Jehovah's Witnesses

3 Angels Messages · Dec 27, 2011

he-man said:
[/b]David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, You sit on my right hand, Till I make your enemies the footstool of your feet [/size][/font]

God does not sit on the right hand of Himself!

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Ps 35:23 Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.

There are various Hebrew and Greek words so rendered.
2. Heb. ‘adon, means one possessed of absolute control. It denotes a master, as of slaves #Ge 24:14,27 or ruler of his subjects #Ge 45:8 or a husband, as lord of his wife #Ge 18:12 The old plural form of this Hebrew word is _’ adonai_. From a superstitious reverence for the name "Jehovah," the Jews, in reading their Scriptures, whenever that name occurred, always pronounced it _’ Adonai_.

אדני ‘Adonay ad-o-noy’

Yes, YHVH GOD is Lord [Adonai], hence LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS...

The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: ) Acts 10:36

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:1

*John the Baptist
*JESUS CHRIST, THE LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to HIS TEMPLE, even the MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT, whom ye delight in...

...whose temple?, who was the maker and messenger of the covenant?... What does Immanuel [Emmanuel] mean? GOD with us...

Now please consider closely:

The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah. - Psalms 46:7

The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah. - Psalms 46:11

"...shall call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

"...call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." - Matthew 1:23

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: - Jeremiah 31:31

(see also Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 36:27; Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16)

It was Jesus who made that Covenant/Testament and confirmed it by His own promise and blood unto many (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Hebrews 2:3).

Again, there is the FATHER and the SON referenced, two persons, and therefore one [Christ Jesus, GOD the SON, also the Second Adam] can sit on the 'right hand' of the other [GOD the FATHER].

King David is being used as typology.

So, again Thomas clearly reveals it:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28 KJV

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589311-28/#post59390466

he-man · Dec 27, 2011

3 Angels Messages said:
Yes, YHVH GOD is Lord [Adonai], hence LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS...

The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: ) Acts 10:36

Be careful what you say, you are treading on very thin waters. You also forgot to answer how God can sit on His own right hand! and you overlooked this in the last post:

For instance, the Bible says not to go indiscriminately from door to door preaching the gospel or handing out man made literature. A lot of people do exactly what they were told NOT to do.

The apostles were told to go to places where they knew the people were believers and would accept them, when they visited. They also worked for their food, so as not to be a burden to the people they stayed with and it was not for just a drop in "hello-goodbye" thing. They stayed overnight working and sometimes for many days.

Luk 10:7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

We are instructed in regard to those who by trying to justify their position, change what Christ commanded you to do :

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Dr Luke said of Christ when he quoted the Psalms: Did God committ His own Spirit into His own Hands?

Luk 23:46 ..`Father, into Thy hands I commit my spirit;'..

Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast ransomed me, O Jehovah Almighty of truth.

18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

Mat 24:24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, ifit werepossible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Yes, after he died he was made by God, Lord and Christ.

Act 10:36 The word which was sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ: he is Lord of all:
τον λογον ον απεστειλεν τοις υιοις ισραηλ ευαγγελιζομενος ειρηνην δια ιησου χριστου ουτος εστιν παντων κυριος

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

3 Angels Messages said:
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord <H113> whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith Jehovah of hosts. H113 'âdôn 'âdôn
From an unused root (meaning to rule);

3 Angels Messages said:
...whose temple?, who was the maker and messenger of the covenant?... What does Immanuel [Emmanuel] mean? GOD with us...

it means by God

3 Angels Messages said:
Now please consider closely:
The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah. - Psalms 46:7
"...shall call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

Psa 46:7 Jehovah of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
7:14 בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name appointed by God.
prep. by

3 Angels Messages said:
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: - Jeremiah 31:31

Note that it was Jehovah and Not Christ who made the covenant with Israel!

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

3 Angels Messages · Dec 27, 2011

he-man said:
...treading on very thin waters.

Treading on waters?

That was mentioned before...

Again, as seen in Genesis [HOLY SPIRIT], Job [GOD] and the Gospels [JESUS], walks upon the waters... and by the grace of GOD, who being Christ Jesus, the Shepherd, when HE comes in power and glory, to claim those who are HIS, we shall also be standing on the 'sea' of glass mingled with fire...

he-man said:
You also forgot to answer how God can sit on His own right hand!

No, look again. It was answered, but it was not understood.

The SON, sits on the right hand of the FATHER. Even as the FATHER hath said unto the SON, "Thy Throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom." [Psalms 45:6; Hebrews 1:8;p]

he-man said:
and you overlooked this in the last post:

For instance, the Bible says not to go indiscriminately from door to door preaching the gospel or handing out man made literature. A lot of people do exactly what they were told NOT to do.

The apostles were told to go to places where they knew the people were believers and would accept them, when they visited. They also worked for their food, so as not to be a burden to the people they stayed with and it was not for just a drop in "hello-goodbye" thing. They stayed overnight working and sometimes for many days.

Luk 10:7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Perhaps, another look is needed? I understand how, with all of the quote breaks, something can be missed, but it has been given:

"As for the door to door, house to house, that was already addressed earlier in the thread, and Luke 10, is way before Christ Jesus died, was buried, rose and ascended and gave the great commission, for the 70 weeks of Daniel were not yet completed in Luke 10, but in Acts [stoning of Stephen] they [the full 70 weeks] were over:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589.../#post58887185" [from - http://www.christianforums.com/t7589311-28/#post59390020 ]

Additionally, that subject [of door to door] is not the subject that we have been discussing.

But since it is brought up, for any who are interested in such ministry:

AFCOE - Amazing Facts Center of Evangelism
WeimarTV Broadcast

he-man said:
We are instructed in regard to those who by trying to justify their position, change what Christ commanded you to do :

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Dr Luke said of Christ when he quoted the Psalms: Did God committ His own Spirit into His own Hands?

Luk 23:46 ..`Father, into Thy hands I commit my spirit;'..

Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast ransomed me, O Jehovah Almighty of truth.

18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

The SON committed HIMSELF into HIS FATHER's hands.

BTW, earlier CHRIST JESUS hath said,
"... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46;p [see also Mark 15:34;p and Psalms 22:1].

Not only is that a perfect reference to Psalms 22, it is a perfect reference to the FATHER ["my GOD"] and the HOLY SPIRIT ["my GOD"]. Thus the Tri-in-Unity is again witnessed, for GOD manifest in the flesh [the SON] was upon the Cross. Again, YHVH GOD, Tri-in-Unity, for the salvation of man.

Love - manifest.

he-man said:
Mat 24:24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, ifit werepossible, they shall deceive the very elect.

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Luke 21:8

Look closely. What is in brackets? Christ Jesus then actually said, "Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am..."

MY NAME - I AM.

he-man said:
Yes, after he died he was made by God, Lord and Christ.

[*color added for emphasis]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... what??? Please reconsider with me. Look again at the context Acts 2:36 [it does not say anything about "after"]... and also look at the following...

The scripture in Daniel is clear on when Jesus is Anointed [Christ/Messiah] and it was at the river Jordan, when He was about 30 years of age [AD 27;even as typology revealed he had to be], being 483 years from 457 BC [the dated decree given from Daniel 9:24-27 and Ezra 7]. Christ Jesus preached for 3 1/2 years until AD 31, and He dies upon the Cross [as "King of the Jews"], and then the disciples continue preaching exclusively to the Jews [to confirm the covenant; Hebrews 2:3] for 3 1/2 for years until the council rejects Stephen in AD 34. The 70 weeks ends [490 years of Daniel] and the remaining 1810 years from the 2300 day/years continued... [Daniel 8:14].

Christ Jesus was already Lord, and many times addressed as such:

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Corinthians 2:8

And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither. Mark 11:3

Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. John 13:13

etc, etc...

he-man said:
Act 10:36 The word which was sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ: he is Lord of all:
τον λογον ον απεστειλεν τοις υιοις ισραηλ ευαγγελιζομενος ειρηνην δια ιησου χριστου ουτος εστιν παντων κυριος

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord <H113> whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith Jehovah of hosts. H113 'âdôn 'âdôn
From an unused root (meaning to rule);
it means by God

Psa 46:7 Jehovah of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
7:14 בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name appointed by God.
prep. byNote that it was Jehovah and Not Christ who made the covenant with Israel!

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Indeed, for JESUS is YHVH GOD [the SON] who made that covenant. The Book of Hebrews [yea, even the whole Bible] proves it.

Which brings me right back to:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

he-man · Dec 28, 2011

3 Angels Messages said:
Treading on waters?
That was mentioned before...Again, as seen in Genesis [HOLY SPIRIT], Job [GOD] and the Gospels [JESUS], walks upon the waters... and by the grace of GOD, who being Christ Jesus, the Shepherd, when HE comes in power and glory, to claim those who are HIS, we shall also be standing on the 'sea' of glass mingled with fire...No, look again. It was answered, but it was not understood.
The SON, sits on the right hand of the FATHER. Even as the FATHER hath said unto the SON, "Thy Throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom." [Psalms 45:6; Hebrews 1:8;p]

How can God sit on His own right hand?

3 Angels Messages said:
Perhaps, another look is needed?"As for the door to door, house to house, that was already addressed earlier in the thread, and Luke 10, is way before Christ Jesus died, was buried, rose and ascended and gave the great commission, for the 70 weeks of Daniel were not yet completed in Luke 10, but in Acts [stoning of Stephen] they [the full 70 weeks] were over:

Whose Kingdom is it?

Matthew 26:27-29
(27) Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. (28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

OK Let us look at other scripture:
אתם עדי נאם-יהוה ועבדי אשר בחרתי למען תדעו ותאמינו לי ותבינו כי-אני הוא לפני לא-נוצר אל ואחרי לא יהיה
Which Hebrew words do you not agree with and tell me what the word or words should mean in the following:
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

אנכי אנכי יהוה ואין מבלעדי מושיע
11 I am GOD; and without1 me there is no saviour.
1* Hebrew מבלעדי without

אל-תפחדו ואל-תרהו הלא מאז השמעתיך והגדתי ואתם עדי היש אלוה מבלעדי ואין צור בל-ידעתי
Is 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

כה-אמר יהוה מלך-ישראל וגאלו יהוה צבאות אני ראשון ואני אחרון ומבלעדי אין אלהים
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.

אני יהוה ואין עוד זולתי אין אלהים אאזרך ולא ידעתני אני יהוה ואין עוד זולתי אין אלהים אאזרך ולא ידעתני
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
כי כה אמר-יהוה בורא השמים הוא האלהים יצר הארץ ועשה הוא כוננה לא-תהו בראה לשבת יצרה אני יהוה ואין עוד
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

הגידו והגישו אף יועצו יחדו מי השמיע זאת מקדם מאז הגידה הלוא אני יהוה ואין-עוד אלהים מבלעדי אל-צדיק ומושיע אין זולתי
prep. except, but for, besides

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

Do you work and labor day and night to earn your keep while you spend 2 or 3 days with other believers?

3 Angels Messages said:
The SON committed HIMSELF into HIS FATHER's hands.

You bet he did and he died and was in the grave for 3 days!

3 Angels Messages said:
BTW, earlier CHRIST JESUS hath said,"... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46;p [see also Mark 15:34;p and Psalms 22:1].

Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, λαμαζαβαφθανι? which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?"

3 Angels Messages said:
Not only is that a perfect reference to Psalms 22, it is a perfect reference to the FATHER ["my GOD"] and the HOLY SPIRIT ["my GOD"]. Thus the Tri-in-Unity is again witnessed, for GOD manifest in the flesh [the SON] was upon the Cross. Again, YHVH GOD, Tri-in-Unity, for the salvation of man.

A Psalm of David. » My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my crying? !

3 Angels Messages said:
"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am..."

3 Angels Messages said:
MY NAME - I AM.

ειμι eimi And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, and saying to be the Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Pay attention to the Bible and not what Rutherford says and Neither go door to door looking for him and wandering about tossed by every whim and notion!

3 Angels Messages said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa... what??? Please reconsider with me. Look again at the context Acts 2:36 [it does not say anything about "after"]... and also look at the following...
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. John 13:13

Ye call me teacher and master: and ye say well; for it is to be.

3 Angels Messages · Dec 30, 2011

he-man said:
How can God sit on His own right hand?

The SON sits upon the right hand of the FATHER, since each is a person. Asked and Answered. I refer you back to those posts.

he-man said:
Whose Kingdom is it? Matthew 26:27-29
(27) Then He took the cup, ... until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Only citing portions of scripture is dangerous, let us look further at the scriptures...

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1:13

I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. 2 Timothy 4:1

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen. 2 Timothy 4:8

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. Psalms 45:6

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Matthew 13:41

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Matthew 20:21

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:33

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Luke 19:15

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:30

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

he-man said:
OK Let us look at other scripture:
אתם עדי נאם-יהוה ועבדי אשר בחרתי למען תדעו ותאמינו לי ותבינו כי-אני הוא לפני לא-נוצר אל ואחרי לא יהיה
Which Hebrew words do you not agree with and tell me what the word or words should mean in the following:
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD... : before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

אנכי אנכי יהוה ואין מבלעדי מושיע
11 I am GOD; and without1 me there is no saviour.
1* Hebrew מבלעדי without

אל-תפחדו ואל-תרהו הלא מאז השמעתיך והגדתי ואתם עדי היש אלוה מבלעדי ואין צור בל-ידעתי
Is 44:8 Fear ye not ... . Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

כה-אמר יהוה מלך-ישראל וגאלו יהוה צבאות אני ראשון ואני אחרון ומבלעדי אין אלהים
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.

אני יהוה ואין עוד זולתי אין אלהים אאזרך ולא ידעתני אני יהוה ואין עוד זולתי אין אלהים אאזרך ולא ידעתני
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
כי כה אמר-יהוה בורא השמים הוא האלהים יצר הארץ ועשה הוא כוננה לא-תהו בראה לשבת יצרה אני יהוה ואין עוד
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

הגידו והגישו אף יועצו יחדו מי השמיע זאת מקדם מאז הגידה הלוא אני יהוה ואין-עוד אלהים מבלעדי אל-צדיק ומושיע אין זולתי
prep. except, but for, besides

Isa 45:21 ... not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

Since JESUS is GOD the SON [as shown by numerous texts], there is no contradiction. There is no GOD other than YHVH GOD, for YHVH GOD is 'one' YHVH, that is three persons, FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT united in character, in love, etc.

Thank you for quoting the texts which reveal that JESUS is indeed YHVH GOD.

he-man said:
Do you work and labor day and night to earn your keep while you spend 2 or 3 days with other believers?

What does this have to do with the current subject? I keep asking... but in answer, yes I work and labor in ministry and earn my keep in the place that GOD has prepared for me, and I am surrounded by other believers of like faith, since I work in ministry. I hope that this answers your question.

he-man said:
You bet he did and he died and was in the grave for 3 days!

Yes, Christ Jesus was dead [for humanity died] and in the tomb, for those 3 days, that being [aka] 'friday' afternoon [6th day, preparation day], all day the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy GOD [aka 'saturday'] [resting in redemption, as HE had in Creation, linking Creation/Redemption forever!] and for the first part of the first day of the week [aka 'sunday'] rising sometime very early before sunrise.

This was foretold specifically in prophecy and in typology.

he-man said:
Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, λαμαζαβαφθανι? which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?"A Psalm of David. » My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my crying? !ειμι eimi And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, and saying to be the Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Jesus Christ, GOD manifest in the flesh] [human flesh and blood] became sin for us [2 Corinthians 5:21]. Sin separates.

The FATHER was still there, shrouded in darkness, unseen from mortal eyes, and CHRIST JESUS died in perfect faith, trusting to the FATHER.

Christ Jesus was experiencing the wrath for a transgressed ETERNAL LAW. HE, suffered in our stead. BTW, the Cross proves the immutability of the Ten Commandments. They cannot be altered, changed, abrogated, done away, etc. The 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy GOD [who is your GOD?] stands as surely as does the commandment against murder, theft, etc.

You say that YHVH GOD is your GOD, you Creator and Redeemer, but you do not honour HIS day, that HE sanctified, blessed, and made Holy, in which HE HIMSELF rested in. Who is your Creator? Who is you Redeemer? Who is your GOD? You say you worship YHVH, but what is the evidence?

Do you set up your own righteousness, your own commandments? Can you be holy apart from the ways of GOD?

Turn unto the LIVING GOD!

I suggest re-reading the passage again:

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Luke 21:8

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many. Mark 13:6

Look at the Greek.

In two, out of three passages, the word [christos] is not present, for only in Matthew 24:5 does it say Christ. So, HE said both. Christ is also not a name, it is a title. YHVH, who is the I AM, is a name.

Many would come in HIS name, I AM [there are many that are doing this]. and also come saying that they were the Christ [there are many that are doing this].

he-man said:
Pay attention to the Bible and not what Rutherford says

I suggest the same in return for the first portion, and as to the latter portion, I have already said previously, I am not a Jehovah's Witness, nor follow Rutherford, nor the Watchtower and Tract Society, nor any man on this earth, for I follow CHRIST JESUS.

I am Seventh Day Adventist, by the Grace, Power and Love of JESUS CHRIST, GOD the SON.

he-man said:
and Neither go door to door looking for him and wandering about tossed by every whim and notion!

I am not the one who is quoting philosophies [of Newton], and the writings of other men [Snobelen] for evidence of a position, and scripture has been my position.

The Word of GOD is my Rock, all else is sand.

he-man said:
Ye call me teacher and master: and ye say well; for it is to be.

Christ Jesus said, Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. John 13:13

umeiV fwneite me o didaskaloV kai o kurioV kai kalwV legete eimi gar John 13:13

Teaher and Lord.

Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. Exodus 4:12

Good and upright [is] the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way. Psalms 25:8

Jesus said, I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life.

The SON teaches, the HOLY SPIRIT teaches and the FATHER teaches.

3 Angels Messages · Dec 30, 2011

he-man · Dec 31, 2011

3 Angels Messages said:
The SON sits upon the right hand of the FATHER, since each is a person. Asked and Answered. I refer you back to those posts.Only citing portions of scripture is dangerous, let us look further at the scriptures...

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1:13

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Matthew 20:21

You make no sense, Christ will rule until GOD has placed all enemies under his feet
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

3 Angels Messages said:
Since JESUS is GOD the SON [as shown by numerous texts], there is no contradiction.

ואחרי לא יהיה
Which Hebrew words do you not agree with and tell me what the word or words should mean in the following:
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD... : before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

3 Angels Messages said:
Yes, Christ Jesus was dead [for humanity died] and in the tomb, for those 3 days, that being [aka] 'friday' afternoon [6th day, preparation day], all day the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy GOD [aka 'saturday'] [resting in redemption, as HE had in Creation, linking Creation/Redemption forever!] and for the first part of the first day of the week [aka 'sunday'] rising sometime very early before sunrise.

Why did he need help and from whom?
Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, Eloi, λαμα ζαβαφθανι? which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from helping me?"

3 Angels Messages said:
Look at the Greek. In two, out of three passages, the word [christos] is not present, for only in Matthew 24:5 does it say Christ. So, HE said both. Christ is also not a name, it is a title. YHVH, who is the I AM, is a name.

Take a LOOK
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
4 και αποκριθεις ο ις ειπεν αυτοις βλεπετε μη τις ϋμας πλανηση
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall deceive many.
5 πολλοι γαρ ελευσοντε επι τω ονοματι μου λεγοντεϲ εγω ειμι ο χς και πολλουϲ πλανησουσιν

3 Angels Messages · Jan 1, 2012

he-man said:
You make no sense...

No, please consider with me, that it deals with the two natures of JESUS CHRIST, GOD and Man.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15

As GOD [the SON], JESUS is above all creation, before all things; GOD, eternal [even with the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT], LORD of ALL, etc. DEITY which cannot die, which cannot be tempted.

...but HE [JESUS], "being in the form of GOD", "the express image of HIS [the FATHER's] person", also at some point "took on the form of a servant" and "humbled HIMSELF" and was "made of a woman", etc.

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:3

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Philippians 2:7

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:8

As Man [the Second Adam; human which can die, which can be tempted], JESUS was given a name above every name:

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Philippians 2:9

... and a kingdom, and power and glory, etc. So that which was given Him, as the Head of all Men [Second Adam], when all things are subdued under His feet, then will He [as Man] would deliver up that which was given...

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28:18

Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24

You see, Adam [the first] was given dominion, but he forfeited it to Satan, but Christ Jesus [the Second Adam; our kinsman redeemer] got it back.

Christ Jesus is our Mediator.

Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one. Galatians 3:20

Paul is partially quoting Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29.

The other questions have been answered already, and I refer back to those posts.

Now let us please consider another evidence:

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Genesis 4:26 KJV

Hebrew Genesis 4:26 ולשׁת גם־הוא ילד־בן ויקרא את־שׁמו אנושׁ אז הוחל לקרא בשׁם יהוה׃

kai tw shq egeneto uios epwnomasen de to onoma autou enws outos hlpisen epikaleisqai to onoma kuriou tou qeou Genesis 4:26 LXX

Now let us consider:

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:13

I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:17

For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. Zephaniah 3:9

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Now please consider:

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV

th ekklhsia tou qeou th oush en korinqw hgiasmenoiV en cristw ihsou klhtoiV agioiV sun pasin toiV epikaloumenoiV to onoma tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou en panti topw autwn te kai hmwn 1 Corinthians 1:2 Greek 1550 Stephens Textus Receptus

he-man · Jan 1, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
No, please consider with me, that it deals with the two natures of JESUS CHRIST, GOD and Man.

Christ had only ONE nature until he was resurrected!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

(4) to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

(5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

(6) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,

Heb 1:4 Having become so much superior to the angels, as he has by inheritance a more diverse1 name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, You are my Son, this day have I created2 thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Php 2:6 Who, being in the figure1 of God, thought it not grasping2 to lead3 to be similar4 to God:

7 But himself, he was completely lacking5, and clinged6 to the figure of a slave, and became in likeness of men:

8 And he having been found in the form as a man, he humbled himself, and became subject1 up to death, and the death of the stake.

Gal 3:20 ο δε μεσιτης ενος ουκ εστιν ο δε θεος εις εστιν
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not one, but God is one.

Mar 12:29 απεκριθη ο ιησους οτι πρωτη εστιν ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
Mr 12:29 Jesus answered, The first to be is, Hear, 0 Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Teacher, well, you have spoken, in truth: That there is One; and there is not another except Him:

Ge 4:26 ולשת גם-הוא ילד-בן ויקרא את-שמו אנוש אז הוחל לקרא בשם יהוה
Ge 4:26 And to Seth, to him was born a son; and he called his name Enos: thus humans started to call upon the name of Jehovah.

Psa 116:13 כוס-ישועות אשא ובשם יהוה אקרא
Psa 116:13 I will lift up the cup of salvation, and call on the name of Jehovah.

Rom 1:7 πασιν τοις ουσιν εν ρωμη αγαπητοις θεου κλητοις αγιοις χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου
Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God the Father of us, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

1Co 1:2 τη εκκλησια του θεου τη ουση εν κορινθω ηγιασμενοις εν χριστω ιησου κλητοις αγιοις συν πασιν τοις επικαλουμενοις το ονομα του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου εν παντι τοπω αυτων και ημων
1Co 1:2 Unto the congregation of God which being at Corinth, to them that are set apart in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of Jesus Christ, in every location, our Lord and theirs

The Gregorian · Jan 3, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Indeed, for JESUS is YHVH GOD [the SON] who made that covenant. The Book of Hebrews [yea, even the whole Bible] proves it.

So... how in the world do you get that Jesus is YHVH? YHVH has been shown throughout the hebrew scriptures to be the all-powerful God... whereas Jesus repeatedly prays to this all-powerful God for guidance, was sent by his Father, and specifically stated that the Father was greater than him. How do you get that they're the same person?

Also, I've been out of the conversation a while, but I'm assuming you're a trinitarian... but I'm assuming you're a trinitarian? If you believe that YHVH is Jesus... where is the Father in the bible? Do you believe that the Father is entirely excluded from the book and that every reference to diety is the Son?

3 Angels Messages · Jan 3, 2012

The Gregorian said:
So... how in the world do you get that Jesus is YHVH? YHVH has been shown throughout the hebrew scriptures to be the all-powerful God... whereas Jesus repeatedly prays to this all-powerful God for guidance, was sent by his Father, and specifically stated that the Father was greater than him. How do you get that they're the same person?

Also, I've been out of the conversation a while, but I'm assuming you're a trinitarian... but I'm assuming you're a trinitarian? If you believe that YHVH is Jesus... where is the Father in the bible? Do you believe that the Father is entirely excluded from the book and that every reference to diety is the Son?

Hello Gregorian,

Our PM conversation is still available, if that is you would like to continue it.

The discussion upon the nature of Christ Jesus has been ongoing for some time now, with a great deal of scripture already covered, and if you are interested in taking a look at what has been so far presented, please consider the following link and posts:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589311-29/#post59418829

I hope that it will be considered, please take your time, so that the subject does not have to be entirely repeated, but I do not mind covering certain portions again if something needs to be further investigated.

To answer the first question: "So... how in the world do you get that Jesus is YHVH?", please follow the above link and that which is therein. It will thoroughly answer this question, I hope to your satisfaction.

To address the first part of the first statement: "YHVH has been shown throughout the hebrew scriptures to be the all-powerful God...", this is true and has been fully acknowledged, but in the definition of who YHVH is, it also includes the SON, JESUS CHRIST [even as it also does the HOLY SPIRIT]. Again, please see above link and that which is therein for further explanation.

To address the second part of the first statement: "...whereas Jesus repeatedly prays to this all-powerful God for guidance, was sent by his Father, and specifically stated that the Father was greater than him.", in order to understand this aspect and nature of JESUS CHRIST, we must again look at many texts which reveal that CHRIST JESUS, existing before he took on the fallen nature of mankind, even in the likeness of sinful flesh [I know that that statement may start a whole new range of questions, but we can discuss this as well, even necessarily so], is without beginning or end, GOD [that is YHVH the SON]. In His humanity, veiling His Divinity, He relied wholly upon the FATHER through the HOLY SPIRIT, though in certain instances Divinity flashed forth in Humanity and it could be seen and witnessed. He did indeed rely upon, GOD, that is GOD, the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS rested by faith in the FATHER's care, and upon His wisdom and strength. JESUS was indeed sent, that of His own free choice and will, they three, being united together in purpose, character, love to save mankind, their creation, but they are three persons. In order to understand how the FATHER is greater than JESUS, several scriptures must be considered to really see the full scope of that statement. Greater is not speaking of His nature [for instance, a biological parent is not greater in nature [that of humanity] than the child. Both are equally human.], additionally, the term greater is not even denoting a difference in ages, but in order to see what it is denoting, please see the above link and material already presented therein. I would please ask that this be done before continuing further, so as not to have whole repetitions.

To answer the second question: "How do you get that they're the same person?", it must be known that this is generally the first repsonse, and is the common starting misunderstanding of the Jehovah's Witness persons with whom I have had the pleasure of dialoguing with. Please allow me to share that there are three distinct persons, yet they are 'one' LORD [YHVH][that is of character, love, one in mind, one in heart, one in holiness and justice, and purity, and one in the work of seeking to save the sinful race, etc.], all three of which share the name YHVH, ["in the name of..."; definite article, singular name], FATHER, SON and the HOLY SPIRIT [multiple, that is to say plural, distinct persons in unity...].

To answer the third statement/question: "Also, I've been out of the conversation a while, but I'm assuming you're a trinitarian... but I'm assuming you're a trinitarian?", I understand in the absence things may have been missed, so please use the link provdied to kind of get the overall picture of what has transpired in that absence. Having thoroughly studied the subject in the scriptures [even from scratch, building precept upon precept and line upon line], I can unequivocally say that GOD is "Tri-in-Unity", that is to say, Three distinct persons which are one in purpose, love, etc, but not in person. Thank you for asking, as I do not mind sharing this, or speaking upon the subject, especially from the scriptures.

To answer the fourth question: "If you believe that YHVH is Jesus... where is the Father in the bible?", Both are YHVH, YHVH the FATHER and YHVH the SON, even also YHVH the HOLY SPIRIT. They are all three in scripture and can be seen, witnessed, etc in various places of the scripture. Genesis 1, is a good place to begin, or Daniel, or Gospels, or Revelation, etc.

To answer the last question: "Do you believe that the Father is entirely excluded from the book and that every reference to diety is the Son?", No, the FATHER is not entirely excluded from the scriptures and is indeed witnessed several times throughout. Please see the previous answer for futher areas to consider.

I hope that these answers have helped in even a small way to answer those questions and comments. Good to hear from you Gregorian, I hope that we can continue in dialogue, whether here or in PM again. Thank you.

The Gregorian · Jan 4, 2012

I apologize for slacking on our PM conversation 3 Angels. Work's been crazy, moving, and a couple computer crashes later, things are getting shuffled around.

However, for this conversation, it seems like the root of nearly all of these assumptions is that Jesus is YHWH based on John 8:58. Which... yes... is often translated into english "Before Abraham was, I am." However, this has absolutely nothing to do with YHWH. The context is that Jesus made a comment that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad"... Then said the Jews to him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" To which Jesus replied "amen, amen, lego humin prin abraam genesthai ego eimi."

This is a very simple response meaning "So be it, so be it, I'm telling you that before abraham came into being, I have been." This is still a significant statement in that he's saying he's older than abraham, thus HE has lived since before his human incarnation... which is quite shocking. However the greek phrase of "I am" or "I have been" of "ego eimi" is in no way the hebrew phrase used by God in the burning bush in Exodus 3:14. My wife's the one who speaks hebrew, so I can't translate as well as her, however, the verse translated as "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" Is more accurately translated "And God told moses: 'I shall prove to be who I shall prove to be. Therefore you shell tell the sons of Israel that the one who will show himself has sent you.'"

The "Asher Ayah Asher" part is not God's name. Moses asked who he should say sent him, and God essentially told him "You'll see. I'll show myself."

This is completely independent from Jesus' claim to have pre-existed Abraham. And this CERTAINLY doesn't mean that the two are interchangeable.

The Gregorian · Jan 4, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
To answer the fourth question: "If you believe that YHVH is Jesus... where is the Father in the bible?", Both are YHVH, YHVH the FATHER and YHVH the SON, even also YHVH the HOLY SPIRIT. They are all three in scripture and can be seen, witnessed, etc in various places of the scripture. Genesis 1, is a good place to begin, or Daniel, or Gospels, or Revelation, etc.

I see. Perhaps you're equating the name "YHWH" with the title "elohim?" Could you tell me how you interpret Jeremiah 16:21?

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/jer16.pdf

I can agree with you that both the Father and Son are divine/mighty beings, elohim/theos. However, El Shiddai (Almighty God, the Father) specifically states that by all his might, we shall know that YHWH is his personal name. Not a title to be shared. Meanwhile, elohim is a title that can be shared with angels, or even mighty men and even the greek title "theos" (although not "ton theon") is shared with the Son. But not the name YHWH (Jehovah).

he-man · Jan 4, 2012

The Gregorian said:
I see. Perhaps you're equating the name "YHWH" with the title "elohim?" Could you tell me how you interpret Jeremiah 16:21?

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/jer16.pdf

I can agree with you that both the Father and Son are divine/mighty beings, elohim/theos. However, El Shiddai (Almighty God, the Father) specifically states that by all his might, we shall know that YHWH is his personal name. Not a title to be shared. Meanwhile, elohim is a title that can be shared with angels, or even mighty men and even the greek title "theos" (although not "ton theon") is shared with the Son. But not the name YHWH (Jehovah).

לכן הנני מודיעם בפעם הזאת אודיעם את-ידי ואת-גבורתי וידעו כי-שמי יהוה
H3068 יהוה
yehôvâh From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah

20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is (the) self Existent [Jehovah]

Jer 16:21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might;
and they shall know that my name is The LORD.

Hey! Christ had only ONE nature until he was resurrected!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

(4) to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

(5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

(6) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,

Heb 1:4 Having become so much superior to the angels, as he has by inheritance a more diverse1 name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, You are my Son, this day have I created2 thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Php 2:6 Who, being in the figure1 of God, thought it not grasping2 to lead3 to be similar4 to God:

7 But himself, he was completely lacking5, and clinged6 to the figure of a slave, and became in likeness of men:

8 And he having been found in the form as a man, he humbled himself, and became subject1 up to death, and the death of the stake.

Gal 3:20 ο δε μεσιτης ενος ουκ εστιν ο δε θεος εις εστιν
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not one, but God is one.

Mar 12:29 απεκριθη ο ιησους οτι πρωτη εστιν ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
Mr 12:29 Jesus answered, The first to be is, Hear, 0 Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Teacher, well, you have spoken, in truth: That there is One; and there is not another except Him:

Ge 4:26 ולשת גם-הוא ילד-בן ויקרא את-שמו אנוש אז הוחל לקרא בשם יהוה
Ge 4:26 And to Seth, to him was born a son; and he called his name Enos: thus humans started to call upon the name of Jehovah.

Psa 116:13 כוס-ישועות אשא ובשם יהוה אקרא
Psa 116:13 I will lift up the cup of salvation, and call on the name of Jehovah.

Rom 1:7 πασιν τοις ουσιν εν ρωμη αγαπητοις θεου κλητοις αγιοις χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου
Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God the Father of us, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

1Co 1:2 τη εκκλησια του θεου τη ουση εν κορινθω ηγιασμενοις εν χριστω ιησου κλητοις αγιοις συν πασιν τοις επικαλουμενοις το ονομα του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου εν παντι τοπω αυτων και ημων
1Co 1:2 Unto the congregation of God which being at Corinth, to them that are set apart in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of Jesus Christ, in every location, our Lord and theirs

3 Angels Messages · Jan 5, 2012

The Gregorian said:
...

However, for this conversation, it seems like the root of nearly all of these assumptions is that Jesus is YHWH based on John 8:58. Which... yes... is often translated into english "Before Abraham was, I am." However, this has absolutely nothing to do with YHWH. The context is that Jesus made a comment that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad"... Then said the Jews to him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" To which Jesus replied "amen, amen, lego humin prin abraam genesthai ego eimi."

The Gregorian said:
This is a very simple response meaning "So be it, so be it, I'm telling you that before abraham came into being, I have been." This is still a significant statement in that he's saying he's older than abraham, thus HE has lived since before his human incarnation... which is quite shocking. However the greek phrase of "I am" or "I have been" of "ego eimi" is in no way the hebrew phrase used by God in the burning bush in Exodus 3:14. My wife's the one who speaks hebrew, so I can't translate as well as her, however, the verse translated as "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" Is more accurately translated "And God told moses: 'I shall prove to be who I shall prove to be. Therefore you shell tell the sons of Israel that the one who will show himself has sent you.'"

The "Asher Ayah Asher" part is not God's name. Moses asked who he should say sent him, and God essentially told him "You'll see. I'll show myself."

This is completely independent from Jesus' claim to have pre-existed Abraham. And this CERTAINLY doesn't mean that the two are interchangeable.

[combined messages]

I see. Perhaps you're equating the name "YHWH" with the title "elohim?" Could you tell me how you interpret Jeremiah 16:21?

[Broken Link - removed]

I can agree with you that both the Father and Son are divine/mighty beings, elohim/theos. However, El Shiddai (Almighty God, the Father) specifically states that by all his might, we shall know that YHWH is his personal name. Not a title to be shared. Meanwhile, elohim is a title that can be shared with angels, or even mighty men and even the greek title "theos" (although not "ton theon") is shared with the Son. But not the name YHWH (Jehovah).

Hello Gregorian,

No worries about the replies... but I hope that it can be picked up again?

The assumption of this statement, "...it seems like the root of nearly all of these assumptions is that Jesus is YHWH based on John 8:58...", is incorrect. For, all of scripture is used [referring to the link provided] to corrborate the words of the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT, as well as the Prophets, and Apostles/Disciples, since each has proclaimed the SON, as GOD, being YHVH. John 8:58 and surrounding context is additional evidence amongst the myriad of other witnesses, for it is one instance where JESUS clearly witnesses of HIMSELF as the great I AM of the OT. Quoting the passage in the greek does not reduce the potentcy of John 8:58, but strengthens it, and along with the surrounding context, was addressed as a package.

Looking again,

[Septuagint; LXX ] shows: και ειπεν ο θεος προς Μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις Ισραηλ ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας. Exodus 3:14 [LXX];

eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi John 8:58 [Greek 1550 Textus Receptus]

Also, out of the 134 times that “ego eimi” is used in the NWT it is correctly translated as “I AM” 133 times, but when it comes to the John 8:58 passage, the translation suddenly diverges from all of its previous renditions where it is clearly in reference to JESUS being the “I AM” [YHVH GOD]. Even within the very chapter of John 8, there are other direct comparisions to be made in the Greek, even unto the LXX passages being referenced, but just looking at the NWT a moment:

John 8:12;p [NWT]: I am the light of the world.

John 8:18 [NWT]: I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”

John 8:24 [NWT] [a very important statement, for notice where the [brackets] are located, and what Jesus is actually saying, for [brackets] indicate something here that the word [he] is added and not in the Greek, and in this instance, of extreme importance, for it touches on salvation...]: Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins.”

John 8:24;p [NWT] [again notice the [brackets] and what is not actually there in the Greek..., again touching upon salvation]: Therefore Jesus said: “When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he] ...

etc...

The "I have been" was addressed in the previous link [Original Links]. It does not read this way, but rather "I AM", and there is an infinite difference in the two. For instance, "I have been" is merely stating a pre-existence, and not necessarily eternal, while "I AM" is always in existence, that being Eternal, without end. Also, there are numerous other passages which can be cited as direct evidence for this translation of "I AM", from either the Greek, or NWT itself in the same locality of the Gospel of John. Also, how the "I AM" is contrasted to "Abraham was", is signifcant.

Within the Kingdom Interlinear Translation [another translation which is sometimes used, purple cover edition 1969: "properly rendered in the perfect tense.], it also shows the "I AM" as it renders in the Greek itself [before it then rephrases it on the right-hand margin; KIT]:

Of which you seem to also acknowledge [bold/underline added for highlight], "...John 8:58. Which... yes... is often translated into english "Before Abraham was, I am."..."

That JESUS lived before Abraham, may have been somewhat shocking to some at first, but not really so, since the Jews had funny ideas to begin with [such as King Herod, who believed in reincarnation, he thought Jesus was John the Baptist reborn...], but it was the declaration of HIMSELF as the great I AM which really stirred them up.

This statement of "I AM" has everything to do with YHVH, for it is full testimony from the mouth of CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF, that HE is the I AM of the OT, the very one upon Mt. Sinai who stood before Moses...

Link Back

Again, quoting the Hebrew, even from the Hebrew translation [Ex 3 Mechon-Mamre], it does indeed read "I AM that I AM", along with the LXX and comparisons of the NT Greek and intratestamental [I AM, Intra], we can see perfect harmony there.

And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel ... they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? Exodus 3:13;p

They [as Moses said] will question, saying, "What [is] his name?"

The Name is not merely designation in scripture, as we know, for it denotes the very character of the person, even as we can see additionally in Exodus 34:4-8.

But, as we see, then comes the answer that GOD would have Moses give in response to the question that they would ask [HE already knowing that they would ask it, and so the response is prefectly given]:

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.Exodus 3:14

It is given twice, "I AM THAT I AM" and even "I AM". So, as we see, it is not as earlier indicated, ""You'll see. I'll show myself."", for GOD had given them something extremely important to consider in giving them this answer... The Self-Existant GOD, the one who IS.

As for Elohim, YHVH is YHVH [and when used in conjuction, means GOD and only GOD, that of FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT, especially when used at Creation [not shared with angelic host here], as the previous link showed], and Genesis is interesting in why it speaks the way it does, but perhaps later. YHVH, of course is not merely a title shared [like unto the tile "King"], but as was previously stated, it is the very NAME shared [Matthew 28:19], the very CHARACTER shared, the very GLORY shared, etc.

Gregorian, you will of course have to specifically define the terms "divine", "elohim" and "theos", for I am sure I would not fully agree to the definitions proposed, especially when speaking of the persons of the SON and HOLY SPIRIT.

Also, "El Shaddai" [that is "the Almighty"] is used of Jesus Christ, even of the OT [Genesis 17:1, 48:3; Exodus 6:3, Ezekiel 1:24, etc.], as so noted in the Greek of the NT [Revelation 1:8,11].

As for the translational [KJV] "LORD" [which is to say "YHVH"], of course Jeremiah 16:21 is speaking of HIM, for the [KJV] is extremely useful in this area, for it also elsewhere relates its definition, as can be seen in [KJV] Exodus 6:3; Psalms 83:18; Isaiah 12:2, 26:4. I have no real issue with this, knowing what the Hebrew states in that YHVH is GOD. The Greek is also very helpful in fully identifying this, and makes for a great transition [for the gentiles use and understanding], for the Greek [especially the Epistles of Paul] quotes many times from the OT, and uses the word "Lord" where in Hebrew it is YHVH. This word, "Lord", then becomes etremely important in the Greek, and in its specific uses when directly associated with JESUS CHRIST. Additionally we can also compare such to the LXX and see the same. As seen perviously:

"[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5

So that we may boldly say, The Lord [is] my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. Hebrews 13:6
...
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8

...compare to:

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. Matthew 15:25" [Link Back]

he-man · Jan 5, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Hello Gregorian,

No worries about the replies... but I hope that it can be picked up again?

The assumption of this statement, "...it seems like the root of nearly all of these assumptions is that Jesus is YHWH based on John 8:58...", is incorrect.

לכן הנני מודיעם בפעם הזאת אודיעם את-ידי ואת-גבורתי וידעו כי-שמי יהוה
H3068 יהוה
yehôvâh From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah

20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is (the) self Existent [Jehovah]

The Gregorian · Jan 6, 2012

3 angels... one reason it's a bit difficult to have a conversation with you is that you're taking a bit of a "wall of text" approach. You're quickly switching between a ton of different topics without actually going very deeply into most... plus with the constant change in text sizes and color... it's difficult to properly address everything.

I believe the key point revolves around the "I am" statement. And yes, generally "ego eimi" is translated as "I am" ... and in every one it means nothing more than that the person is talking about what they are... not a claim to be the one who spoke through the burning bush. The only reason the NWT translates the verse in question differently is because of the different use of tense in greek vs. english. If it were to be translated word for word "Before Abraham -was- born, I am." ... it would grammatically indicate that Jesus currently "is" during a previous time period. However, what he was communicating is that he "has been and continues to be" since before that time.

Do you believe all cases of the phrase "Ego eimi" are proof that the speaker is El Shiddai?

If so, read matthew 3:11, where John the baptist states "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear..."

(although here, the subject and verb are not directly next to each other, the statement "ego eimi" is still here.)

3 Angels Messages · Jan 7, 2012

The Gregorian said:
3 angels... one reason it's a bit difficult to have a conversation with you is that you're taking a bit of a "wall of text" approach. You're quickly switching between a ton of different topics without actually going very deeply into most... plus with the constant change in text sizes and color... it's difficult to properly address everything.

I believe the key point revolves around the "I am" statement. And yes, generally "ego eimi" is translated as "I am" ... and in every one it means nothing more than that the person is talking about what they are... not a claim to be the one who spoke through the burning bush. The only reason the NWT translates the verse in question differently is because of the different use of tense in greek vs. english. If it were to be translated word for word "Before Abraham -was- born, I am." ... it would grammatically indicate that Jesus currently "is" during a previous time period. However, what he was communicating is that he "has been and continues to be" since before that time.

Do you believe all cases of the phrase "Ego eimi" are proof that the speaker is El Shiddai?

If so, read matthew 3:11, where John the baptist states "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear..."

(although here, the subject and verb are not directly next to each other, the statement "ego eimi" is still here.)

Gregorian,

I hope that the information presented is considered, even if it seem a bit much.

If black and white is preferrable I can [hopefully] stick to it for an easier time [I apologize if color is more difficult, and if I should post future in color, it is a habit, please excuse].

As for the multi-answer approach, it was to answer your questions and/or statements. Shall I leave something unanswered? Shall I split the posts per answer? What may I do to make it easier?

The key is not just the "I AM" statement [as there are many others previously given], though that is clear as one very specific example of many.

The "I AM" [ego eimi] statement is more than generally translated as "I AM" [as shown previously], and there is only one specific case in the NWT [John 8:58] that deviates from it.

Since JESUS is YHVH GOD [the SON], as numerous texts show, HE indeed IS, from everlasting to everlasting, and is the claim of HE who descended and which did spake in the midst of the burning bush.

Do I believe all cases of the "I am" in the scriptures are the "I AM"? Obviously not for multitudinous reasons, all Biblical. This is no way detracts from the evidence that JESUS however IS.

For instance, John the Baptist was mentioned, but we can know that he is not the Great "I AM", by scripture:

John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; John 1:26

He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. John 1:27

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:1

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 [and see also passages of the NT which directly quote this.]

John the Baptist was merely the "messenger" to prepare the way for the LORD, and he [John the Baptist] was not the I AM himself.

Please reconsider Malachi 3:1, Isaiah 40:3.

Is it really so much to believe the texts as they plainly read without having to explain them away with so much man-made commentary? Whatsoever is not of Faith is sin.

GOD came down, descended, even condescended, to save you and I. GOD HIMSELF washing the feet of poor rebellious sinful doubting man...

...Such infinite LOVE that it will take all of eternity to comprehend...

The Gregorian · Jan 8, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Gregorian,

I hope that the information presented is considered, even if it seem a bit much.

If black and white is preferrable I can [hopefully] stick to it for an easier time [I apologize if color is more difficult, and if I should post future in color, it is a habit, please excuse].

As for the multi-answer approach, it was to answer your questions and/or statements. Shall I leave something unanswered? Shall I split the posts per answer? What may I do to make it easier?

A bit of color for emphasis is fine, but a lot of posts lately seem to put emphasis on virtually every other word... ends up looking jumbled. To avoid walls of text, you just have to focus on the key points and thoroughly discuss one topic at a time. If we each respond with three tangents on each post, the conversation grows exponentially and it's a headache to try to keep up with. It's not "bad" ... the more concise you can make it, the more clear your points will be... if you've missed something I considered to be a main point, trust me, I'll let you know, and I hope you'll do the same for me if I've missed something important. (And if I do so, please know that it's just that I want to zone in and come to an understanding of one thing at a time).

Is it really so much to believe the texts as they plainly read without having to explain them away with so much man-made commentary? Whatsoever is not of Faith is sin.

GOD came down, descended, even condescended, to save you and I. GOD HIMSELF washing the feet of poor rebellious sinful doubting man...

...Such infinite LOVE that it will take all of eternity to comprehend...

Obviously not, and that's my point. By my reading it seems very clear that the simple truth is that "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Further from a simple reading, Jesus' statement of "I have existed since before abraham." is a very straightforward, clear statement in agreement with all other uses of the phrase "ego eimi." Where else in the hundreds of times this phrase is used, do people interpret it to be a claim to being the one speaking through the burning bush?

3 Angels Messages · Jan 8, 2012

The Gregorian said:
...

Obviously not, and that's my point. By my reading it seems very clear that the simple truth is that "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Further from a simple reading, Jesus' statement of "I have existed since before abraham." is a very straightforward, clear statement in agreement with all other uses of the phrase "ego eimi." Where else in the hundreds of times this phrase is used, do people interpret it to be a claim to being the one speaking through the burning bush?

Again, it was already shown that 'mere existence before' is infinitely insufficient to the text/context and the simple reading, even from the greek literal translation [if one is so inclined], reveals that Jesus is the great I AM.

And this is why I am worried for you, for such a statement is made about this in John 8:24,28.

Indeed, John in context, GOD [the FATHER] so loved the world that HE [the FATHER] gave the SON [who is also GOD, even according to the very same author, John]...

As for the others, there were quoted several from John 8 specifically.

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