Where is your evidence creationists?

Astridhere

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I can't remember the source, but I do recall reading that the book of Daniel is believed to have been written after the events that were prophesied in it.


There is much intelligencia about who wrote what and when. I think it all comes to nothing like most intelligencia that goes on about this and that because of this and that when really no one can know. Just because you have not found original manuscripts dated to the time of the writers does not mean anything other than you have not found any.

There was much foreknowledge in the bible, way too much for it to be hit and miss guesses.

101 Scientifc Facts & Foreknowledge - New Life

This foreknowledge supports the assertion that the bible, regardless of what the intelligencia says, must have been guided by the hand of God.

The other support is, although there are many scriptural texts and many faiths, the bible stands alone in that none of the writers took glory for themselves nor did they gain financially by the faith they were preaching. This is almost miraculous in itself as most want to make themselves special and want to live in shameless luxury although non materialism is the basis for most faiths.

What the various faiths do now is no reflection on the validity of the bible or the credibility of a biblical God.

What evidence is there to prove there is no God? None that I can think of.

So on the balance of evidence I'd say the credibility of the bible, as proof of a biblical God, speaks for itself.
 
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ianb321red

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That must be why Christianity is the only religion in the world, hang on it's not is it? approx 5 billion people believe in religions other than Christianity don't they? I wonder why that is when it should be obvious to everyone that Christianity is the one because of it's historical, prophetical and archaeological accuracy, or could that be just be the opinion of it's believers.

It's irrelevant how many other religions exist, and how many adherents to these religions there are.

The only question that needs to addressed is whether the claims any belief system make are objectively true or not. The only thing that can be considered to be true, is what corresponds to reality.

Opposite ideas cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. Therefore, any claim that can be objectively shown to correspond to reality is true, and anything that contradicts reality is false.

This is known as the law of noncontradiction (see The Law of Noncontradiction - Logic)

Christianity and Islam cannot both be true because they hold opposite ideas.

Christianity and Islam have opposite ideas on who Jesus is, on the nature of God, on salvation and so on. These are huge theological differences therefore they cannot both by true.

Christianity corresponds to reality therefore it is true. The only way to overturn this truth claim is to objectively demonstrate that there is an alternative truth claim which corresponds to reality and that this claim is better supported objectively by evidence regardless of religious belief.

When you say "or could that be just be the opinion of it's believers" - your missing the whole point. Real truth exists regardless of who believes in it or not. Real truth corresponds with reality, NOT belief.
All Christians have done is to chosen what they consider to be the correct truth claim, and the one which actually corresponds to reality.....
 
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MoonLancer

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Christianity corresponds to reality therefore it is true.
At the moment your simply aserting this is the case. The actual reality is that there is no evidence for Islam OR Christianity. Both make claims without evidence. Both are unable to backup its claims.
 
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cupid dave

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It's irrelevant how many other religions exist, and how many adherents to these religions there are.

The only question that needs to addressed is whether the claims any belief system make are objectively true or not. The only thing that can be considered to be true, is what corresponds to reality.

Opposite ideas cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. Therefore, any claim that can be objectively shown to correspond to reality is true, and anything that contradicts reality is false.

This is known as the law of noncontradiction (see The Law of Noncontradiction - Logic)

Christianity and Islam cannot both be true because they hold opposite ideas.

Christianity and Islam have opposite ideas on who Jesus is, on the nature of God, on salvation and so on. These are huge theological differences therefore they cannot both by true.

Christianity corresponds to reality therefore it is true. The only way to overturn this truth claim is to objectively demonstrate that there is an alternative truth claim which corresponds to reality and that this claim is better supported objectively by evidence regardless of religious belief.

When you say "or could that be just be the opinion of it's believers" - your missing the whole point. Real truth exists regardless of who believes in it or not. Real truth corresponds with reality, NOT belief.
All Christians have done is to chosen what they consider to be the correct truth claim, and the one which actually corresponds to reality.....
True as what yoi is may be, both Christians and muslims are wrong.

What is True is the argument Jesus emphasized when he said "I am the truth"....


His claim that he personified Truth, itself, corresponds to what you say above.
Ifthe son of God is Truth, then his Father is the ever unfolding Realit that we are trapped within and nurtured by.

People who believe in Truth as the salvation for their problems and the future of mankind are right.
 
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cupid dave

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At the moment your simply aserting this is the case. The actual reality is that there is no evidence for Islam OR Christianity. Both make claims without evidence. Both are unable to backup its claims.


Whereas you are right about the christians and the muslims, the Bible agrees with the statement that Truth is the God we need seek in order that our relationship with Reality is sane.

Those people who understandthis do not need the Bible to confirm it, while those people who read the bible ought become convinced that this is true.
 
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MoonLancer

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Whereas you are right about the christians and the muslims, the Bible agrees with the statement that Truth is the God we need seek in order that our relationship with Reality is sane.

Those people who understandthis do not need the Bible to confirm it, while those people who read the bible ought become convinced that this is true.
I have quite a sane relationship with reality already. The bible seems to be doing a poor job if i understand what your trying to say.
 
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ianb321red

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At the moment your simply aserting this is the case. The actual reality is that there is no evidence for Islam OR Christianity. Both make claims without evidence. Both are unable to backup its claims.

Ok. Firstly, make sure you read this post properly before making another comment on this particular subject.

To begin with, do you mean:
(1) “there is no evidence” for you personally?
Or you do you mean
(2) “there is no evidence” at all for anyone?

If you mean:
(1) Then are you saying that you are genuinely looking for evidence? Or have you decided there is no evidence and therefore will not look for, or further consider anything that other people deem to be “evidence”. I think what you really mean is that you have rejected what other people who do actually believe in Christianity consider to be “the evidence”
(2) If you mean no evidence for anyone at all, then that clearly is fallacious. I for one think there is evidence for Christianity, and there are clearly millions of people who also believe in Christianity. For a single individual to say that there is “no evidence” for themselves AND everyone else as well is clearly absurb.

What you can say is that you don’t accept the evidence, you don’t want to believe the evidence or that you are not searching for the evidence – and I expect the later to be more accurate. The question then follows from this position is to turn to you and ask either (i) why you don’t accept the evidence, and /or (ii) where have you been looking for the evidence, or (iii) have you even looked for the evidence?

If you are simply dismissing Christianity superficially then the "no evidence" argument is a lazy argument. In fact it's not even an argument.

So, the position that there is “no evidence” at all is clearly false.
If I said there is “no evidence” for 5 kilometre high building in the middle of London, then that is clearly false and easily demonstrated to be false. You will also not find one single person on this planet that believes that.
You will find more than one single person who believes in Christianity.

Because the claim of "no evidence" is an absolute statement, then it needs to correspond to reality for this statement to hold as absolutely true.
All absolute statements logically must correspond to reality.
Otherwise, the only logical alternative is for it to be a relative statement and therefore neither true nor false.

It therefore follows for the statement "no evidence for Christianity" to correspond to reality, you would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that:

-all scientific, historical, anthropological, archaeological evidence deemed to correspond to, or in support of a Christian God, The Bible and the accounts of Jesus is false
-all non Christian textual evidence (i.e. Jewish Talmud, Tacitus, Joesephus) that externally validates The Bible is false.
-all personal experiences of (the Christian) God (including dreams, visions and so) are false
-Christianity, the claims of Jesus Christ and The Bible does not pass the normal rules for establishing historical authenticity and is therefore a false or corrupted text
-any convert from atheism or another belief system to Christianity was false and/or never happened

If you can show that these 4 things all correspond to reality, then the statement "no evidence" (for Christianity) would a true and absolute statement.
If you are honest, the best that you could truthfully do is show that these things are strongly debated!

In the meantime, and until this happens the reality is (whether you agree with it or not) that tens-of-millions of people continue to believe in what they consider to be very real evidence (for Christianity), and so the statement "no evidence for Christianity" does not correspond to reality and is simply no more than an individual subjective perspective on the world in which we live.

Which is fine - and is valid to a point, but holds no real weight in an argument or in any attempt to discredit Christianity which is trying to disprove reality on an absolute and truthful basis for all.

In simple terms, the "no evidence" line of argument is a complete myth.
At best it is a relative and biased term. I can accept "there is no evidence for me personally" - but then it's an argument of choice or preference, NOT evidence!

At worst (and I'm not necessarily suggesting this is what you think) it calls in to question the essential and basic cognitive human abilities of millions of "Christians".

So the real problem for the non-theist is that they end up making absolute claims (such as claims regarding Christianity) when they should only be making relative claims, and in doing this from a minority position (which non-theism is) in attempt to write off the beliefs held by the majority (non-atheist) position with little or no justification or genuine understanding of this position.

So read this through, and then consider what you mean by "no evidence" for Christianity. I would challenge you or anyone to objectively demonstrate that there is "no evidence" for the Christian faith.

In a previous post a few days ago, I set out a number of examples of secular evidence that externally validates the gospel accounts of Jesus. If need be I can outline several more examples of evidence to support a number of Old and New Testament events. I noted that nobody commented on my post containing a direct quote from Tacitus Annals 15:44.....

Therefore, I have already and can continue to provide objective evidence to support my position.

If you do feel you have a strong argument to demonstrate there is "no evidence" for Christianity, then set it out here and back up it with something other than your opinion.
 
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revo74

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It's irrelevant how many other religions exist, and how many adherents to these religions there are.

This is not true. The fact that there have been thousands of religions throughout history is proof that man is capable and has been very successful at creating religions that draw scores of devout followers to them. This suggests that we should be very skeptical when determining if one particular religions is actually valid.

The only question that needs to addressed is whether the claims any belief system make are objectively true or not. The only thing that can be considered to be true, is what corresponds to reality.

Christianity is littered with so many problems that it is more than reasonable to conclude that it is no different than any other false religion. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the evidence that supports the validity of Christianity is poor.
 
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MoonLancer

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To begin with, do you mean:
(1) “there is no evidence” for you personally?
Or you do you mean
(2) “there is no evidence” at all for anyone?
Evidence has nothing to do with anything personal or anecdotal. This portion of your post really makes me wonder if you know what "evidence" is. Something that is simply convincing is not "evidence"

If you mean:
(1) Then are you saying that you are genuinely looking for evidence? Or have you decided there is no evidence and therefore will not look for, or further consider anything that other people deem to be “evidence”. I think what you really mean is that you have rejected what other people who do actually believe in Christianity consider to be “the evidence”
Your confusing evidence with something that might seem convincing.
(2) If you mean no evidence for anyone at all, then that clearly is fallacious. I for one think there is evidence for Christianity, and there are clearly millions of people who also believe in Christianity. For a single individual to say that there is “no evidence” for themselves AND everyone else as well is clearly absurd.
It is actually this that is fallacious as it seems to indicate that because people believe in Christianity that evidence for it must exist. people beleive in all kind sof things without evidence. However in todays world some are embarrassed to do so. they want their cake and want to eat it too. The fact is that their is no evidence for god or truth of Christianity. There are other things that may convince people of the case but its not based on logic or evidence or reality. Its based on personal belief, feelings and any number of things that is susceptible to being mislead from reality.
What you can say is that you don’t accept the evidence, you don’t want to believe the evidence or that you are not searching for the evidence – and I expect the later to be more accurate. The question then follows from this position is to turn to you and ask either (i) why you don’t accept the evidence, and /or (ii) where have you been looking for the evidence, or (iii) have you even looked for the evidence?
Actually i can say that their is no evidence. If you would like to provide some and show that i am wrong go ahead.
If you are simply dismissing Christianity superficially then the "no evidence" argument is a lazy argument. In fact it's not even an argument.
its a perfectly valid argument until some are provided.
So, the position that there is “no evidence” at all is clearly false.
If I said there is “no evidence” for 5 kilometre high building in the middle of London, then that is clearly false and easily demonstrated to be false. You will also not find one single person on this planet that believes that.
You will find more than one single person who believes in Christianity.
of course. show me this 5 kilometre building (aka God). show me on a map after all your using a physical object for comparison so it really must be that easy to dismiss my argument right? or are you just using a bad comparison that really does not fit at all.

Because the claim of "no evidence" is an absolute statement, then it needs to correspond to reality for this statement to hold as absolutely true.
All absolute statements logically must correspond to reality.
Otherwise, the only logical alternative is for it to be a relative statement and therefore neither true nor false.

It therefore follows for the statement "no evidence for Christianity" to correspond to reality, you would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that:

-all scientific, historical, anthropological, archaeological evidence deemed to correspond to, or in support of a Christian God, The Bible and the accounts of Jesus is false
-all non Christian textual evidence (i.e. Jewish Talmud, Tacitus, Joesephus) that externally validates The Bible is false.
-all personal experiences of (the Christian) God (including dreams, visions and so) are false
-Christianity, the claims of Jesus Christ and The Bible does not pass the normal rules for establishing historical authenticity and is therefore a false or corrupted text
-any convert from atheism or another belief system to Christianity was false and/or never happened
Lies are much more comforting then the truth. There are many reasons why someone would convert without Christianity actually being true. Let me ask you this. What piece of evidence do you think is the strongest for Christianity, and how is this any different from any other religion that exists or has existed?

If you can show that these 4 things all correspond to reality, then the statement "no evidence" (for Christianity) would a true and absolute statement.
If you are honest, the best that you could truthfully do is show that these things are strongly debated!
some of these don't even follow their logical conclusion (see above)

In the meantime, and until this happens the reality is (whether you agree with it or not) that tens-of-millions of people continue to believe in what they consider to be very real evidence (for Christianity), and so the statement "no evidence for Christianity" does not correspond to reality and is simply no more than an individual subjective perspective on the world in which we live.
argument from population sorry that is a fallacy. Show me evidence rather then telling be how many people believe. It doesn't make it true.
Which is fine - and is valid to a point, but holds no real weight in an argument or in any attempt to discredit Christianity which is trying to disprove reality on an absolute and truthful basis for all.

In simple terms, the "no evidence" line of argument is a complete myth.
At best it is a relative and biased term. I can accept "there is no evidence for me personally" - but then it's an argument of choice or preference, NOT evidence!
a myth? is that why you have written this absurdly long post yet riddled it with fallacies not actually posted anything that could be considered evidence in the very real or empirical?
At worst (and I'm not necessarily suggesting this is what you think) it calls in to question the essential and basic cognitive human abilities of millions of "Christians".

So the real problem for the non-theist is that they end up making absolute claims (such as claims regarding Christianity) when they should only be making relative claims, and in doing this from a minority position (which non-theism is) in attempt to write off the beliefs held by the majority (non-atheist) position with little or no justification or genuine understanding of this position.
again no evidence? you really should just post the evidence rather then all this stuff

So read this through, and then consider what you mean by "no evidence" for Christianity. I would challenge you or anyone to objectively demonstrate that there is "no evidence" for the Christian faith.

In a previous post a few days ago, I set out a number of examples of secular evidence that externally validates the gospel accounts of Jesus. If need be I can outline several more examples of evidence to support a number of Old and New Testament events. I noted that nobody commented on my post containing a direct quote from Tacitus Annals 15:44.....
Tacitus Annals is a 15th century Forgery

Therefore, I have already and can continue to provide objective evidence to support my position.

If you do feel you have a strong argument to demonstrate there is "no evidence" for Christianity, then set it out here and back up it with something other than your opinion.
You support your position in a very convincing way but not in an evidenced sort of way. If you had evidence you would have posted it. You did not.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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No one will ever be "argued" into the Christian faith--faith leading to salvation is an act of God. The purpose of the historical, prophetical and archeological supports to the truth of the Bible are merely to come against the misrepresentations posed by the enemy of the souls of humankind. A barrier of lies turns many away before they are even able to study the claims of Christ. There is, in this world, the Kingdom of Light headed by our King Messiah and there is the Kingdom of Darkness. Sadly, a majority of humans have been so blinded by Satan (or their own sin) that they prefer the darkness "because their deeds are evil."
So if someone's not a Christian, it's God's fault? Few, that's a load off my mind! :thumbsup:
 
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cupid dave

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I have quite a sane relationship with reality already. The bible seems to be doing a poor job if i understand what your trying to say.

Its not the Bible.

The churches have preachedthat Christ is Love, instead of Truth.

If they preached that Christ is Truth, as he claimed, then they would seethat Science is revealing Truth to us through the Scientific Method.
 
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cupid dave

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So if someone's not a Christian, it's God's fault? Few, that's a load off my mind! :thumbsup:


That is the point about salvation.
He made us, but he may not be happy about it.

God demands we adapt to his ways or else:




6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
 
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Wiccan_Child

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That is the point about salvation.
He made us, but he may not be happy about it.

God demands we adapt to his ways or else:




6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
What a capricious and tyrannical being. Thank God I'm an atheist :thumbsup:
 
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ianb321red

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Tacitus Annals is a 15th century Forgery

The ironic thing here is that you made an assertion and then not backed it up.
In fact you've made several in your post an backed none of them up. And this seems to be your beef with Christians....

If the issue here is of evidence, then why have you claimed that Annals is forged and then not explained how you've understood this to be the case? Why have you not supported this statement with a least one piece of evidence that we can both review?

From my point of view I don't need to argue the case for Tacitus, Flavius, Galen or any of the extra-biblical evidence I've previously mentioned.

My primary evidence is The Bible. I've explained previously why.
My secondary evidence is extra-biblical material that externally supports The Bible. This isn't actually needed to substantiate the accuracy of The Bible - it's a bonus.

I am not about to provide evidence to support evidence which is supporting my primary evidence. As far as I am concerned the reference from Tacitus constitutes prima facie evidence for the historicity of Jesus.
 
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ianb321red

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What piece of evidence do you think is the strongest for Christianity, and how is this any different from any other religion that exists or has existed?

I'll answer the rest of your points tomorrow.

To answer this one:
(i) The Bible.
(ii) It's different because when you assess this text objectively using the historical method to determine it's accuracy and authenticity, then it can be demonstrated to be a true and accurate text. Sir Frederic Kenyon who wrote the book "Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts " (see electronic version here Master frameset) was so convinced of the historical reality of the events described in the New Testament that he said"The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.""

So my challenge remains:

(i) Demonstrate using evidence (rather than opinion), that The Bible is not historically accurate and therefore does not reflect a truthful and accurate historical record.
(ii) Demonstrate that any alternative belief system holds a more truthful and historical accurate of events described in an alternative text, which can be tested and attested objectively and can be shown to better corroborate with history than the Christian record in The Bible does.

My evidence is The Bible.
You can carry on claiming that I have supplied "no evidence" if you like - but there's nothing of any substance in this claim.
What you actually need to start doing is supplying evidence to support your counter argument (if you have one) which can seriously challenge the demonstrated historical accuracy of the Bible.
 
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ianb321red

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The bible makes claims. Claims are not evidence, and your bonus material is a forgery. Take a read.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8tcbr10.txt

Comprehensive rebuttal by:
Clarence W. MENDELL, Tacitus: The Man and his Work, Yale University Press/Oxford University Press (1957)

According to Mendell, neither John Wilson Ross (or any other writers) have won general acceptance of their estimates of Tacitus, the extreme positions have been abandoned, and the general integrity of Tacitus vindicated.

It would seem that the arguments for forgery have failed to find acceptance.
 
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My evidence is The Bible.
That's the holy book of the religion you were given, had you been born to different parents in a different country your holy book might have been the Koran, you would then have claimed that the Koran was the only evidence you needed.

Suppose you were adopted as a baby you could have been raised to believe any religion, you could have been a Mormon or a JW.
 
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