Rusmeister...leaving?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Philothei

Love never fails
Nov 4, 2006
44,872
3,217
Northeast, USA
✟68,179.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
what? You are leaving? no way..budy... You made me read and read your posts *full of wisodom* Made me read CS Lewis for the first time (from your posts in TAW) and your insights in Russia and Russian Orthodoxy are eyeopeners for me :) You ain't going nowhere ;) ya hear??

Do not make me come to Russia to visit ya ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ortho_Cat
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
PE - I'd be curious as to what you do disagree with - I disagree with almost nothing, except the Catholic Church, of course, and on his faith in accomplishing things through political action in this world (a common Catholic malaise).
I actually overstated when I first posted, about disagreeing with him. I have sinced edited the post to make it clearer. There are things he's written that don't "strike me" as 100%, but other than perhaps what you mention, and possibly a few minor incidentals, Chestertos is about as sharp as they come.
 
Upvote 0

Joshua G.

Well-Known Member
Mar 5, 2009
3,288
419
U.S.A.
✟5,328.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm still waiting for my separate post. ;)

Before I deservedly undergo the scrutiny, I want to correct something I was going to correct earlier, but thought perhaps Rus wasn't returning at least to this thread.

I was wrong to way overstate my point that you, Rus, never actually listen to others. That was a gross overstatement and I was reminded of this with a few threads I happened upon wherein you not only showed that you are okay at listening but you stuck out (way above me, but above most others in such threads) as being the peaceful voice of reason where you point out how the two sides seem to be simply speaking past each other. You carefully show how you consider both positions, the qualities of both sides and proceed, often, to take a side, but not in the reactionary, emotional and even disrespectful way that many others (including myself) were "proving" their side.

Anyway, so I completely retract that statement. I would replace it with what seems to be a truer statement from my (possibly flawed) perspective: You, like anyone have your sacred cows that sometimes make it seem like you are not willing to converse with the other person on. If they don't accept your position on something you seem to value a great deal, then it seems you find little purpose in discussing anything on the topic with them.

To be sure, there is value to that "tactic" (for lack of a better word) and I will employ it to. It often reminds me of the biblical advice not to throw pearls to swine. I can never use that analogy in the moment because it sounds like I am saying the other person is like swine. The point of the analogy is not to insult the other side, but rather to say that it isn't always smart to put energy, effort and resources into a project where the other person isn't even in a place to know how to use it or understand it. So, often, it does make sense that when someone gets argumentative for the sake of arguing to just drop it and not respond.

However, for many of us there is a fine line and sometimes it is important to engage with others arguments even when you see they are grasping at straws because what they are often doing is trying to weed out every last possible argument they might have against a totally new position they had never considered or had always taken for granted that it had to be false.

When you play the "I've been in this longer than you" card or "hey, those who have ears..." card it cuts off the discussion and allows for no more digging because what it essentially says is "I'm done discussing this. Stop challenging my views." You may know that you want the other to stop challenging the views because there's no use, it's purposeless. Truth is what it is so let's stop beating this dead horse... I have said my peace and now I am bored with this conversation. And it may falsely come across to the other side as you're feeling threatened. But the end result is that the other side never really got to fully explore your position. You get it, but he doesn't and he will only understand by throwing everything thing at you and the kitchen sink. lol

I don't know if that made snese, but I guess I am just saying that my advice (rather than criticism, becuase it is totally within your right and sometimes to your spiritual benefit to walk away from a debate) is to stick it out and humor the other person a bit more.

The more revolutionary your position the more others HAVE to fight against it before they can understand it.

Anyway, my thoughts.

God bless. Glad to see you will be sticking around.

Josh

For me, that's often my most useful approach. What happens often when I don't use such an approach but a more peaceful one is that I forget all of the questions that will come back later. I FEEL convinced for a moment and may concede that the other is right... then the next day or in a month I'm like "wait, what about this" because my defenses were down. I wasn't fighting. Often you have to fight like hell for what is wrong until you are able to realize how wrong you are.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
what? You are leaving? no way..budy... You made me read and read your posts *full of wisodom* Made me read CS Lewis for the first time (from your posts in TAW) and your insights in Russia and Russian Orthodoxy are eyeopeners for me :) You ain't going nowhere ;) ya hear??

Do not make me come to Russia to visit ya ;)

Wow.

Greek mommas rate.:D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philothei
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's weird enough that we're having a thread discussing him considering leaving to begin with?:confused:

Please don't leave rus, I appreciate your posts here :) And besides, you don't want us to start a thread called "bring back rus" do you? ;)
 
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hi Gurney,
I'd quickly point out that I have been here for over six years.
My point being that this sort of thread is for the people who have known me (as much as that is possible in this format) for a long time. Those that haven't won't care one way or the other.
I'm not into dramatics. It is a serious consideration. But the cards are pointing to me staying. If some people have really found something useful in my being here, then it isn't just about me, but others as well.

Now is family time. Looks like Josh is going to wait another day...
 
Upvote 0

MKJ

Contributor
Jul 6, 2009
12,260
776
East
✟23,894.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
I think people of other faiths think us to be on a high horse if they hear us sing "We have found the true faith..." (and are no longer open to syncretism or finding truth in other faiths). I guess the question is, can a person think himself really right and not be arrogant in doing so? I don't think I'm anything special - the things I learned I learned by the circumstances of life and God's providence. The way I see it, I am just a jerk, but even a jerk can really know something, be sure of it, and be right where other, better people are wrong. My failing is undoubtedly, to my mind, in communicating the part that I am just a jerk. Also, it has been said that men speak to the topic, and women speak to each other. There may be some ways in which my words may be more likely to bounce off a woman's ears because of that. Just an idea, but I think it not unreasonable or unlikely.
If our perspective is that of the faith being true, of the Church having the authority to teach us and starting from an acknowledgement of the Fall, then it is certainly a perspective we don't want to lose. But do I think others have truth? Certainly. Do I think them all nuts? Not at all. Do I think that a great many of them might have been deceived by the world about certain things? I certainly do, and we as Orthodox Christians certainly do about a great many things.
So what is true and right in your words as they relate to me? Well, I think a lack of care in my words - a failure of charity, in spite of my attempts to speak with charity. What I do is obviously not good enough if you get the impression that I think everybody is nuts.

.....

I think RKO touched on something big. Probably the very best example of this would be a person who, having read some GKC, thinks him to be an anti-semite. And there are such people. And they are wrong. But they HAVE read something, which, as far as they understand it, as far as it appears to them, is (as they understand it) anti-semite. But the person who reads further and looks harder finds clarity - and a clue to that is when you discover how much the Zionists considered him to be an ally, because he really was against ill-treatment of Jews, and really was for them having a homeland of their own - and that clarifies the earlier statements into treating Jews, not as foreign scum to be trashed, but as foreign dignitaries to be honored. Not that I want to hash that all out here, just to say that a quick surface reading can give false impressions, and it turns out that it is our understandings which are mistaken. I have never in all my life, not by any writer been forced to think the way Chesterton forces me to think. And when I do think I find depth, and insight. It's one reason why a couple of books and a few essays are not nearly enough.

But in case anyone has gotten me wrong on this - Chesterton is someone I have enormous admiration for. He is axios. But he is not the Church. It just so happens that what he says on the whole is compatible with and supports Orthodox Church doctrine. It has the tremendous advantage over all Orthodox writers I know of of making sense of how the modern world came to where it is today. We already knew why - sin and the Fall. But how - that is something GKC is a master of making clear. But the Church is first in my mind - it is right where all of us - even GKC - are wrong.
But what's the use of talking about where GKC was wrong if we don't consider where he was right?


I think that these two points are exemplars of what I find most frustrating in your posts. On the one hand the absolute assertion that your view on Chesterton on an issue - in this case antisemitism - is correct. I tend to disagree, having seen the things he printed regularly in G.K.'s Weekly. I don't think this is all that big a deal, or even suprising given his birthdate and birthplace and social class, and I think it is somrthing that he changed on to some extent over time and like many his attitude was quite mixed - but you seem to continually insist that this was a man unable to be sullied or bamboozled in any way by the limitations of his time and place. An unlikely situation - even very great saints in many cases have not managed to do so. I've occasionally wondered if you might actually deny that he was a fat man.:)

And on the issue of being right - yes, even a relative imbecile may be right about important things. The problem of course is that we can never be sure which things we are right or not about - a feeling of surety is no guarantee nor even an assurance of impeccable logic. We are too limited. All of us are, almost undoubtedly, in fact wrong about something we think we are sure about. And I would be a fair sum of money that most of us are in fact wrong about something we are sure is correct and which we consider is of some foundational importance in our thinking.

This being the case, I think it seems to most people that while it is one thing to argue with some gusto for one's position, claims that one knows that one is right on a particular point are simply untenable. Most people find those kinds of claims a real turn-off. It may be that people find what seems to be your view that you are not only sure you are right on these things, but additionally sure you couldn't be wrong, rather difficult to deal with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joshua G.
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Rus, I have considered leaving before as well.

Sure, we're never in the same room physically, but are the ties that we have entangled ourselves in here really so contemptible that we just walk away from them? If it's necessary for our spiritual well-being, then of course, but let's not jump off before considering our "extended family" here. You are very much a part of that family. You would be missed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
PE, you're right, and I didn't mean it like that. It's just that if all I get back is negative - misunderstanding and so on, then something is really wrong.

MK, I really don't feel like defending myself right now, except to say that on issues like GKC and antisemitism, there IS a definite truth and one can dig through the layers to reach the final truth - kind of like in the Harry Potter series - "Is Snape a good guy or a bad guy? Vote now!" Most people throughout the series voted one way because of the impressions and evidence they had - and they were wrong. But someone who read all the way through book seven had all the relevant pieces and really could be right, and know why.

I am quite sure that I don't know everything. What seems to bother you and some others is that I am quite sure about a few things, when you seem to think we ought to be sure of nothing.

A.nyway, I'm burned out on me me me. Maybe if somebody else wants to defend me they can. What I can offer is an analog to Snape's secret
memories:
http://www.chesterton.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/gilbert_12.2_5.pdf

It's their free sample issue and has hordes of stuff on the topic, including a defense of GKC by himself. Ahlquist's defense is rock-solid imo, too.
Maybe a reason for my intense certainty on this might become clear.

I don't think Chesterton was perfect. But it's just like people speaking of Einstein or Shakespeare's imperfections when they only have passing familiarity with their work. The thing people ought to see first is how absolutely remarkable those men were. Sure there is a place for error and imperfection in the discussion, but it should be a very small
place in the overall picture.

'Nuff said. Good night, and God bless!
 
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Uh... wow... that's a bit on the harsh side man. She may not have stated it this way, but there's definitely a place for a self-aware intellectual humility in discussions (esp. online).

Can't we all just hug and get along?
Yea, I was out of line. Pray for me.
 
Upvote 0

Macarius

Progressive Orthodox Christian
Supporter
Jun 18, 2007
3,263
771
The Ivory Tower
✟52,122.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yea, I was out of line. Pray for me.

Well, I think your goal was to encourage our brother Rus (which is admirable).

[sarcasm] Anyhow, I know that I have NEVER said anything out of line or wrong here on TAW, so... you know... [/sarcasm]

Prayers for both of us, yeah?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Photini

Gone.
Jun 24, 2003
8,416
599
✟18,808.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Rus, I don't think you should leave. There is a place here for everyone here.

I don't agree with everything you say, and I don't engage with you too often either because our approach to this board is with completely different goals. I am very casual and don't thrive well in the more "formal" type of interaction that you demand. When I come here to TAW, it is primarily for fellowship and sometimes for information/direction. But you should know that I do read most (if not all) of your posts and I do think about them. I even read some Chesterton because of you. =)

Anyways... when you, MKJ and Macarius exchange thoughts & ideas... I tend to benefit from it. I would miss you.
 
Upvote 0

joyfulthanks

The long day is over. Praise the Lord!
May 4, 2005
4,045
325
✟5,769.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
You probably have no clue who I am, but I've been around TAW on and off for a few years -- a long time ago quite intensively as an inquirer in TAW by the name of contriteheart, and recently more on-and-off as a (now happily Lutheran) lurker. So though you may not know me, I have read many of your posts, and have appreciated them.

Tonight I was reading Orthodoxy (because of your recommendation of Chesterton, incidentally!), and I came upon a quote that I found helpful to me. And in thinking about it, I think it's possible it may be helpful to you, too. It may sound a bit strident at first, but it's not meant to be. I think my comments afterward will clear that up. Here it is:

Oh, I admit that you have your case and have it by heart, and that many things do fit into other things as you say. I admit that your explanation explains a great deal; but what a great deal it leaves out! Are there no other stories in the world except yours; and are all men busy with your business? Suppose we grant the details; perhaps when the man in the street did not seem to see you it was only his cunning; perhaps when the policeman asked you your name it was only because he knew it already. But how much happier you would be if you knew these people cared nothing about you! How much larger your life would be if your self could become smaller in it; if you could really look at other men with common curiosity and pleasure; if you could see them walking as they are in their sunny selfishness and their virile indifference! You would begin to be interested in them, because they were not interested in you. You would break out of this tiny and tawdry theatre in which your own little plot is always being played, and you would find yourself under a freer sky, in a street full of splendid strangers.

Now I grant you that he's talking about a man who suffers from paranoia, and I'm in no way saying that's the case with you...or me! :) What I am saying is that on the whole, people (even people who care for us) for the most part have very little interest in what we think, or know, or believe because they are much more concerned with what they think, or know, or believe. That is just fallen human nature. If we can get past how very offensive it is to our pride (and I mean that word in the best sense), we can be free from a great burden of needing people to hear us and value what we have to say. That then, frees us to freely and joyfully contribute the gifts, knowledge, and experience we have been given by God, without the attached strings of us needing to be heard and agreed with -- which (paradoxically) makes it easier for others to actually hear us and agree with us!

There is a fabulous quote by Thomas a Kempis that I hold dear. It goes like this: "Let not thy peace depend upon the word of men; for whether they judge well or ill of thee, thou art not therefore any other man than thyself."

No one can take from you the gifts, wisdom, and knowledge God has given to you. You are the man you are before God...no more and no less. What you have to contribute is valuable. And it is not less so because it is unacknowledged (or even contradicted) by others at times.

I appreciate you taking the time to read this post from someone you don't know. If it doesn't apply, please disregard it. If it applies just a bit (as a friend of mine likes to say) just "Eat the meat and spit out the bones." And if I'm out of line for posting here at all, I apologize. I'm often well-intentioned, but wrong.

Thank you for who you are and for what you contribute here. I wouldn't be reading Orthodoxy if it wasn't for your recommendation of Chesterton, so if you feel you're not making any headway, take heart, you are. It may be that you just don't always get to see it.

Blessings in Christ to you!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think what you say about the quote below from Chesterton has merit.

Often in this world, we run into the few people who are paranoid, self-centered, and narcissistic. When we try to do them a favor, they might think that we are stalking them because we are paying attention to them. Or worse, they may ignore the good that we do and focus on anything that they can fault us for. This is what can happen when we try to please others.

For example, I was staying at the home of a friend (not to be named) for a week, but his wife took offense when her husband left some pans in the sink soaking. She did not blame her husband, but us for failing to wash her husband's pans immediately after dinner, but those pans were encrusted and needed to soak for at least an hour. When we bought some garbage bags and raked the front yard of its leaves, she complained that we had conspired against her by bringing our old rake from home. Yet, that was a new rake we had just purchased from Lowe's as a gift to her husband. She treated us like her servants and never thanked us for our efforts to help her and her husband, but only gossiped to others against us. In this case, we probably will not stay at their home in the future, but stay at a hotel, yet, we know that the gossip will not end. Thankfully, in our true home, heaven, we will be praising and glorifying God, and not have to worry about small minds.

So, in the end, it only matters that we try to do good with Christ in mind.

You probably have no clue who I am, but I've been around TAW on and off for a few years -- a long time ago quite intensively as an inquirer in TAW by the name of contriteheart, and recently more on-and-off as a (now happily Lutheran) lurker. So though you may not know me, I have read many of your posts, and have appreciated them.

Tonight I was reading Orthodoxy (because of your recommendation of Chesterton, incidentally!), and I came upon a quote that I found helpful to me. And in thinking about it, I think it's possible it may be helpful to you, too. It may sound a bit strident at first, but it's not meant to be. I think my comments afterward will clear that up. Here it is:

Oh, I admit that you have your case and have it by heart, and that many things do fit into other things as you say. I admit that your explanation explains a great deal; but what a great deal it leaves out! Are there no other stories in the world except yours; and are all men busy with your business? Suppose we grant the details; perhaps when the man in the street did not seem to see you it was only his cunning; perhaps when the policeman asked you your name it was only because he knew it already. But how much happier you would be if you knew these people cared nothing about you! How much larger your life would be if your self could become smaller in it; if you could really look at other men with common curiosity and pleasure; if you could see them walking as they are in their sunny selfishness and their virile indifference! You would begin to be interested in them, because they were not interested in you. You would break out of this tiny and tawdry theatre in which your own little plot is always being played, and you would find yourself under a freer sky, in a street full of splendid strangers.
Now I grant you that he's talking about a man who suffers from paranoia, and I'm in no way saying that's the case with you...or me! :) What I am saying is that on the whole, people (even people who care for us) for the most part have very little interest in what we think, or know, or believe because they are much more concerned with what they think, or know, or believe. That is just fallen human nature. If we can get past how very offensive it is to our pride (and I mean that word in the best sense), we can be free from a great burden of needing people to hear us and value what we have to say. That then, frees us to freely and joyfully contribute the gifts, knowledge, and experience we have been given by God, without the attached strings of us needing to be heard and agreed with -- which (paradoxically) makes it easier for others to actually hear us and agree with us!

There is a fabulous quote by Thomas a Kempis that I hold dear. It goes like this: "Let not thy peace depend upon the word of men; for whether they judge well or ill of thee, thou art not therefore any other man than thyself."

No one can take from you the gifts, wisdom, and knowledge God has given to you. You are the man you are before God...no more and no less. What you have to contribute is valuable. And it is not less so because it is unacknowledged (or even contradicted) by others at times.

I appreciate you taking the time to read this post from someone you don't know. If it doesn't apply, please disregard it. If it applies just a bit (as a friend of mine likes to say) just "Eat the meat and spit out the bones." And if I'm out of line for posting here at all, I apologize. I'm often well-intentioned, but wrong.

Thank you for who you are and for what you contribute here. I wouldn't be reading Orthodoxy if it wasn't for your recommendation of Chesterton, so if you feel you're not making any headway, take heart, you are. It may be that you just don't always get to see it.

Blessings in Christ to you!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You gave a clip once where this guy who represented the Chestertonian interrupted small talk and then said "My friend died" and then someone sai "I'm sorry" and he said "why are you sorry". How pedantic of that a-hole. Look death is something that happens but that chestertonian was 100% focused on himself and he knew that in saying that he was going to get that reaction. He also knew that the man wasn't apologizing but using sorry to say "I regret your friend had to die" because death is a sad thing. We beleive that as ORthodox Christians so saying sorry is totally fine.

Josh

I've shied away from your post in general, in part because I do see grains of truth in your words, even though I think the final analysis is a degree of misunderstanding.

But to start with this observation, the one on the video clip...
It seems odd to me that you took it as a formula on how to respond to someone who expresses condolences. Neither I nor the people who made that video suggest that. They are trying to say something, that you evidently missed in taking it as a prescriprion for response, and that something is to point out how people really do avoid the issue of death, that most things, from sports to cars to jewellery tend to replace the topic of the pgilosophy of life and death, and are used to avoid it - that we live in a society that treats it as taboo and a matter of bad taste, and so, in a parodic manner, they were pointing that out. Ithink others who have watched it will confirm that understanding. I believe Mr Jim watched and "got it".

And so I think a number of people misunderstand me on a number of things. The fact that that's how you understood it shows that misunderstandings do happen.

On sacred cows, yes, we all have them. Religion is an obvious one. I'd add as legitimate ones anything on which, on the basis of reason and experience we are thoroughly convinced of and, in the Chestertonian sense, have closed our mind on the solid conclusion. If I am quite sure of something, then listening to contradictory ideas - which have already been considered - and being asked to consider them again and again by various people is something that, on the things we are sure of, are not terribly willing to do, except to try to show why we reject them. Thus, on those few things I am quite sure of - the history of public schools, many things Russian, Chesterton's innocence of antisemitism and so on, I do debate with a closed mind - again, in the sense that seeks to ensure that I have already considered what is being said.

But I do fear the side in me that I see to be semi-autistish, Aspergerish or whatever it is, that both enables me to grasp some things in a flash (and among other things understand Chesterton with increasing ease) and yet blinds me to social effects on others. I often get bored hearing people (even my wonderful mother) spelling out things that I figured out a long time ago, and then I cut them off in my impatience or otherwise somehow trample on their ego like an elephant.

And you really hit a nail on the head with the kitchen sink. I think that's a huge problem for me in trying to talk to other Orthodox Christians (or anyone, really, but I was thinking how we have absolutely all kinds of people in the Church).

The upshot is that I have discovered and understand amazing things, and am desperately eager to share them, and yet, because they ARE deep and a-maze-ing, others don't get me and then I manage to drive them away. I wind up alone. I'm left with not sharing them and small talk, and pining for folk that really understand these thingsn(thinking of Chesterton most of all).
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.