reason 4. There is a 'free-market of ideas'. Some ideas are better than others. These are the ideas that deserve to prevail, and prevail they will in a climate of debate.

Reason 5. Debate challenges us, and forces us to justify our beliefs. In so doing, it lends those beliefs a living, breathing relevance, where before they were slumbering dogma.

Reason 6. Debate educates us. We learn things we did not know, and might never have known, had the debate not happened.

Reason 7. Consensus is dangerous. The more people agree, the more likely they are to be making a big mistake. And without the brake of a dissenting opinion, there is nothing to stop them making it.

Reason 8. Debate demonstrates an issue is important. People care enough to have an opinion, and state it, and lay their reputations, and sometimes even their lives, on the line.

Reason 9. Debate exposes and destroys faulty thinking. In a contested debate, all sides are looking for flaws in the opponents positions. And they look far harder than the advocates tend to, since the advocates have intellectual investment in their own ideas, and tend to be biased in their own favour.

My conclusion is that debate is 'A Good Thing'. And that can be demonstrated objectively by the scientific and moral progress humanity has made since the enlightenment. The enlightenment emphasis on free speech and universal enfranchisment, as opposed to the stultifying influence of church and state and tradition and oppression that had hitherto structured beliefs, allowed humanity to take up a quest to discover truth as it is, as opposed to 'truth' as it suited authority.

If Christians ever stopped debating, if Christians ever stopped disagreeing, believe me, I would seriously consider Buddhism.

Best, 2RM.
 
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elahopes

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I know it has been a very long time since I have been on here....due to family issues. So, not sure if you ( 2RM) are still on here, (I hope you R well!:) but I still wanted to respond. Would you please site scripture with your reasonings, please? I also wanted to say that I do not disagree with debate, but I do with the manner and attitude with which it is carried out. If you see all the scriptures I sited, it is apparent that it is this way. Manner and attitude. Is it done in a way that is truly within the "guidelines" of the one and only new commandment that God says fulfills all of His requirments and of the law and the prophets?? If it is not then it is not done in God's way. Manner & Attitude. Blessings to you!!!
 
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Fireinfolding

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I absolutely love your post elahopes! God bless you:thumbsup:

One thing I have noticed in our discussions is we either have a hunger to understand, or a hunger to argue and debate (for the most part), or just be right (argue for the sake of arguing) to trap, throw down in the sense of exalting ourselves (at the expense of others).

But God weighs our hearts. And I think we all have things that might irk us (as it relates to someones approach to ourselves or to others). For me (I know) it might be that puffed up thing that can (and does) seem to set me off at times. You know... that "I have the truth you dont" type thing (in the way that can be done). Or it can be when one brother is beating up other weaker brethren in their smugness (we've all seen it on the boards). I know (I am guilty as charged) for sticking my foot into those kinds of situations myself. Because we have weaker and stronger brethren among us. And those who might have the greater knowledge (not accompanied by love) is really what I am talking about. Not those whose knowledge is not corrupted by this overwhelming sense of themselves. Whose sharing (in the latter case) is informative, edifying, revelatory, helpful and doesnt come off as seeking its own benefit or edification but that of others. Theres a difference, people become plain that way, and by that I mean plain to our conscience (in a overall sense). And from this postion I can really understand (now) how its not him who commendeth himself that is approved but whom the Lord commends. And even in these things they can become evident to us. So, for the most part, what do we seek? Whats in our own responses? To what effect (in otherwords). What would our overall responses say of us? Are they aimed as "slam dunks" (as if) engaging in some kind of sport? What is it (overall) that can define a persons own irks because I have them too.

I know we can all be guilty of this, and I will confess if someone is exalting their inflated sense of their self over other brethren and my eyeballs remain in the back of my head (way too long) I might step in to the same (slam dunking) he (or she) is doing on others and slam dunk on Mr ego (so to speak). So I am not without charge in doing this very same thing. However as with a weaker brother who is trying to understand (a little unskillful in the word of truth) trying to find his way around (sincerely) the thought of doing such a thing wouldnt cross my mind. But if someone is being just plain nasty, mean and throwing themselves around on other brothers and sisters (especially weaker) I dont hesitate, unless a stronger brother with the right intent is occupying the thread and you can pretty much see he is bringing it under control.

Dont get me wrong, the desire (in such a case) wouldnt be to stay around and "wrangle" with anyone (although sometimes such actions could further provoke the same) unless you had "slam dunked" them (so to speak) to their absolute silence on the matter. And even if one did because pride has a "blinding influence" upon it (as is the nature of pride) its often not hard to do that. However(in the same breath) just the same it will often not let go of something either but divert (which is the out) even though it seeks to continue because being right appears more the objective. And anyone can be tempted to either remain or leave all depending on whether we have it in us to walk away. But it varries from situation to situation. There are differences, and I wouldnt advocate a return on the matter, but sometimes it seems nessesary (and at other times not). Sometimes I do othertimes I do not (and sometimes I dont discern that rightly) and am at fault.

For example, the very verse you posted has another just like it...

Prov 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Prov 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


But I get what you are saying we can be as wicked men when our words start lying in wait for others too, for example


Prov 12:6 The words of the wicked are to lie in wait for blood:

Acknowledged here likewise of the wickedness of doing so...

Jerm 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

And mirrored here likewise in Jesus Christ...

Luke 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Theres nothing new under the sun

Mat 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

And so we see the same temptations of Christ roll into our walks in the Lord as well (in the religious sphere of things) where I believe we can somewhat discern these same things. For what purpose... For sport, to accuse? To be as one who just tries to entangle others in their talk, what for? Our whole purpose being as those who lay in wait for others with our words? You can sorta catch that whole dynamic (among them) and among ourselves I believe.

Great post, wonderful insight, God bless you:thumbsup:
 
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If Not For Grace

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Is Being right every time worth the price you may pay.
Slience can often accomplish more than debate.

386730_297314246977946_152560524786653_847690_12121388_n.jpg
 
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elahopes

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FireinFolding....thank you for your gracious response!! I just love to study scripture and to talk....so the result is..well...the above. :) :blush:


I loved yours as well....thank you for taking the time to write. I know that some do not like long posts, but I like them....to me it means someone is really putting lots of thought and energy into something, which is pretty cool.

I love the verses you sited as well....they make it clear that we have to use our heads and hearts along with following scripture. There is definitely time for anger, but without sinning.....or, I would like to put it another way. Anger, within the boundaries of the 1st commandment.

Blessings!! to you....
 
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Zebra1552

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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style, serif]When you are right, you're right! Everything is a matter of right and wrong, right? So, if people don't see that you are right, then your only real choice is to argue with them, right? After all, they have to be convinced you are right, right? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style, serif][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]None of that has anything to do with debate and argumentation.
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif]
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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]However, "Intelligent people are always open to new ideas. In fact, they look for them." Prov. 18:15[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]We are all learning...no one has achieved yet....so instead of looking for what is wrong with someones post or reply...look for what is right about it. Then in so doing, you also put the other person at ease and facilitate discussion, instead of argument. [/FONT]
Debate isn't just about 'finding a problem' it has to do with reasoning and knowing arguments other than your own, which requires one to know what's 'right' about it. You're doing nothing more than creating a meaningless semantic distinction between debate and discussion and try to state that all debate is bad. This isn't the case.
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif]
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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Man looks at what is on the outside, but God looks at what is in the heart." 1 Sam. 16:7[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]And, argument only puts the other person on the defense and closes their heart to what you have to say.[/FONT]
You don't know what argumentation is if you think all it does is close people's hearts. This rips the Bible out of context to suit a dislike for debate and argumentation rather than offering evidence in support for your position.
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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Zeal without knowledge is not good; a person who moves too quickly may go the wrong way." Prov. 19:2[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]If it appears that the other's post or reply is in error, or is not the same opinion as yours...then inquire further to make sure you have everything clarified first...make sure you have the truth concerning what the other person is really trying to say...then proceed, however, proceed with what the bible calls humility and wisdom.[/FONT]
Again, the verse has nothing to do with what you say about it. Why abuse Scripture in this manner?
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif]
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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions." Prov. 18:2[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"The Godly think before speaking, the wicked spout evil words." Prov. 15:28[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"A wise person is hungry for the truth. While the fool feeds on trash." Prov. 15:14[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"It is better to be patient, then powerful. It is better to have self-control then to conquer a city." Prov. 16:32[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Then, as the discussion proceeds, it is much more productive to not put the other persons opinion down along the way...which again, just puts the other person on the defense and can incite an argument...which closes hearts to listening...and just becomes a show of who's ego is bigger. [/FONT]
Again, you miss the point of debate. A real debate doesn't involve insults, it involves questioning and gaining the reasoning for someone else's position. True debate is emotionless. This paints nothing but a caricature of debate.
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"He must increase, and I must decrease." John 3:30[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Anyway, has anyone really changed somebody's mind by arguing with them??[/FONT]
Again, that verse is irrelevant to debate and ripped out of context. And yes, my mind has been changed by arguing with people. Numerous times.
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"A gentle answer turns away wrath. But harsh words stir up anger." Prov. 15:1[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Beginning a quarrel opens up the flood gate, so drop a matter before a dispute breaks out." Prov. 17:14[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"A truly wise person uses few words. A person with understanding is even-tempered." Prov. 17:27[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]So, you really want someone to listen to what you have to say? Then remember to speak in a way that glorifies Christ and His love...and then with this in mind, as you speak you will much more likely be heard.[/FONT]
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Again, you're not addressing debate, you're addressing a caricature of debate.

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Also, "Accept Christians who are weak in the faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right and wrong...They are responsible to the Lord, so let Him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lords power will help them do as they should." Romans 14:1-4[/FONT][/quote]
It is a weaker brother's duty, in a world of choices, to make their own choice to not get involved in things they cannot handle. This is a philosophy and ethics forum, a subforum of theology. If people can't handle debate without throwing insults, they shouldn't even be here. I can't be responsible on the internet for knowing who's weaker and who's not. And there's a difference between accepting a person and accepting their argument.
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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]There is always a flip-side, however. It does not show any love by engaging in someone's arguments. If someone wants to quarrel with you, remember, they are probably not really interested in what you have to say. They are probably more interested in hearing themselves talk and in wasting your time.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"When arguing with fools, do not answer their foolish arguments, or you become as foolish as they are." Prov. 26:4[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"In the mouth of a fool, a proverb becomes as limp as a paralyzed leg." Prov. 26:7 [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"Honoring a fool (with your time) is as foolish as tying a stone to a slingshot." Prov. 26:8 Ouch! [/FONT]
Yes, let's stereotype everyone who disagrees with us. They must really be idiots in disguise. :doh: Arguments are not bad. Insults are bad. There's nothing wrong with arguing. There is something wrong with ad hominem.
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=Bookman Old Style,serif]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]
Walk in the Holy Spirit in everything you do...and you will not satisfy the flesh's desires. Show love, and be a peacemaker. Also, kindness and gentleness...treating others the way you would want to be treated, not in the way they are treating you...and in this way you will show tremendous faith in God. Galatians 5:16-26
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[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]God created the heavens and the earth...and all things on the earth without our help. So, He can surely convince the hearts of the people that He created, about His truths, all by Himself...also without our help.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=garamond, new york, times, serif]Note: When Jesus confronted, He did not debate. He said His truth and did not argue about it...as there is no reason for that, as truth can stand on it's own. The Pharisees would bait Him, but He did not give in to carnality/debate. Debate is two sided and involves opinion. Confrontation is one sided...as it listens to the other, but does not force/fight/debate, as the truth needs no one to force it, as it is Spiritually revealed and understood anyway. [/FONT]


[FONT=garamond, new york, times, serif]Discussion involves respect for each other's opinions and view points. There is openness and a heart for learning more...and not just in spouting out your view and demanding others comply. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]"If you want Christ to be at the center of your life, then love what is at the center of His." By J.E.Sorge[/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Jesus had a specific purpose, to die for the sins of mankind, and to teach us how we should live. Not once did Christ condemn debate as we know it, not once does the Bible say that debate is sinful or carnal, and everything we utter involves opinion to one degree or another. This rant, then, does not really address argumentation and debate, it addresses bickering. There's a pretty big difference.

And do note that in my entire disagreement with your post and argument against it, I said nothing about you as a person, did not demand that you comply, did not just 'spout my own view', and yet I'm still debating you. In short, this response in and of itself is evidence against what you've claimed about debate.
 
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WannaWitness

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I don't see anything wrong with a little healthy and orderly debate, as everyone is going to have different opinions on one thing or another, and also has the right to explain, to the best of their ability, why they hold such opinions. The problem comes in when it becomes a oneupmanship just for the sake of having a different opinion. I mean, there is something wrong when someone believes themselves to be smarter, holier, and all-around superior just because "the other guys" don't hold their views. Then it becomes a cat-fight of nothing more than name-calling (hey, this is not kindergarten anymore) and flaming, and then it ceases to be orderly. It's especially bad when it's between Christians, and it's a terrible witness to the lost, and part of what gives Christianity a bad name.

I personally don't like to debate (although I have been caught in the middle for what what started out to be nothing more than giving my general two-cents worth on any given issue). And while I do try my best to defend my stance on certain thing, and find that a few people express disagreement (with ideas of their own as to why they might disagree), I end up throwing in the (probably overused) line "let's agree to disagree", then bow out and move on to something else. Yes, it might leave the other party with the satisfaction that "they've got me", making them automatically the "winners" of the argument, but I don't think that's really the case. It just means that I don't want to bother, and have other things to do.

But, that's the thing. There are a lot of issues discussed among Christians. Bible versions, modesty, entertainment choices, end time views, politics, whether or not to eat meat (and among those who do, what meats are actually okay to eat and what ones are off limits), and the list goes on. Everyone is going to think they're right on one thing or another, but when we, as Christians, get to Heaven, every question will be answered and every mystery will be solved, and therefore, none of the things we disagreed about on earth will matter anymore.

God bless you all. :)
 
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elahopes

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Is Being right every time worth the price you may pay.
Slience can often accomplish more than debate.

386730_297314246977946_152560524786653_847690_12121388_n.jpg


Amen, If Not for Grace. Jesus was often silent when confronted or expected to speak. I heard it said, that is why God gave us two ears and only one mouth....cause we are to be slow to speak and quick to listen. :thumbsup:
 
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elahopes

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I don't see anything wrong with a little healthy and orderly debate, as everyone is going to have different opinions on one thing or another, and also has the right to explain, to the best of their ability, why they hold such opinions. The problem comes in when it becomes a oneupmanship just for the sake of having a different opinion. I mean, there is something wrong when someone believes themselves to be smarter, holier, and all-around superior just because "the other guys" don't hold their views. Then it becomes a cat-fight of nothing more than name-calling (hey, this is not kindergarten anymore) and flaming, and then it ceases to be orderly. It's especially bad when it's between Christians, and it's a terrible witness to the lost, and part of what gives Christianity a bad name.

I personally don't like to debate (although I have been caught in the middle for what what started out to be nothing more than giving my general two-cents worth on any given issue). And while I do try my best to defend my stance on certain thing, and find that a few people express disagreement (with ideas of their own as to why they might disagree), I end up throwing in the (probably overused) line "let's agree to disagree", then bow out and move on to something else. Yes, it might leave the other party with the satisfaction that "they've got me", making them automatically the "winners" of the argument, but I don't think that's really the case. It just means that I don't want to bother, and have other things to do.

But, that's the thing. There are a lot of issues discussed among Christians. Bible versions, modesty, entertainment choices, end time views, politics, whether or not to eat meat (and among those who do, what meats are actually okay to eat and what ones are off limits), and the list goes on. Everyone is going to think they're right on one thing or another, but when we, as Christians, get to Heaven, every question will be answered and every mystery will be solved, and therefore, none of the things we disagreed about on earth will matter anymore.

God bless you all. :)


Thank you for your response! Blessings to you too...

I definitely like debate and discussion....and I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it...IF it is done within the guidelines of the Holy Spirit = meaning honorable attitude and manner. In Gal. 5 it speaks about what can happen when we do things in the flesh (or carnal nature).

It is very apparent to me that because we were born into this carnal world, with a carnal nature and so we are very familiar with living this way, that we will have a real tendency to resort (some more then others) to doing things the carnal way.

In Gal. 5: 19-21 there is a list of activities that the carnal nature naturally is prone to, and when you look at the list it is interesting how many on the list refer to how interrelating and the exchange of thoughts, feelings and ideas among people can turn carnal, and those are: 'hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except you and your group, envy, and other kinds of sin.'

SO, this is why I strongly believe that we have to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to go before us (vs 22-23) and lead us when involved in a difficult or heavy discussion with someone so it stays within the manner and attitudes that honor God and show His love to those watching. :prayer:
 
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WannaWitness

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Thank you for your response! Blessings to you too...

I definitely like debate and discussion....and I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it...IF it is done within the guidelines of the Holy Spirit = meaning honorable attitude and manner. In Gal. 5 it speaks about what can happen when we do things in the flesh (or carnal nature).

It is very apparent to me that because we were born into this carnal world, with a carnal nature and so we are very familiar with living this way, that we will have a real tendency to resort (some more then others) to doing things the carnal way.

In Gal. 5: 19-21 there is a list of activities that the carnal nature naturally is prone to, and when you look at the list it is interesting how many on the list refer to how interrelating and the exchange of thoughts, feelings and ideas among people can turn carnal, and those are: 'hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except you and your group, envy, and other kinds of sin.'

SO, this is why I strongly believe that we have to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to go before us (vs 22-23) and lead us when involved in a difficult or heavy discussion with someone so it stays within the manner and attitudes that honor God and show His love to those watching. :prayer:

Great thoughts. :)

Although I do admit, (although I don't like to be part of them) I like to listen to (and read) debates, as it is somewhat fascinating to read different opinions.
 
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Fireinfolding

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The word debate is used and springs out of strife and contention

Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

2Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

There is a good debate and a bad debate, a good one would be like when it speaks of Paul contending for the faith in defense of the gospel and the persuading of the Jews out of the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

There are certain on the forums I enjoy reading because theres none of that meaness, they are precise, well studied and dont do what normally comes in after them, NU UH! loudly trying to speak over folks and offer no evidence to the contrary (well you all know how it goes) ^_^

So in a sense the debate sorta makes manifest who is who and is also very informative, those kinds are rare, but when you find one your like Kool! I actually learned something (for once) LOL
 
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Zebra1552

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The word debate is used and springs out of strife and contention

Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

2Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

There is a good debate and a bad debate, a good one would be like when it speaks of Paul contending for the faith in defense of the gospel and the persuading of the Jews out of the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
Actually, no. There is formal debate and informal debate. The delineation between 'good' and 'bad' debate isn't very good because it implies that such a distinction can be clearly made without arbitrary choices. Given that everyone's definition of 'good' and 'bad are usually different, you won't be able to set a clear distinction between good debate and bad debate, plus there will be debates that don't fall clearly into either category.

There are certain on the forums I enjoy reading because theres none of that meaness, they are precise, well studied and dont do what normally comes in after them, NU UH! loudly trying to speak over folks and offer no evidence to the contrary (well you all know how it goes) ^_^

So in a sense the debate sorta makes manifest who is who and is also very informative, those kinds are rare, but when you find one your like Kool! I actually learned something (for once) LOL
I've been accused of 'being mean' even when I don't insult anyone or give attitude and what appears to one person as childish back and forth might actually be hashing out definitions, semantics, or something else essential to a healthy, informal debate. I think trying to make a rule that says Christians should or should not debate is silly because everyone's different and can handle different things. There are certain types of people who are able to discuss things without getting personal on this forum, and there are those who cannot. I generally try to avoid those that can't.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Actually, no. There is formal debate and informal debate. The delineation between 'good' and 'bad' debate isn't very good because it implies that such a distinction can be clearly made without arbitrary choices. Given that everyone's definition of 'good' and 'bad are usually different, you won't be able to set a clear distinction between good debate and bad debate, plus there will be debates that don't fall clearly into either category.

Greetings Jaws. Now I wasnt adressing either formal or informal aspect debate, or setting forth clearest of distinctions of whether ones striving or contending come spring forth out of goodwill or out of envy in every way possible. The latter being in the sense of "sport" which make others an offender for a word, or to wrangle and debate for debates sake. Whereas He says, Ye fast FOR strife and debate and he clearly says ye shall NOT do as ye do today and make your voice heard on high. He seems to imply there one can fast specifically FOR strife and debate (with others) and its the LORD there bringing forth their motive to us openly.

I Agree that everyones definition of what is good or evil is different, some call good evil and evil good. This is why I brought up a few scripture with the word debate in it. The LORD wasnt looking postively upon what they fasted FOR (in relation to strife and debate) which is what I am pointing out, likewise Paul feared when he come that very thing would be among them. Its apparent that debating can be shown in the negative sense of it, otherwise why would Paul fear and the LORD say, thou shalt not make your voice heard on high (doing so)? If debate is contending (one can contend positively) in defense of the gospel or in contrast "out of envy" (Paul said even Christ can be preached out of envy and strife). He puts the difference. And they also said wherever (strife and envy) are ((there))) is every evil work (not good work).

So if Paul reccognized this, and informed us of the same, I dont believe it would remain impossible for us to discern between the same.


I've been accused of 'being mean' even when I don't insult anyone or give attitude and what appears to one person as childish back and forth might actually be hashing out definitions, semantics, or something else essential to a healthy, informal debate. I think trying to make a rule that says Christians should or should not debate is silly because everyone's different and can handle different things. There are certain types of people who are able to discuss things without getting personal on this forum, and there are those who cannot. I generally try to avoid those that can't.

Yes, I guess that would be more a topic for falsely accusing someone. However, one can also falsely accuse anothers good conversation (so I agree with you here). Because we can have a conversation out of strife and envy (evil works) or shew out of a good conversation (ones same works) with the meekness of wisdom. The latter being a good conversation because it comes out of something good.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Which (to me) points out our way with one another (overall) not just our speech.

1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


1Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.


1Peter 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

So again...

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.


James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

In contrast then

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

And yet Paul says ...

Phil 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and (contrasted) some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

Again, the wisdom is which is of envy and strife

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

So even in Christ as Paul points out some just preach him out of envy and strife, and its contrasted against good will, so its not in good will, its out of that which is called every evil work and is not from the wisdom that is from above. So it cant be pure, or peaceable, or gentle, or easily intreated, or full of mercy and good fruits. Neither can it be without partiality or without hypocrisy. And it doesnt make for peace or seek it.

Sometimes it can be more our way then our words, but if the apostles could discern such things and speak to us of the manner of it (as far as our conversations go) and what works are behind them I do believe they can be discerned. By all at once? No I dont believe so (and not always right away) because there is that matter of discernment which we grow into not always something we possess immediately. Otherwse children (by nature of being children) wouldnt be tossed by every wind of doctrine either, they might only perceive the wind to be boisterous, or feirce or contrary in "someway", verses gentle (refreshing) or something to that effect (if you know what I mean).

But I wont (even here) strive over someones perception of these things either, I just try to pay attention to my own (inner) red flag going up (so to speak). Its for me to know it (and reccognize it). Its not like we are alone, He who is within us can give us warning. And someone can commend themselves to you all day long but its not he who commendeth himself that is approved but whom the Lord commends, and I believe he is able to make others plain to our conscience. Maybe not all at once, otherwise why would some need to feel ashamed of falsely accusing ones good conversation? I believe folks can be "manifestedly declared", whereas someone else might not, they might consider that a scarey thing whereas I think its quite awesome.

So I am only pointing out we can debate, discuss, or have our conversation (constructively) and shew the same "out of" whats good or show out of whats evil, and there is a measure of discernment that goes along with it. These are shown in scripture, even Christ is preached out of good will (and then out of something otherwise) "strife and envy" (and where that is) there (is) every evil work (not good).

Thats all I am saying.
 
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Zebra1552

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Greetings Jaws. Now I wasnt adressing either formal or informal aspect debate, or setting forth clearest of distinctions of whether ones striving or contending come spring forth out of goodwill or out of envy in every way possible. The latter being in the sense of "sport" which make others an offender for a word, or to wrangle and debate for debates sake. Whereas He says, Ye fast FOR strife and debate and he clearly says ye shall NOT do as ye do today and make your voice heard on high. He seems to imply there one can fast specifically FOR strife and debate (with others) and its the LORD there bringing forth their motive to us openly.

I Agree that everyones definition of what is good or evil is different, some call good evil and evil good. This is why I brought up a few scripture with the word debate in it. The LORD wasnt looking postively upon what they fasted FOR (in relation to strife and debate) which is what I am pointing out, likewise Paul feared when he come that very thing would be among them. Its apparent that debating can be shown in the negative sense of it, otherwise why would Paul fear and the LORD say, thou shalt not make your voice heard on high (doing so)? If debate is contending (one can contend positively) in defense of the gospel or in contrast "out of envy" (Paul said even Christ can be preached out of envy and strife). He puts the difference. And they also said wherever (strife and envy) are ((there))) is every evil work (not good work).

So if Paul reccognized this, and informed us of the same, I dont believe it would remain impossible for us to discern between the same.
I agree, Scripture speaks very clearly about fighting. Debating is not fighting. You use translations that seem to talk about debating as fighting when it's not:

Isa 58:4 Look, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to strike with a wicked fist. Such fasting as you do today will not make your voice heard on high.

2Co 12:20 For I fear that when I come, I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish; I fear that there may perhaps be quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.

It's talking about contention, fighting, and ultimately being at each other's throats. Most debate here doesn't cause that, it's the people that cause that and mistakenly attributing attacks on their reasoning as attacks on them.


Yes, I guess that would be more a topic for falsely accusing someone. However, one can also falsely accuse anothers good conversation (so I agree with you here). Because we can have a conversation out of strife and envy (evil works) or shew out of a good conversation (ones same works) with the meekness of wisdom. The latter being a good conversation because it comes out of something good.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Which (to me) points out our way with one another (overall) not just our speech.

1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


1Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.


1Peter 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

So again...

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.


James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

In contrast then

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

And yet Paul says ...

Phil 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and (contrasted) some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

Again, the wisdom is which is of envy and strife

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

So even in Christ as Paul points out some just preach him out of envy and strife, and its contrasted against good will, so its not in good will, its out of that which is called every evil work and is not from the wisdom that is from above. So it cant be pure, or peaceable, or gentle, or easily intreated, or full of mercy and good fruits. Neither can it be without partiality or without hypocrisy. And it doesnt make for peace or seek it.
In that case, though, it isn't the debate that's at fault, but the people making it contentious and about base emotional reactions like anger, greed, and jealousy. I don't think there's such thing as 'bad debate', just a bad debater and poor communication/interpersonal skills. Like I said, I don't think a logical (or Scriptural) case can be made for 'good debate' and 'bad debate' as a distinction, only 'good tactics' and 'bad tactics'.
 
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Fireinfolding

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I agree, Scripture speaks very clearly about fighting. Debating is not fighting. You use translations that seem to talk about debating as fighting when it's not:

Isa 58:4 Look, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to strike with a wicked fist. Such fasting as you do today will not make your voice heard on high.

2Co 12:20 For I fear that when I come, I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish; I fear that there may perhaps be quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.

It's talking about contention, fighting, and ultimately being at each other's throats. Most debate here doesn't cause that, it's the people that cause that and mistakenly attributing attacks on their reasoning as attacks on them.



In that case, though, it isn't the debate that's at fault, but the people making it contentious and about base emotional reactions like anger, greed, and jealousy. I don't think there's such thing as 'bad debate', just a bad debater and poor communication/interpersonal skills. Like I said, I don't think a logical (or Scriptural) case can be made for 'good debate' and 'bad debate' as a distinction, only 'good tactics' and 'bad tactics'.

For me, its about "the works" of the two wisdoms (at play or at work) as manifested in our conversations. Which can be bad or good through the medium of our conversing.

So what you might call good tactics (or bad tactics) whereas I might regard them after what I call "their workings" . One working, after a heavenly sort (or if you will ) "heavenly wisdom (as manifested through the medium of our conversation) and the other (earthly wisdom) as manifested through the same medium of our conversation.

However, I do realize that conversation is not evil in itself because we are encouraged to communicate. Its more to the undercurrent of it (or from which power) any of our conversations is had from (and on either side of it). It can be fruitful (or unfruitful) depending on who is engaging who (and how) so on this point I also agree. And obviously, after awhile ones mode of communication (or that out of which he operates often) serves to the manifestation of themselves. And even that is a good thing (even in the negative sense). Walking signals (of sorts) to "mark them" (as Paul says) and to avoid them. And I really do believe just as the good deeds of some cannot be hid so likewise those that be otherwise cannot either.

God bless you
 
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