As Ishmael was Isaac's brother, Esau (Edom) was Jacob's brother

SanFrank · Dec 1, 2011

Tanakh

Amos 1.11 The Lord says, "The people of Edom have sinned again and again, and for this I will certainly punish them. They hunted down their relatives, http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/amos/1.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-athe Israelites, and showed them no mercy. Their anger had no limits, and they never let it die. http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/amos/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-612 So I will send fire upon the city of Teman and burn down the fortresses of Bozrah."

Will history repeat itself?

Isaiah 34.5 "The Lord has prepared his sword in heaven, and now it will strike Edom, those people whom he has condemned to destruction. http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/34.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-26 His sword will be covered with their blood and fat, like the blood and fat of lambs and goats that are sacrificed. The Lord will offer this sacrifice in the city of Bozrah; he will make this a great slaughter in the land of Edom."

The Day of the Lord

Isaiah 63.1 "Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/63.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-ain power and strength?" http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/63.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. 2 "Why is his clothing so red, like that of someone who tramples grapes to make wine?" 3 The Lord answers, "I have trampled the nations like grapes, and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/63.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-24 I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies. 5 I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/63.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-36 In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them. I poured out their lifeblood on the ground."

SanFrank · Dec 3, 2011

Ishmael's offspring include Kedar which I mentioned in other threads. Dumah was the sixth son born to ishmael. In book of isaiah, Dumah's clan is associated with the areas of mount Seir. What does the G*d of Abraham think of this clan? Geographically, Mt Seir is near Bozrah, region of Edom.

Is Jesus the only way for their offspring?

Tanakh, Ezekiel 35. 2 "Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir; prophesy against it 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, Mount Seir, and I will stretch out my hand against you and make you a desolate waste.4 I will turn your towns into ruins and you will be desolate. Then you will know that I am the LORD.5 " 'Because you harbored an ancient hostility and delivered the Israelites over to the sword at the time of their calamity, the time their punishment reached its climax,6 therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 7 I will make Mount Seir a desolate waste and cut off from it all who come and go.8 I will fill your mountains with the slain; those killed by the sword will fall on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines.9 I will make you desolate forever; your towns will not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the LORD.10 " 'Because you have said, "These two nations and countries will be ours and we will take possession of them," even though I the LORD was there, 11 therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will treat you in accordance with the anger and jealousy you showed in your hatred of them and I will make myself known among them when I judge you.12 Then you will know that I the LORD have heard all the contemptible things you have said against the mountains of Israel. You said, "They have been laid waste and have been given over to us to devour." 13 You boasted against me and spoke against me without restraint, and I heard it.14 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: While the whole earth rejoices, I will make you desolate.15 Because you rejoiced when the inheritance of the house of Israel became desolate, that is how I will treat you. You will be desolate, O Mount Seir, you and all of Edom. Then they will know that I am the LORD.' "

Looks desolate today. But don't the offspring of dumah and edom live on?

PHenry42 · Dec 3, 2011

Tell me when Arabs get zapped down by laser beams from heaven. Until then, I shall roll my eyes at your attribution of divine cause to perfectly mundane, ordinary human actions.

Drunk On Love · Dec 5, 2011

Looks desolate today. But don't the offspring of dumah and edom live on?

If a person happens to be "unlucky" enough to be born a descendent of such people does that make them evil? Does God judge us based on race?

Ishraqiyun · Dec 5, 2011

Apparently God hates you if you are born into the wrong family.

SanFrank · Dec 7, 2011

PHenry42 said:
Tell me when Arabs get zapped down by laser beams from heaven. Until then, I shall roll my eyes at your attribution of divine cause to perfectly mundane, ordinary human actions.

Prophecy is being fulfilled now and CNN seems to broadcast events that I can follow along in my Bible in real time.

Maybe not lazer beams but burning sulfur

"I will execute judgmenthttp://www.biblestudytools.com/ezekiel/38.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-42 upon him with plague and bloodshed;http://www.biblestudytools.com/ezekiel/38.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-43 I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstoneshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/ezekiel/38.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-44 and burning sulfurhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/ezekiel/38.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-45 on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him."http://www.biblestudytools.com/ezekiel/38.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-46

SanFrank · Dec 8, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
If a person happens to be "unlucky" enough to be born a descendent of such people does that make them evil? Does God judge us based on race?

Due to the sins of their forefathers (not only edom, also descendents of assyria that beat down israel a long time ago, descendents of babylon that beat down on israel a long time ago, egyptians too, ottomans, persians), I could see their sins being completed in islam by falling into the greatest deception of all time. Its the greatest hindrance to heaven that I know of. That is the rejection of the cross of Christ. Its a sad state to be in an islamic state.

But sin is not limited to these peoples but to all of mankind. Only Jesus saves.

SanFrank · Dec 8, 2011

Ishraqiyun said:
Apparently God hates you if you are born into the wrong family.

The end game for sin is death and G*d judges the wicked.

SanFrank · Dec 15, 2011

Another of Ishmael's sons was Nebaioth, his firstborn, and he ends up serving his uncle Isaac. People keep saying the G*d of the bible is the same as 'allah' but where is the servitude of ishmael's descendents towards Israel in the qur'an? Where is the destruction on many of ishmael's descendents in the qur'an? Please show me.

Tanakh, Isaiah 60
1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. 2 See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you. ...... 7 All Kedar's flocks will be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth will serve you; they will be accepted as offerings on my altar, and I will adorn my glorious temple. ......10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you. Though in anger I struck you, in favor I will show you compassion. ...... 14 The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15 "Although you have been forsaken and hated, with no one traveling through, I will make you the everlasting pride and the joy of all generations.

Grumpy Old Man · Dec 15, 2011

Ishraqiyun said:
Apparently God hates you if you are born into the wrong family.

An odd thing to say for a Christian.

Avelina777 · Dec 15, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
If a person happens to be "unlucky" enough to be born a descendent of such people does that make them evil? Does God judge us based on race?

No no no no no no no, he does not please do not get that impression. That is not was SF is saying. Christ died for ALL of us we all have a chance at salvation. We just have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior

PHenry42 · Dec 16, 2011

Funny how God is supposedly going to come down and defeat teh Muslamic HOARDES!!!1!11 when they attack Israel, but couldn't be bothered to do the same when the Wehrmacht came for the Jews just a few years before.

SanFrank · Dec 16, 2011

PHenry42 said:
Funny how God is supposedly going to come down and defeat teh Muslamic HOARDES!!!1!11 when they attack Israel, but couldn't be bothered to do the same when the Wehrmacht came for the Jews just a few years before.

Tell me if you see the same thing. The way I see it, Israel was (is) judged for its unfaithfulness but not as severely as her enemies. That is clear here:

Isaiah 27. 7 "Israel has not been punished by the Lord as severely as its enemies nor lost as many people. 8 The Lord punished his people by sending them into exile. He took them away with a cruel wind from the east."

(to the east as into europe during the diaspora)

World War II was a turning point; with incredible pains (as in labor during childbirth) and when hope was utterly and completely lost, the Jewish remnants were liberated and given access to their original homeland. Hope was lost in 1944, but all of a sudden and in one day, hope became reality, 1948, when Israel was born a nation.

Isaiah 66.7 "7 "My holy city is like a woman who suddenly gives birth to a child without ever going into labor. 8 Has anyone ever seen or heard of such a thing? Has a nation ever been born in a day? Zion will not have to suffer long, before the nation is born. 9 Do not think that I will bring my people to the point of birth and not let them be born." The Lord has spoken."

Words spoken over 2700 years ago. As a muslim, you need to see to believe; hearing does not work for you my friend.

PHenry42 · Dec 18, 2011

SanFrank said:
Tell me if you see the same thing. The way I see it, Israel was (is) judged for its unfaithfulness but not as severely as her enemies. That is clear here:
Isaiah 27. 7 "Israel has not been punished by the Lord as severely as its enemies nor lost as many people. 8 The Lord punished his people by sending them into exile. He took them away with a cruel wind from the east."

(to the east as into europe during the diaspora)

Except that Europe is to the northwest of Israel, not east. Geography fail.

Your eschatology is most convenient. If things go badly for the Jews, they are being punished by God, as is prophesized. If things go well for the Jews, they are being restored by God, as is prophesized. Regardless what happens, you can claim fulfilment of prophecy.

World War II was a turning point; with incredible pains (as in labor during childbirth) and when hope was utterly and completely lost, the Jewish remnants were liberated and given access to their original homeland. Hope was lost in 1944, but all of a sudden and in one day, hope became reality, 1948, when Israel was born a nation.
Isaiah 66.7 "7 "My holy city is like a woman who suddenly gives birth to a child without ever going into labor. 8 Has anyone ever seen or heard of such a thing? Has a nation ever been born in a day? Zion will not have to suffer long, before the nation is born. 9 Do not think that I will bring my people to the point of birth and not let them be born." The Lord has spoken."

Words spoken over 2700 years ago. As a muslim, you need to see to believe; hearing does not work for you my friend.

Except that Israel wasn't reborn magically and miraculously in a day. It was made official in a day, just like every other new country that appears, but it was built steadily over 50 years. It most definitely was not born in a day without ever having been in labor.

To dismiss the actual efforts made by Zionists over 50 years before 1948, are you sure that isn't antisemitic or something

Avelina777 · Dec 18, 2011

PHenry42 said:
Funny how God is supposedly going to come down and defeat teh Muslamic HOARDES!!!1!11 when they attack Israel, but couldn't be bothered to do the same when the Wehrmacht came for the Jews just a few years before.

The time will come.

Avelina777 · Dec 18, 2011

PHenry42 said:
Except that Europe is to the northwest of Israel, not east. Geography fail.

Your eschatology is most convenient. If things go badly for the Jews, they are being punished by God, as is prophesized. If things go well for the Jews, they are being restored by God, as is prophesized. Regardless what happens, you can claim fulfilment of prophecy.

Except that Israel wasn't reborn magically and miraculously in a day. It was made official in a day, just like every other new country that appears, but it was built steadily over 50 years. It most definitely was not born in a day without ever having been in labor.

To dismiss the actual efforts made by Zionists over 50 years before 1948, are you sure that isn't antisemitic or something

The Jews had control of Israel before you, so get over it.

SanFrank · Dec 28, 2011

Phenry, consider this prophesy that is about to be fulfilled. It seems to introduce muhammad who with his right-sided attributes, created a religion with a large folllowing.

Jeremiah 11:15 - 12:4
15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. 17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!" ... 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations."

muhammad's followers are now the surrounding peoples that are sent reeling.

SanFrank · Mar 11, 2012

Today Ashdod and Ashkelon are thriving Israeli cities, taken away from then philistines.

Amos 1.7"But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof: 8 And I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, and him that holdeth the sceptre from Ashkelon, and I will turn mine hand against Ekron: and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish , saith the Lord GOD."

Gaza was forsaken as written; as late as the israeli disengagement of 2004.

Zephaniah 2.4 "For Gaza shall be forsaken , and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up ."

Booko · Mar 11, 2012

SanFrank said:
Prophecy is being fulfilled now and CNN seems to broadcast events that I can follow along in my Bible in real time.

Yes, I recall many of my elders saying the exact same thing during the Cold War*, and they probably used the same texts you do, and probably a similar hermeneutic.

*Except it was "the papers" and Walter Cronkite then and not CNN.

Wally Cleaver · Mar 11, 2012

If the Arabs descend from Ishmael, who descends from Esau (Edom)? Could that not constitute the more Turkic peoples?

As Ishmael was Isaac's brother, Esau (Edom) was Jacob's brother

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