For those here who are PRO Talmud

simchat_torah

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That being said, do I really need to be more informed? Without casting stones at the Talmud and condemning it like some people do (and I am not necessarily referring to anyone at this forum), I can honestly say no based on others advice from on this thread and via PM's.
I agree with these people ;)
I would only make an additional comment. Do be aware that many of the practices you may participate in as a Messianic are derived from the Talmud. Do you ever wear a Kippah in services? Do you light the Sabbath candles?

These practices are not Torah based, but rather find their origins in the Talmud.
 
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mfaust

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I agree with these people ;)
I would only make an additional comment. Do be aware that many of the practices you may participate in as a Messianic are derived from the Talmud. Do you ever wear a Kippah in services? Do you light the Sabbath candles?

These practices are not Torah based, but rather find their origins in the Talmud.

To be perfectly honest, I am so new to my Messianic belief, I do nothing but keep Sabbath by doing little to no "work" and studying scripture, I "attempt" to keep kosher albeit occasionally failing ;). I haven't yet observed any feasts, but only because I am just that new, that there hasn't been one to observe (and I am not counting Chanukah). There are no services near me to attend, so I am unfortunately a one-man show. And last but not least, I strive to follow the 10 Commandments, but that is nothing new.

So, nope... not doing anything based on Talmud. No candle lighting, no anything of the sort. I don't even own a menorah.

If anything, I feel that I am likely not doing enough. :o

I would say based on yours and others suggestion, I am doing pretty good! :D
 
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ContraMundum

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If anything, I feel that I am likely not doing enough. :o

The old question- how much is enough?

I would say based on yours and others suggestion, I am doing pretty good! :D

I agree. Those moral commandments are pretty hard to master!
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Ultimately, what can make a sigificant world of difference is simply knowing the role Talmud can be within the life of a believer. For it can either be a tool or a trouble depending on how one approaches it and how well they really understand the Torah. Christ referenced it on a couple of occassions (alongside other rabbinical concepts) frequently when stating certain things, although much of what's within one version of the Talmud speaks against Him and deems Him to be a magician not to be followed. If one didn't see fully what the Talmud was, then they would not be able to address it fully.

In many ways, it's similar to when Americans reference the U.S Constitution (IMHO). For that is a document made by man with many powerful truths that can greatly impact the lives of other for good---but whenever people speak from that as if all aspects of it are Divine/inspired, there can be issue since there were many aspects of it that were negative (like slaves being counted as 3/5ths of a man and allowances within it for other practices that had to be amended later when it seemed apparent that not all aspects of it were made correctly). When some people become so dogmatic about patriotism as glorifying God that they quote the Constitution more than they do scripture, then it can become an issue.

With the Talmud comes issues connected to it---much of it centering around the subject of what's often debated in the Church with concepts such as Sola Scriptura vs Tradition and which one takes predecence.....or wrestling with whether or not the Lord can give Divine Inspiration outside of the Word. If one already has the perspective that tradition can be a source on par with the scriptures, then one will really have no issue with discussions on Talmud. Where I stand is within the realm known as Prima Scriptura, which is the thought that the scriptures take precedence over what has been used traditionally...even though other sources can have divine inspiration provided that they always point back to conforming to the character of Christ as seen in the Gospels. More on this was discussed elsewhere, as seen here....and on Talmud itself, More was discussed here , here , here and here
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I would just disagree with the concept that the Talmud is a commentary on the Torah. It wasn't written as a commentary. Commentaries from those days were called psharim (singlar: pesher), and they gave elucidation on the meaning of texts, especially interpreted in light of the situation of the readers at the time. The midrash is much closer to the idea of pesher, especially texts such as Midrash Rabba and Midrash Tanchuma, which follow the order of the sidras as found in the Torah.

The Talmud is not a commentary on the Torah, though it certainly includes quotes from the Torah and from the rest of the Tanach. It is written as an elucidation not on the biblical text (which it uses as support for its arguments) but on Jewish life. The Talmud is a commentary on Judaism and how to understand the world through Judaism. It contains a lot of information that is relevant only within a given culture or worldview, so it disagrees at times with how we see the world through modern eyes - which is completely acceptable and to be expected of any book written in previous generations (even the Bible, in fact).

The kernel of the Talmud is the Mishnah, the oral law handed down by the Pharisees (Prushim) and those who followed them. The Mishnah set out to include the decisions of the major rabbis regarding six areas of Jewish law and custom. Each of these general topics is called a seder "order" (plural: sdarim), and it touches on many topics that are somehow related to the general order.

There are two talmuds (talmudim) - one from the Diaspora, called the "Babylonian Talmud"; and one from the Holy Land, called the "Palestinian (or, Jerusalem) Talmud". The most important of the two according to tradition is the Babylonian. The Talmud (Gmara) is a commentary on the Mishnah. Not all sections of the Mishnah contain a corresponding section of Gmara (such as Pirkei Avot, mentioned above), but all Gmara is written as a commentary on the Mishnah, even if it leads into discussions that are either only tangentially related to the Mishnah text or even not related at all.

So, what is the value of the Talmud to a Messianic Jew? For that question, you'd have to ask them. How can you personally benefit from reading the Talmud? First, take it with a grain of salt. There are a myriad of opinions expressed in the Talmud, and not all of them are "gospel truth", shall we say. Second, read it as a commentary of Judaism from the past. Its value for showing us how Judaism was in the early- and mid-First Millennium is incomprehensible. So, take it as a description of the past and learn from it. Read its social comments from the perspective of a historian, not a social critic. There are things written there that must be understood from within the culture, and don't forget that translation also alters some things - and that the Talmud is written in such a way as to make sense to the initiated while confounding those who are not yeshiva students.

Good luck in your reading, and don't forget to turn to people who know the Talmud when you have questions. Do not seek out anti-Talmud websites, because they often twist and distort what is written and make Jews into pedophiles, rapists, murderers and every other foul thing imaginable.

Regards,
YM



Good post. If for no other reason, Talmudic studies can be beneficial simply for the historical perspective they can offer on knowing what some people were thinking during the times.
 
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mfaust

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Now, the Menorah isn't a Talmud-only invention, though. ;)


Oh I know that. :)

I was including that among things that I am lacking, but "meant" to imply I wanted one, but I am so new to this I do not have one yet.
I simply formatted my post incorrectly so it gave the impression I was relating it to Talmud.

As a famous politician is known to say... "Oops."
:wave:
 
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ChavaK

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This might make things easier for those who study the Talmud:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/n...almud-after-1500-years.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

The Talmud is a formidable body of work: 63 volumes of rabbinical discourse and disputation that form Judaism’s central scripture after the Torah. It has been around for 1,500 years and is studied every day by tens of thousands of Jews. But trying to navigate through its coiling labyrinth can be enormously difficult because the one thing this monumental work lacks is a widely accepted and accessible index.
 
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