Purgatory and Reincarnation

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner hypothesized that reincarnation might be one way that Purgatory operates, especially for those people who (on earth) did not live in a circumstance that allowed them to freely choose God (perhaps because they were not exposed to the gospel, or perhaps because they had to struggle all their lives merely to survive war, hunger, or various types of oppression).

Catholic Brother Steindl-Rast agrees:

From my own personal views, I have studied reincarnation sufficiently that, when somebody asks me, "Do you believe in reincarnation?"--which often happens after a lecture because it is a very popular topic--I simply say, "Yes, I do because I am a Roman Catholic and our name for it is purgatory, but we haven't developed it."

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Sorry though many will say what others want to hear., I can’t, and won’t. teachings of reincarnations and purgatories are not true teachings. Jehovah God understands many either didn’t learn of him and his son. Or didn’t have the means to learn right. But he doesn’t have any place, where many who’s isn’t pure go until the are, so they can enter Heaven. ALL those who live up to their heavenly calling, will be in Heaven.

Those who don’t won’t!, period! And NO ONE dies and come back as someone else. Those who didn’t know of the true God will come back, (resurrected). JUST!… as many who DID hear of Jehovah, and Jesus. but refuse to follow Jesus and or do his Father’s will ,(Matt.12:50-For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother). Because their sins are forgiven once they died,(Rom.-6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord).

Jesus gift to us was the removal of sins. So what kind of God would Jehovah be to still punish, (IF a soul was separate from the body), the dead after his word shows, our sins are wiped away? Those people are in their Graves. There’s NO “soul” that’s in temporary place, until Jehovah decides they’re ready to go one way or the other.

The soul IS the body, NOT a ghost of a dead body. When the body dies, so does the soul, because they are one in a same (Ezek.18:4-the soul that sinneth, it shall die). And (Luke 12:19- And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry). (if souls were ghost there would be no need to eat and drink). Most importantly…(1Cor.15:45 -And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul). peace

Agnikan said:

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner hypothesized that reincarnation might be one way that Purgatory operates, especially for those people who (on earth) did not live in a circumstance that allowed them to freely choose God (perhaps because they were not exposed to the gospel, or perhaps because they had to struggle all their lives merely to survive war, hunger, or various types of oppression).

Catholic Brother Steindl-Rast agrees:

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It sounds reasonable , and a hypothesis that one of the great church fathers , St. Orgien considered.

Agnikan said:

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner hypothesized that reincarnation might be one way that Purgatory operates, especially for those people who (on earth) did not live in a circumstance that allowed them to freely choose God (perhaps because they were not exposed to the gospel, or perhaps because they had to struggle all their lives merely to survive war, hunger, or various types of oppression).

Catholic Brother Steindl-Rast agrees:

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Who knew there were some early Church fathers who believed in reincarnation.And all this time I figured Purgatory was invented to keep the thief on the cross out of heaven,which is how I view the usage of the word "paradise".The Mormons also tried to keep the thief out of heaven by calling "paradise" a world where those who died without hearing the gospels go.

I myself believe in reincarnation.

The Gnostic said:

Who knew there were some early Church fathers who believed in reincarnation.And all this time I figured Purgatory was invented to keep the thief on the cross out of heaven,which is how I view the usage of the word "paradise".The Mormons also tried to keep the thief out of heaven by calling "paradise" a world where those who died without hearing the gospels go.

I myself believe in reincarnation.

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The Catholic Theologian's view is just a twist on the reincarnation theory embraced by some parts of Judaism. There's a belief that all those Jews who do not performed all of the mitzvot will be reincarnated time and again until that task is completed.

I have heard there is a small number of Jews that believe in reincarnation.

The Gnostic said:

I have heard there is a small number of Jews that believe in reincarnation.

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LOL Not that small. The whole Hasidic community believes reincarnation and the Orthodox consider it valid as well.

Agnikan said:

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner hypothesized that reincarnation might be one way that Purgatory operates, especially for those people who (on earth) did not live in a circumstance that allowed them to freely choose God (perhaps because they were not exposed to the gospel, or perhaps because they had to struggle all their lives merely to survive war, hunger, or various types of oppression).

Catholic Brother Steindl-Rast agrees:

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First, before Abraham, Christ was available to all men, because Christ = Truth. ("I am the Truth, the way, and thelife"...)

Truth is our savior because man thinks in order to survive and cope.
He needs to accept the Truth and differentiate between what is actually true and what are lies.


Second, our resurrection is the same as what happens with all other species, like the flowers that reappear on the everlasting vines which are genetically reproducing them again and again.


For men, though, the day is coming when we will be able to remember former lives locked into our presently Unconscious Mind:






"For just as the Father raises the dead (the code for reconstruction resting in the human gene pool) and gives them life (again), even so, (Holy Conscience), the Son, (by means of the next mutation in our evolution: [Gen 9:11]), also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to (the Holy Conscience in their psyche), the Son, (and they, themselves, will know the judgement), so that all will honor the Son (who is Truth) even as they honor the Father (who is almighty Reality).
He who does not honor (the Holy Conscience within his psyche), the Son, does not honor (almighty reality), the Father (sanely imaged in his own mind: [Gen 1:26-7]) who sent Him." - John 5:21-23


Christian Forums

JoJo50 said:

The soul IS the body, NOT a ghost of a dead body. When the body dies, so does the soul, because they are one in a same (Ezek.18:4-the soul that sinneth, it shall die).

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Much of Christian theology defines 'soul' as 'the body' or 'the form of the body', in which case, one's 'soul' is in fact newly born or created at conception/birth. If soul is defined as body, then one could argue that there is no reincarnation.

However, defining the soul as the body raises more questions. If my body is composed of atoms, then those atoms are my 'soul'.

When my body dies, those atoms will become mixed with the atoms in the earth, the sky, the oceans, etc.

If a cow eats a plant that has one of my atoms, and if Billy Bob eats that cow, then my atom will be "re-incarnated" into the body of Billy Bob. What was once 'my' atom, will now become an atom in Billy Bob's body, making it 'his' atom, or part of his 'soul'.

Even defining the soul as the body, can't allow one to escape "reincarnation".

I converted to Roman Catholicism in 1969, at a time of turmoil about doctrines. Shortly thereafter I learned about reincarnation and adopted it as my understanding of Purgatory. I believed this way the whole time I was Roman Catholic until 1992.

There are a very large number of professing Catholics who hold all manner of unorthodox beliefs, thinking that they are actually Catholic doctrines. Reincarnation happens to be one of those beliefs. You will not find the least support of it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Korah said:

I converted to Roman Catholicism in 1969, at a time of turmoil about doctrines. Shortly thereafter I learned about reincarnation and adpted it as my understanding of Purgatory. I bellieved this way the whole time I was Roman Catholic until 1992.

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What happened in 1992?

Agnikan said:

What happened in 1992?

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The pedophilia scandal, covered up all the way to the Pope.
Also I read too many chapters in Judges. Now I'm up to over a dozen reasons RC can't be true.
I switched to Episcopalian from 1992 to 2004. I'm Lutheran now and still believe in Purgatory/reincarnation.

The Gnostic said:

Who knew there were some early Church fathers who believed in reincarnation.And all this time I figured Purgatory was invented to keep the thief on the cross out of heaven,which is how I view the usage of the word "paradise".The Mormons also tried to keep the thief out of heaven by calling "paradise" a world where those who died without hearing the gospels go.

I myself believe in reincarnation.

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Well, "Paradise" has never been defined as "Purgatory." There wasn't even a Purgatory until shortly before the Protestant Reformation began.

The idea that Purgatory may be reincarnation makes sense IF the objective is to save Catholicism from its own devices. The RCC invented Purgatory and declared that you will suffer there, just like Hell, but not forever. Lately, the church has moved away from its historic belief about Purgatory and also about needing to be a Christian in order to be saved because--it is said--no one wants to think of God as a judge in that way anymore. But if anyone, even non-Christians, are to be eligible for Heaven as the RCC is now saying even if they don't know the first thing about Jesus, and if the church doesn't want to be charged with junking Purgatory, then reworking Purgatory into reincarnation would allow the church a way out. Right now, there isn't a thing about it that's authorized and Catholics are not free to define Purgatory any way that seems plausible to them.

As the OP states, it was OK with top RC theologian Karl Rahner. As it was with Cardinal Mercier long before him.
You seem to stand for a brand of Protestantism so distasteful to me that it was why I converted to Roman Catholicism in the first place, an outdated KJV theology.
By the way, have you ever read Mark 9:9-13? That settled it for me.

Korah said:

As the OP states, it was OK with top RC theologian Karl Rahner. As it was with Cardinal Mercier long before him.

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The opinions of these two men may be important. But their church hasn't changed its belief system just because a theologian or three has offered their own views on something or other. IOW, readers and posters here should be reminded that if they sympathize with the idea of Purgatory being redefined as reincarnation, it's far from a done deal and probably will never be, since the RCC has long denounced reincarnation as a false idea.

You seem to stand for a brand of Protestantism so distasteful to me that it was why I converted to Roman Catholicism in the first place, an outdated KJV theology.

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I'll try my best to live with that. It'll be easier because I doubt that you have any idea what my "brand" is.

Albion said:

Lately, the church has moved away from its historic belief about...needing to be a Christian in order to be saved because--it is said--no one wants to think of God as a judge in that way anymore.

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That's not the reason for the movement: the idea that one need not consciously accept Christ in this lifetime in order to be saved, goes back to St. Paul, and even Christ Himself.

Agnikan said:

That's not the reason for the movement: the idea that one need not consciously accept Christ in this lifetime in order to be saved, goes back to St. Paul, and even Christ Himself.

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So the church has decided that it made a 600 year long mistake in doctrine? Well, it doesn't really matter because I was just reporting what has been widely specualted about the reason for the change. Whatever the reason is, the important thing is that Purgatory is being phased out.

Agnikan said:

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner hypothesized that reincarnation might be one way that Purgatory operates, especially for those people who (on earth) did not live in a circumstance that allowed them to freely choose God (perhaps because they were not exposed to the gospel, or perhaps because they had to struggle all their lives merely to survive war, hunger, or various types of oppression).

Catholic Brother Steindl-Rast agrees:

"From my own personal views, I have studied reincarnation sufficiently that, when somebody asks me, "Do you believe in reincarnation?"--which often happens after a lecture because it is a very popular topic--I simply say, "Yes, I do because I am a Roman Catholic and our name for it is purgatory, but we haven't developed it."

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Wait a minute... in all my roman catholic education I have never heard that reincarnation is part of our beliefs

Purgatory is part of the Catholic beliefs, but you have to consider that there are HUGE differences between catholic theology and catholic folklore. Catholic theology invented/discovered purgatory because it seemed theologically impossible that someone good enough to merit heaven but not "perfectly good" would be immediately allowed to see God, or perhaps he could not withstand such meeting, hence the need for a temporary state of purging from all the remnants of evilness (or non-goodness) before going to heaven.

It is catholic folklore of the common people (who as usual needs to fantasize and visualize everything, but cannot do so without remaining tethered to our life-based concepts of time, space and human senses) which started to imagine purgatory as an actual, physical place where to spend years in "mild" suffering.

I suppose you can take the latter view and stretch it to mean that such place is on earth, and such time is measured in additional lives, until someone is finally enlightened. This is actually not really different from Buddhist concept of reincarnation, but as far as I know it is completely rejected by the Catholic Church.

I have actually thought in the distant past something quite similar, except that I was wondering if hell might mean reincarnation. The evangelical references to evil people been condemned to live in the flames of Gehenna forever + the fact that "Gehenna" was actually the name of a very hot region in the middle east, these made me wonder if Jesus could have meant that evil people are condemned to live and suffer on earth again and again. "Forever" meaning "forever as they are evil", but if finally enlightened they would be evil no more and that "forever" would not apply to them anymore. This was just my own mind-rambling as a teenager tho...

It depends on how sadistic is your view of hell and how bucholic your view of purgatory. Some people lives are so unfortunate that hell could be very much like that, but I suppose most people think of hell as continuous physical torture which is unlikely in real life (thought not so infrequently heard of).

Rao said:

Wait a minute... in all my roman catholic education I have never heard that reincarnation is part of our beliefs

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Good point. Of course you are right; it's not part. In fact it's been explicitly rejected. But let someone say that a theologian or two has speculated or theorized something and suddenly we get a raft of posts talking pro or con as though it's a done deal or, if not that, likely. It's not. Good grief.