Where is your evidence creationists?

mathetes123

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When you say "All you have is a book comprised of a collection of ancient writings" isn't that the norm for how we come to understand anything about the ancient world?

There's more evidence to support the accuracy and authenticity of The Bible than for any other text from the ancient world.

The Bible is supported by more manuscript evidence than any other book from the ancient world. There are in excess of 24,000 extant Greek manuscripts, codex’s and fragments of the Old and New Testament. These have been attested more thoroughly than any other work from the ancient world, and the New Testament alone has approx.. 5300 manuscripts

For example:
-Plato/ written 427-347BC/ earliest fragment AD 900 / 7 Manuscripts
-Tacitus 'Annals'/ written AD100/ earliest fragment AD1100/ 20 Manuscripts
-New Testament / written AD40-100/ earliest fragment AD125/ 5,300 Manuscripts

The Bible is also supported by well over 40 secular sources i.e. non-Christian of evidence for events described in The New Testament surrounding the life and works of Jesus in particular.

I would challenge anybody to provide the equivalent amount of primary and independent objective evidence equivalent in both quality and quantity to that which is required to support arguments from the Bible, to demonstrate that Julius Caesar fought in the Roman Civil war.

My point here is that we have an historically accurate text with The Bible. It can be measured and checked objectively (unlike most other "religious texts") and stands up the tests from historians, archaeologists, anthropologists and so.

To demonstrate otherwise you would have to re-write history, and then back an alternative history up with the amount of evidence that there is for The Bible.



Isn't that stating the obvious though? Since when as The Bible every professed to be a science book? Watch the following 4 minute clip:

Are there scientific errors in the Bible? - YouTube



Well it has something to do with the existence of God!!



I am completely confident that the Bible is true. We know The Bible is true because it stands up to the scrutiny of the historical method (see Historical method..)

Using this approach when you make a comparison between the Christian view of Jesus and other religions (the Islamic view, for example), it is quite clear that the Christian view can only be the correct view:

1.Date: Christianity 65-90 AD / Islam 610-632 AD
2.Where: Christianity - Judea/Galilee / Islam - Medina/Mecca
3.Authorship: Christianity – eyewitnesses and close associates (disciples) who personally knew Jesus / Islam – Muhammad who lived approximately 600 later
4.Analysis: Christianity – apocalyptic traditions, oral narratives, didactic sayings / Islam – dictated in an alleged dream directly to Muhammad
5.Integrity: Christianity – manuscripts, scrolls and codices / Islam – originally spoken, then written versions on tablets and bones. Full written version not completed until 700 AD
6.Credibility: Christianity – gospels accounts independently corroborated by Jewish traditions as well as secular historical accounts / Islam – no known independent or secular affirmation know outside of Qu’ran

In order to believe that Islam has the correct view of Jesus, you have to believe that an account written by someone 600 years later than when Jesus lived, written closed to 1000 km from where Jesus lived by someone who never met Jesus, with no eyewitness accounts and an account which contradicts known secular historical evidence which can independently verify the Christian account is the correct account.

To do this you have to completely disregard the historical method for establishing authenticity. And then you have to disregard the whole of ancient history!!

There is no known non-Islamic/ secular evidence which can corroborate the Qu'ranic version of Jesus Christ.
The best evidence that Muslims claim is The Gospel of Barnabas, which only has 2 manuscript copies and is generally considered by practically all Bible scholars to be a fraud.

The Jewish traditions confirm the Christian account of Jesus Christ on a factual level. They simply deny it's meaning or relevance, and that's why they put him to death for blasphemy...

Until any credible evidence can be provided and demonstrated to counter The Biblical evidence, then The Bible has to be considered the truthful account historically.

So the Christian position is simply based on a correct understanding of history - that's it!!

Don't forget, contrary to claims by skeptics that using the Bible to defend the Bible is circular reasoning, the Bible is self validating in terms of fulfilled prophecies. Consider that the Bible predicted the rise and fall of four world empires, including the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire. Don't forget also the over 300 Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus. There are many others. In all of this, the prophecies are 100% accurate. Who other than God, who knows the beginning from the end, could have made such prophecies.
 
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My point here is that we have an historically accurate text with The Bible. It can be measured and checked objectively (unlike most other "religious texts") and stands up the tests from historians, archaeologists, anthropologists and so.
Is there any chance that you can show us where we might find just one piece of evidence that shows the Bible is accurate.

Please don't post religious sites as evidence because they are most likely the ones who misled you in the first place..
 
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mathetes123

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Is there any chance that you can show us where we might find just one piece of evidence that shows the Bible is accurate.

Look at Bible prophecy. The Bible predicted the rise and fall of four world empires, including the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire.

Why is it that skeptics assume the evidence in the Bible is not there rather than reading it for themselves.
 
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CabVet

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Look at Bible prophecy. The Bible predicted the rise and fall of four world empires, including the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire.

Why is it that skeptics assume the evidence in the Bible is not there rather than reading it for themselves.

The Quran must be correct too then. Check Quran fulfilled prophecies.
 
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revo74

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Revo,

So logic tells you that an intelligent creator was needed.

You believe in a creator. What is your obstacle to believing in the God of the Bible?

The same obstacles that prevent you from believing in Horus, Zeus, Shiva, Thor, etc., and more.
 
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Look at Bible prophecy. The Bible predicted the rise and fall of four world empires, including the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire.

Why is it that skeptics assume the evidence in the Bible is not there rather than reading it for themselves.
Forget the Bible, you said that tests from historians, archaeologists, anthropologists were done, show us ONE of those.
 
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mathetes123

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Forget the Bible, you said that tests from historians, archaeologists, anthropologists were done, show us ONE of those.

Ianb said that. He was correct. The Bible is accurate in terms of the historical, archeological and anthropological records and in terms of fulfilled prophecy.
 
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mathetes123

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The same obstacles that prevent you from believing in Horus, Zeus, Shiva, Thor, etc., and more.

If you are suggesting there is not more evidence for the God of the Bible than for these mythological figures then I can only conclude one of the following:

1) You have never read the Bible
2) You are being disingenuous
 
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selfinflikted

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If you are suggesting there is not more evidence for the God of the Bible than for these mythological figures then I can only conclude one of the following:

1) You have never read the Bible
2) You are being disingenuous

I have read the Bible, but I have a whole lot of trouble believing the supernatural claims contained therein. Can you give me one good reason why I should?
 
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The Bible is accurate in terms of the historical, archeological and anthropological records and in terms of fulfilled prophecy.
Just saying it does not make it true no matter how many times you say it.

All the worlds religions have holy books that tell their believers they are true, yours just happened to be the Bible.
 
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revo74

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If you are suggesting there is not more evidence for the God of the Bible than for these mythological figures then I can only conclude one of the following:

1) You have never read the Bible
2) You are being disingenuous

There was man in India named Sathya Sai Baba who died this past April who was said to be divine. He has many millions of followers — far more than Jesus had when he was alive. He has been known to perform many of the same miracles that Jesus did, including raising the dead. Hundreds of westerners had traveled to India, spent time with him, and came away believing that he was indeed authentic.

This guy lived in the 20th and 21st century, not 2,000 years ago. The amount of evidence for Sathya Sai Baba exceeds Jesus many, many times over, yet this many as Sam Harris says doesn't even warrant an hour on the Discovery channel.

Now you can do some research on him and easily find information that criticizes him, but I can do the same for Jesus and other historical characters and events in the Bible.
 
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There was man in India named Sathya Sai Baba who died this past April who was said to be divine. He has many millions of followers — far more than Jesus had when he was alive. He has been known to perform many of the same miracles that Jesus did, including raising the dead. Hundreds of westerners had traveled to India, spent time with him, and came away believing that he was indeed authentic.

This guy lived in the 20th and 21st century, not 2,000 years ago. The amount of evidence for Sathya Sai Baba exceeds Jesus many, many times over, yet this many as Sam Harris says doesn't even warrant an hour on the Discovery channel.

Now you can do some research on him and easily find information that criticizes him, but I can do the same for Jesus and other historical characters and events in the Bible.


Yes, it seems clear rhat the message of what Jesus did in 32AD was not that he did miraculous things, but that he repeated exactly what the Elijah had done 800 years before.

The point being, that Christ was The Elijah, returned in 32AD:




They both did the same miracles, which was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back:


Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead

Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain

Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses

Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel

Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities

Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb

Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days

Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water

Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended

Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities

Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead

Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other

Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.

Both had miraculous births

Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd

Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.

Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter
 
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Greg1234

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Just saying it does not make it true no matter how many times you say it.

All the worlds religions have holy books that tell their believers they are true, yours just happened to be the Bible.

They all say the same thing in their own way and the corresponding elements can be mapped.
 
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revo74

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Yes, it seems clear rhat the message of what Jesus did in 32AD was not that he did miraculous things, but that he repeated exactly what the Elijah had done 800 years before.

The point being, that Christ was The Elijah, returned in 32AD:




They both did the same miracles, which was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back:


Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead

Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain

Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses

Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel

Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities

Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb

Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days

Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water

Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended

Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities

Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead

Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other

Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.

Both had miraculous births

Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd

Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.

Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter

I still can't post links. Google: "Why biblical "prophecy" works against the bible's credibility"
 
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ianb321red

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Is there any chance that you can show us where we might find just one piece of evidence that shows the Bible is accurate.

Michael Martin & G.A Wells both concede that the apostle Paul was a legitimate eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus (as recorded in The New Testament..). To quote Martin - he admits "However we only have one contemporary eyewitness account of a postresurrection appearance of Jesus, namely Paul's"

These are both atheist philosophers who accept that the evidence of Paul as an eyewitness to risen Christ is accurate.

I would suggest that the burden of proof is actually on you to show that The Bible isn't accurate.

This is not asking you to prove a negative or anything daft like that (which is accusation a lot of Theists/ Bible believers receive). It is asking you to prove that the current version of history as recorded (which exists objectively speaking) is false, and then to present the correct alternative version and support this version with objective evidence.

If you want objective secular (pagan) evidence that supports The Bible and it's historical accuracy, do some research on the works of:

Fronto
Mara Bar-Serapion
Josephus
Tacitus
Suetonis
Celsus
Galen
Philostratus
Marcus Aurelius
Pliny the younger
Lucian of Samosata
The Jewish Talmud

To quote from Tacitus Annals 15:44 (Tacitus: Annals: Book 15 [40]) (NOTE: Tacitus was a Roman historian who wrote this particular text in AD116 and was a noted Christian hater..)

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. "
 
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To quote Martin - he admits "However we only have one contemporary eyewitness account of a postresurrection appearance of Jesus, namely Paul's"
He is not admitting anything he is just stating that all we have is one eyewitness which is NO evidence at all.
These are both atheist philosophers who accept that the evidence of Paul as an eyewitness to risen Christ is accurate.
Wrong...they accept nothing, there is no evidence that Jesus EVER existed and even if he did what evidence is there to say he was anything more than a radical Jew?
I would suggest that the burden of proof is actually on you to show that The Bible isn't accurate.
You said there was plenty of evidence now you say it's up to others to prove it isn't accurate, what game are you playing? are you telling lies about the evidence? of course you are and you know it.
Why don't you just believe and forget about the non-existing evidence?
 
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CabVet

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I would suggest that the burden of proof is actually on you to show that The Bible isn't accurate.

You are the one that said there was "plenty of evidence", so when someone asks for the evidence your answer is to tell them they have to prove you wrong?
 
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