Who really goes to the eternal fire ?

WillieH

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Jesus used fire as a symbol of everlasting destruction, not eternal torment. For example, at Matthew 25:41, Jesus said: "Then he (the king, Jesus) will say, in turn, to those on his left, ' Be on your way from me, ' you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." If there were a literal "everlasting fire" for the "wicked" that is supposed to run by the Devil, then how could this place be "prepared for the Devil and his angels" so as for him to be thrown there ?

Revelation 20:10 says that "the Devil.....was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and false prophet already were and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." If the Devil runs a place of "everlasting fire", called by some as "hell", then who would now run it when he himself is thrown into and how can the everlasting fire hurt him since he is impervious to fire ?

Too, the book of Revelation was written in "signs" and therefore not literal. That explains that the "wild beast and false prophet" is symbolic, just as is the "lake of fire" and everyone thrown there is "tormented day and night forever and ever", symbolizing their everlasting restraint in death, for at Matthew 18:34, it says of the unforgiving slave: "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors (Greek ba·sa·ni·stes´, also rendered as "jailers"), till he should pay all that was due unto him."(King James Bible)

Further, at Revelation 20:14, it says that "death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire." Could either death or hades (mankind's common grave) be tormented by fire ? In a word No. Rather, they could be destroyed, never to plague mankind again. Verse 14 continues, explaining what the "lake of fire" is, saying: "This means the second death, the lake of fire." What is considered as the "first death" ?

The death that we received from our forefather Adam as a result of sin within our members or Adamic death. From this death, individuals can receive a resurrection (Greek a·na´sta·sis, meaning literally "a raising up; a standing up"). Individuals can ' stand up ' again in life. However, when a person receives the "second death", there is no hope of a resurrection. Thus, the "everlasting death" that Jesus spoke of means total annihilation.

At Deuteronomy 30:19, Moses, speaking for Jehovah God, gives only two directions for a person to go, saying to the nation of Israel: "I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you today, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring." Hence, either a person can live forever as a "blessing" or he can die as a "malediction". This choice is before everyone.

Ain't buyin any of this for a minute!

FIRST --- EVERLASTING LIFE ("living forever") is not even mentioned in this verse! YOU ADD to what is SAID by the use of "FOREVER"... which is NOT present in the text.

Actually the word "malediction" is CURSING... We can either be blessed (life) or cursed (in life). One REAPS what one SOWS, during and IN LIFE... not after it. -- Gal 6:8

DEATH is an issue confronting ALL MEN, for ALL have transgressed the LAW of GOD...

If we are SAVED by OUR "CHOICE" to be SAVED... then we SAVE ourselves. For without that CHOICE (according to you, and your "take" as to what is said here), then we DIE ---> "malediction"...

How UN-true this is. :doh:

GOD is our Savior. Not US, by ...OUR "CHOOSING", to be SAVED...

SECOND --- where did JESUS suggest "total ANNHILATION"? Again YOU ADD to the WORD what it DOES NOT SAY. You are treading upon dangerous ground Timbo3... very dangerous -- Prov 30:6 -- Deut 4:2 -- Rev22:18


Those who go to the "everlasting fire" or eternal destruction are Hades, Adamic death, the symbolic "wild beast" (all the governments of the earth), the "false prophet" (Britain/America dual world power), Satan and his demons, and all persistent practicers of wickedness on the earth.

More baloney. Please DEFINE EVERLASTING (with comprehension)... and PLEASE, ...do not offer "from now on"... for to "EVER - LAST"... means that in any direction of "LASTING", you are EVER there, ..."LASTING"...

IOW "everlasting" means --- WITHOUT BEGINNING of "LASTING"... as well as WITHOUT END of "LASTING"... ;)

The FIRE of GOD, is NOT DESTRUCTIVE... for HE IS the CREATOR... not the DESTRUCTOR... and HE BEING a CONSUMING FIRE... CREATES with that FIRE, nor DESTROYS.


PEACE... :groupray:


...willieH :clap:
 
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timbo3

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Ain't buyin any of this for a minute!

FIRST --- EVERLASTING LIFE ("living forever") is not even mentioned in this verse! YOU ADD to what is SAID by the use of "FOREVER"... which is NOT present in the text.

Actually the word "malediction" is CURSING... We can either be blessed (life) or cursed (in life). One REAPS what one SOWS, during and IN LIFE... not after it. -- Gal 6:8

DEATH is an issue confronting ALL MEN, for ALL have transgressed the LAW of GOD...

If we are SAVED by OUR "CHOICE" to be SAVED... then we SAVE ourselves. For without that CHOICE (according to you, and your "take" as to what is said here), then we DIE ---> "malediction"...

How UN-true this is. :doh:

GOD is our Savior. Not US, by ...OUR "CHOOSING", to be SAVED...

SECOND --- where did JESUS suggest "total ANNHILATION"? Again YOU ADD to the WORD what it DOES NOT SAY. You are treading upon dangerous ground Timbo3... very dangerous -- Prov 30:6 -- Deut 4:2 -- Rev22:18




More baloney. Please DEFINE EVERLASTING (with comprehension)... and PLEASE, ...do not offer "from now on"... for to "EVER - LAST"... means that in any direction of "LASTING", you are EVER there, ..."LASTING"...

IOW "everlasting" means --- WITHOUT BEGINNING of "LASTING"... as well as WITHOUT END of "LASTING"... ;)

The FIRE of GOD, is NOT DESTRUCTIVE... for HE IS the CREATOR... not the DESTRUCTOR... and HE BEING a CONSUMING FIRE... CREATES with that FIRE, nor DESTROYS.


PEACE... :groupray:


...willieH :clap:

When Jesus was on the earth, the religious leaders and most of the Jews did not "buy" what Jesus said either, but rather 37 years after Jesus death, suffered annihilation at the hands of the Roman armies under the command of General Titus in 70 C.E.(from April 3-August 25) For a person to be placed in an "everlasting fire" because of being "bad" after death would mean that they never died, for only that which is living can be tormented. This promotes the false religious belief in the immortality of the human soul.

However, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that "the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

Verse 10 says: "All that your hands finds to do, do with your very power (while alive), for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol (mankind's common grave, where individuals go after death), the place to which you are going." Without God's intervention after death, a person becomes non-existent, returning to the "dust" as God told Adam, saying: "For dust you are to dust you will return."(Gen 3:19)

Further, Psalms 146:3, 4 says: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs; His spirit (or life force) goes out, he goes back to the ground (or "dust"); In that day his thoughts do perish." We are aware of pain only when alive, when our thoughts are functioning.

When our "spirit" or life force leaves us, we return to the state of non-existence or death and thus no pain. There would be no need of a resurrection if a person never died; in fact, the word would not even be needed nor be in our vocabulary if such was the case.

Just as the person Adam did not exist before "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of the dust from the ground", blowing "into his nostrils the breath of life", so that "the man came to be a living soul."(Gen 2:7)

Death is associated with "malediction" (Hebrew qlalah, meaning vilification) at Deuteronomy 30:19, for when a person is dead, what can they do ? Ecclesiastes 9:10 says that "there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom" when dead. Just as car that is crushed, it now becomes a dead vehicle.

If you do not know what the word everlasting means, then you might want to look it up in a dictionary. At Matthew 25:41, Jesus used the Greek word aionion, meaning "perpetual."(Strong's G166) Hence, a person is perpetually dead when these are thrown into the "everlasting fire."

The apostle Paul wrote of those disregard Jehovah God's laws and principals, saying that "these very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction (Greek aionion olethron) from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."(2 Thess 1:9) That's simple enough !
 
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Why not address the points in my post ...instead of giving me videos to watch? :confused:

I will respond to your answers which come forth from YOU, but do not have time to watch videos which do NOT. ;)
PEACE... :groupray:
...willieH :clap:

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

The Videos have nothing to do with the subject directly [per se], other than they are musical [and one member informational], dealing with the Second Advent [and thus judgment, etc]. They are an indirect response - http://www.christianforums.com/t7617383/#post59357652

As for peace...

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

...they say, " ...Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace."

[There is] no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. Isaiah 57:21
 
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Cuddles333

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It looks like that the only way to try to counter God's afterlife judgment of eternal reward and eternal punishment, is to make the argument that all we are, and all we ever will be, is our physical body. When it perishes...we perish. This is not what the New Testament teaches.



2 Corinthians 5:6


6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:





1 Thessalonians 5:23

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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WillieH

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If you do not know what the word everlasting means, then you might want to look it up in a dictionary.

That you are quite limited in common understanding has been made quite obvious by this reply.

Since YOU infer to KNOW what the word "EVERLASTING" MEANS and therefore have comprehension of that MEANING...

Please EXPLAIN IN DETAIL --- How ANYTHING, including GOD, is WITHOUT BEGINNING... IOW, where did GOD come from, and when? ^_^

Until you can DO SO... you do not KNOW the meaning of this word which you use, and the evidence of your confused position therefore, remains.

Using words which YOU are unable to DEFINE, renders YOUR USAGE of them, INVALID and UNACCEPTABLE.


FYI... Concerning the "dictionary" ...this tool is not the end-all to the DEFINITION of words. It is a LIMITED and PROGRESSIVE report of the usages of words over time, ...and the definitions of those progressive (manifest) individual USAGES are subject to CHANGE...

Such as:

GAY in the 1950's ...meant -- HAPPY (period)


GAY in the 1980's ...came to mean HOMOSEXUAL (while STILL "meaning" "happy")


GAY in the 2000's ...came to mean LAME (while STILL "meaning" happy AND homosexual)

Someone in the far distant future could actually become quite confused as to the application of these words WITHOUT such an explanation.


If the "CONTEXT" just said ---> "Hey, that guy is GAY"... shall our future friend (automatically) consider the guy to be --- "happy", "homosexual", "lame" or a combination of these? :doh:


Any isolated usage of this word would either have to be particularly conveyed in and by the CONTEXT in which it is used, or defined by the USER in particular. If neither the context nor the USER defines the word, then any observation of it therefore, becomes SPECULATION by the OBSERVER (which is what YOU DO with the word EVERLASTING).




PEACE... :groupray:


...willieH :clap:
 
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WillieH

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For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

And you read this in LITERAL terms doya? The "DAY" is NOW... the CONSUMING FIRE is SPIRITUAL, and the STUBBLE is the wretched conditions that ALL SINNERS fall into, eventually ending in DEATH -- Rom 3:23 -- Rom 6:23 -- leaving them neither ROOT nor BRANCH... which are LIVING essences.

CHRIST died FOR the UNGODLY -- Rom 5:6 -- Do you think yourself as OTHER than part of the "UNGODLY", 3 angels? :confused:


3 Angels said:
The Videos have nothing to do with the subject directly [per se], other than they are musical [and one member informational], dealing with the Second Advent [and thus judgment, etc]. They are an indirect response - http://www.christianforums.com/t7617383/#post59357652

"Second advent" is just another unbiblical terminology... which is OF MEN, and NOT of the WORD.


As for peace...

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
FIRST -- PAUL in almost ALL his writings -- 1 Cor 1:3 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- Gal 1:3 -- Eph 1:2 -- Phil 1:2 -- Col 1:3 -- 1 Thess 1:1 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 1 Tim 1:2 -- 2 Tim 1:2 --Philemon 3 -- and PETER in his 2 letters -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 and JOHN -- 2 John 3 -- ALL wish PEACE in salutation as well as in farewell... do you think they were NOT preaching the TRUTH in offering this word, 3 angels?

SECOND -- JESUS noted this (Matt 10:34 above) because the SWORD (WORD of God is LIKE a 2 edged SWORD) of TRUTH would indeed separate not only brothers & sisters, husbands and wives, fathers & sons, Mothers and daughters, best friends, etc... for one would accept the TRUTH of JESUS CHRIST and the other not!

It is foolishness or a GRAND OVERSIGHT, to believe that He meant that His coming on the earth was not about PEACE! For the Scriptures indicate this about His COMPLETED MISSION:

Col 1:19-20 -- 19 - for it PLEASED the FATHER that IN HIM should ALL FULNEES dwell... 20 - and, ...HAVING MADE PEACE, through the BLOOD of HIS CROSS by Him... to RECONCILE -- ALL THINGS unto HIMSELF, by Him, I say whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

How in the world would the PEACE of HIS CROSS (which reconciled all things), not be about, ...PEACE, 3 Angels?

:confused: ...I await your explanation! :confused:



3 Angels said:
...they say, " ...Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace."

And this quote is found, where in the WORD, 3 Angels? :confused: ...and even so, there is so much evidence to the contrary, that this excerpt is likely pulled from a context to prove a carnal point... Certainly NOT that PEACE is not the goal of our LORD for us, and proposes otherwise, ...that He seeks TURMOIL?

Certainly BELIEVING in CHRIST, places one upon "riducules" pathway... be it a stranger or an unconverted family member!


3 Angels said:
[There is] no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. Isaiah 57:21

This verse is not a comment on whether or not PEACE was a part of the mission of CHRIST! It is a statement that where ...WICKEDNESS IS... PEACE ...is NOT...

While WICKEDNESS exists within the children, the PEACE of God does not.

For if one is immersed in INIQUITY, then the PEACE of PERFECTION is absent... even in the MANY BELIEVERS! -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- who profess to be ..."COME in HIS NAME"!

The LION'S SHARE of Christianity bears a message of BAD NEWS which contains FEAR, which is CONTRARY to LOVE -- which is about CASTING it (fear), ...OUT -- 1 John 4:18

Instead of the GOSPEL of ...PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- CHRISTIANITY busies itself with bringing the message of FEAR and/or TYRANNY (HELL or Annhilation) to the WORLD that GOD so UNCHANGINGLY, ...LOVES -- John 3:16-17 ... :sigh:

YHVH GOD is the GOD of PEACE -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2

Do you deny this, 3 angels?

Yet you and most of Christianity shall tell the WORLD that GOD shall either BURN THEM FOREVER [in TORMENT of HELL] or mercilessly (much as did HITLER), ...ANNHILATE them... when it was HE which brought them FORTH (of His decision) -- John 1:9 - Col 1:16 -- and HE which made them HUMAN and CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF (of His decision) -- Rom 11:32 -- with the PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL they would do? :doh:


This deduction is completely ILLOGICAL and WITHOUT REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- and IS the INIQUITY of the MANY which (think they) are "COME in His NAME" -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- Hos 4:6-7

Pull out before it is too late for you to do so, 3 angels... for GREAT SHAME awaits those who remain in the "system" called Christianity -- Rev 3:18 - Hos 4:7

As the CHURCH in its various CONFUSION, "commends" itself by its "good works", it therein ROBS the GLORY of GOD, from, ...YHVH God... :sigh:

PEACE... :groupray:


...willieH :clap:
 
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WillieH said:
And you read this in LITERAL terms do ya? The "DAY" is NOW... the CONSUMING FIRE is SPIRITUAL, and the STUBBLE is the wretched conditions that ALL SINNERS fall into, eventually ending in DEATH -- Rom 3:23 -- Rom 6:23 -- leaving them neither ROOT nor BRANCH... which are LIVING essences.

Malachi 4:1 is speaking of the Second Advent of Christ Jesus. It speaks in the 'future tense', "the day cometh", "shall burn", "shall be", "the day cometh", "shall burn them up", "shall leave...":

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

The very context is the Second Advent, ie "the Day of the Lord":

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

Notice it speaks of "the day" [a specific day], not some spiritualized 'purgation' [a Roman Catholic ideology], which is where universalism comes from.

In fact, there are so many scriptures that speak of the Second Advent of Jesus Christ, that they are more than they which speak of His first Advent. Even the Jews, in the time of Christ Jesus confused them, and looked for a mighty conquering warrior king... yet Christ Jesus came as the Lamb...

...the devil has simply swapped it again... most are looking for "peace", a "millennial on earth reign", and they shall not find it... they shall find "sudden destruction"...

WillieH said:
... CHRIST died FOR the UNGODLY -- Rom 5:6 -- Do you think yourself as OTHER than part of the "UNGODLY", 3 angels? :confused:

"Second advent" is just another unbiblical terminology... which is OF MEN, and NOT of the WORD.

Indeed, Christ Jesus, died for the ungodly, but there is so much more to it than that, like repentance, obedience to the will of God, belief, faith, endurance unto the end, abiding in Him, etc.

Terminology is merely representative of the ideology that the Bible does teach. The Bible does not use the word 'Bible'... there are many words it does not use, like 'atheism', but it exists in the Bible. So it is not whether the terminology [the word] exists, but whether the ideology or teaching is there to support such a word, or phrase, and scripture is clear that there is indeed a 2nd Advent.

Again, for more of a response, read one I have already written...

The Day Of The LORD - The Biblical TRUTH

WillieH said:
...

FIRST -- PAUL in almost ALL his writings -- 1 Cor 1:3 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- Gal 1:3 -- Eph 1:2 -- Phil 1:2 -- Col 1:3 -- 1 Thess 1:1 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 1 Tim 1:2 -- 2 Tim 1:2 --Philemon 3 -- and PETER in his 2 letters -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 and JOHN -- 2 John 3 -- ALL wish PEACE in salutation as well as in farewell... do you think they were NOT preaching the TRUTH in offering this word, 3 angels?

Peace and atonement with God... comes at a cost.

Not only did Christ Jesus die, but so must we...

...for salvation is that which freely costs everything:

And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23 [see also Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34, 10:21]

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:6

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

...and in atonement with GOD, there is still an ongoing process, even as typology of scripture shows. That the Lamb died was not the end...

Leviticus 16, Daniel 8:14, Hebrews, Revelation, etc.

...to be continued...
 
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WillieH said:
...

SECOND --JESUS noted this (Matt 10:34 above) because the SWORD (WORD of God is LIKE a 2 edged SWORD) of TRUTH would indeed separate not only brothers & sisters, husbands and wives, fathers & sons, Mothers and daughters, best friends, etc... for one would accept the TRUTH of JESUS CHRIST and the other not!

The Word of God, does indeed separate... and judges...

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

A direct quote from when He [Jesus] stated it at Mt. Sinai:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Jesus was speaking of the Ten Words, the Ten Commandments.

WillieH said:
...

It is foolishness or a GRAND OVERSIGHT, to believe that He meant that His coming on the earth was not about PEACE! For the Scriptures indicate this about His COMPLETED MISSION:

Col 1:19-20 -- 19 - for it PLEASED the FATHER that IN HIM should ALL FULNEES dwell... 20 - and, ...HAVING MADE PEACE, through the BLOOD of HIS CROSS by Him... to RECONCILE -- ALL THINGS unto HIMSELF, by Him, I say whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

How in the world would the PEACE of HIS CROSS (which reconciled all things), not be about, ...PEACE, 3 Angels?

:confused: ...I await your explanation! :confused:

See previous response for more detail. Again, peace comes at such a cost. And peace is found in Him, "For he is our peace..." Ephesians 2:14;p

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

And His word will continue to divide until the very last day. Wheat and Tares together..., sheep and goats... and then eternally separated, they in Christ Jesus unto Eternal Life, the others to Perish [John 3:16] in the 2nd Death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, and "no place found for them".

WillieH said:
...

And this quote is found, where in the WORD, 3 Angels? :confused: ...and even so, there is so much evidence to the contrary, that this excerpt is likely pulled from a context to prove a carnal point... Certainly NOT that PEACE is not the goal of our LORD for us, and proposes otherwise, ...that He seeks TURMOIL?

Certainly BELIEVING in CHRIST, places one upon "riducules" pathway... be it a stranger or an unconverted family member!

It was clearly cited. Look it up.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

The last enemy to be destroyed is death [1 Corinthians 15:26].

There indeed is a Great Controversy going on, between Christ Jesus and Satan. Revelation 12 reveals it, as does Job, wilderness temptations, etc.

The Battle is real, and Satan is seeking to take down as many people as possible to hurt Christ Jesus, even as a 'roaring lion seeking whom he may devour'.

WillieH said:
...

This verse is not a comment on whether or not PEACE was a part of the mission of CHRIST! It is a statement that where ...WICKEDNESS IS... PEACE ...is NOT...

While WICKEDNESS exists within the children, the PEACE of God does not.

For if one is immersed in INIQUITY, then the PEACE of PERFECTION is absent... even in the MANY BELIEVERS! -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- who profess to be ..."COME in HIS NAME"!

The LION'S SHARE of Christianity bears a message of BAD NEWS which contains FEAR, which is CONTRARY to LOVE -- which is about CASTING it (fear), ...OUT -- 1 John 4:18

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7

That is to say, "reverence GOD" in GODly fear, and in awesome wonder and obey HIM.

And of some have compassion, making a difference: Jude 1:22

With others:

And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jude 1:23

...'hellfire' will be real, and many will perish in the 2nd Death, never to have life again. It is a real event that is coming, though not yet.

Though there is good news even in this, and even in the 7 plagues to come.

WillieH said:
...

Instead of the GOSPEL of ...PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- CHRISTIANITY busies itself with bringing the message of FEAR and/or TYRANNY (HELL or Annhilation) to the WORLD that GOD so UNCHANGINGLY, ...LOVES -- John 3:16-17 ... :sigh:

YHVH GOD is the GOD of PEACE -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2

Do you deny this, 3 angels?

They have healed also the hurt [of the daughter] of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace. Jeremiah 6:14

For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace. Jeremiah 8:11

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3


Notice, the GOD of Peace does what if we let HIM, for GOD will not force anyone to Love HIM:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

[There is] no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked. Isaiah 48:22

[There is] no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. Isaiah 57:21


Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 33:11

WillieH said:
...

Yet you and most of Christianity shall tell the WORLD that GOD shall either BURN THEM FOREVER [in TORMENT of HELL] or mercilessly (much as did HITLER), ...ANNHILATE them... when it was HE which brought them FORTH (of His decision) -- John 1:9 - Col 1:16 -- and HE which made them HUMAN and CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF (of His decision) -- Rom 11:32 -- with the PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL they would do? :doh:


This deduction is completely ILLOGICAL and WITHOUT REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- and IS the INIQUITY of the MANY which (think they) are "COME in His NAME" -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- Hos 4:6-7

Pull out before it is too late for you to do so, 3 angels... for GREAT SHAME awaits those who remain in the "system" called Christianity -- Rev 3:18 - Hos 4:7

As the CHURCH in its various CONFUSION, "commends" itself by its "good works", it therein ROBS the GLORY of GOD, from, ...YHVH God... :sigh:...

Foreknowledge does not negate choice, it simply knows what the choice will be ...

Let speak a moment about what robs GOD... taking away the Judgment.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7604852-8/#post59002297

www.christianforums.com/t7604852-8/#post59002365

www.christianforums.com/t7604852-8/#post59002408

www.christianforums.com/t7604852-8/#post59002429

[Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]
[Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]
[Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]
[Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]
[Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]
[Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]
[Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]
[Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]
[Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]
[Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]
[Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]
[Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]
[Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]
[Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]
[Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]
[Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]
[Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]
[Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]
[Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]
[Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]
[Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]
[Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]
[Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]
[Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]
[Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]
[Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]
[Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]
[Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]
[Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]
[Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]
[Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]
[Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]

[Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]
[Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]
[Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]
[Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]
[Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]
[Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]
[Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]
[Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]
[Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]
[Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]
[Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]
[Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]
[Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]
[Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]
[Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]
[Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]

...Willie, by the grace of GOD, I will go through to the Kingdom in the ARK prepared by GOD. The 3 Angels Messages reveals that ARK...

...and so, even as Noah might have said, 'get in'.
 
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Timothew

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It looks like that the only way to try to counter God's afterlife judgment of eternal reward and eternal punishment, is to make the argument that all we are, and all we ever will be, is our physical body. When it perishes...we perish. This is not what the New Testament teaches.



2 Corinthians 5:6


6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:





1 Thessalonians 5:23

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment in store for unbelievers?

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, The penalty to be paid is destruction, not eternal torment.

According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

According to John 3:16, the fate of those who reject Christ is to perish, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Ezekiel, the soul who sins will die, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Jesus Christ, the road is wide that leads to destruction. He said destruction, not eternal torment.

According to God (recorded in Genesis) the result of sin is death and being returned to dust, not eternal torment.

According to the bible, there is no hell of eternal torment, there is only life in Christ or death without Christ.
 
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WillieH

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Malachi 4:1 is speaking of the Second Advent of Christ Jesus. It speaks in the 'future tense', "the day cometh", "shall burn", "shall be", "the day cometh", "shall burn them up", "shall leave...":

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1


A statement that says SHALL BE, does not inherently discuss the FUTURE... For instance, the 10 commandments... state THOU SHALT (old english for SHALL) NOT STEAL, KILL, etc...

GOD is not talking about the future at all... He is talking about NOW... NOW, thou SHALT NOT__________________

You read the WORD and attempt to bind GOD to YOUR belief. GOD is a GOD of NOW... He refers to Himself as "I AM"...

NOTHING ever happens in any element, except in NOW... there is no EXISTENT past or future, for all these are, are NOW that happened in time, or NOW that is yet to happen in time... but remain NOW where GOD is concerned ALL of the TIME.


3 angels said:
The very context is the Second Advent, ie "the Day of the Lord":

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

Notice it speaks of "the day" [a specific day], not some spiritualized 'purgation' [a Roman Catholic ideology], which is where universalism comes from.


I guess for you it must be put right before your FACE... before you shall have "understanding", and even then... likely your RELIGION will prevent you from gaining it.

Gen 2:4 -- These ARE the generations of the heavens and of the earth WHEN they were created, ...IN THE DAY... that YHVH God MADE the Heavens and the earth...

"IN THE DAY" -- all 6 DAYS in TIME, were IN the DAY of YHVH... ALL TIME is IN the DAY of YHVH...

YHVH is not bound by TIME, ...TIME is BOUND by YHVH... For,

HE DECLARES all that shall occur IN it -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and,
HE WORKS ALL THINGS within it -- Eph 1:11


3 angels said:
In fact, there are so many scriptures that speak of the Second Advent of Jesus Christ, that they are more than they which speak of His first Advent. Even the Jews, in the time of Christ Jesus confused them, and looked for a mighty conquering warrior king... yet Christ Jesus came as the Lamb...

...the devil has simply swapped it again... most are looking for "peace", a "millennial on earth reign", and they shall not find it... they shall find "sudden destruction"...


So many you did not LIST ONE which contains this term? ^_^

The "second advent" is YOUR (and your SDA) terminology, not the TERMINOLOGY of the WORD...

and your (religious) MESSAGE is NOT the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- which is come forth from the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33

You are, as are most religious... :sigh: ... about the NEGATIVE INIQUITY filled and SELF glorifying agenda of your religion, instead of fuflilling the GOSPEL (good news) COMMISSION CHRIST gave unto His church -- Matt 28:19-20 -- Mark 16:15


3 angels said:
Indeed, Christ Jesus, died for the ungodly, but there is so much more to it than that, like repentance, obedience to the will of God, belief, faith, endurance unto the end, abiding in Him, etc.


I certainly do not disagree that repentence and obedience are necessary for our well being, but again, these things are NOT done of ourselves...

Rather are by-products of SUBMISSION unto CHRIST, for HE is due ALL GLORY for any and ALL THINGS done which are right and are good.

Paul noted clearly that He lived, but no longer was it HE which lived, but CHRIST IN HIM that did the works -- Gal 2:20

REPENTENCE is NOT SOMETHING generated by US -- Rom 2:4 --
COMING to Him is not generated by US -- John 6:44 --
FAITH is not something generated by US -- Heb 12:2 --

Nor do WE do the "enduring" unto the end... for it is CHRIST which FINISHES FAITH in US which HE generated as well -- Heb 12:2


3 angels said:
Terminology is merely representative of the ideology that the Bible does teach.


We do not have to RE-TITLE those things which the BIBLE clearly teaches... that is the RELIGION which urges us to do so...


3 angels said:
The Bible does not use the word 'Bible'...

So what? ^_^ What has this to do with anything pertinent to this discussion? Use of the english term "BIBLE" (which is derived from the Latin word BIBLIA meaning BOOKS), is neither here nor there. I usually refrain from the use of this word and when referring to the Scriptures, I use the term WORD which IS in the Scriptures = LOGOS


3 angels said:
there are many words it does not use, like 'atheism', but it exists in the Bible.

Where? The word "HEATHEN" appears, but all the word "HEATHEN" means is GENTILE... which is any race other than ISRAEL/JUDAH...

3 angels said:
So it is not whether the terminology [the word] exists, but whether the ideology or teaching is there to support such a word, or phrase, and scripture is clear that there is indeed a 2nd Advent.

ALL this strawman baloney means nothing. The words ATHEISM and BIBLE are not DOCTRINES which are taught by the Church...

The 2nd ADVENT is a viewpoint which is EXTRA BIBLICAL... and unnecessay.


3 angels said:
Again, for more of a response, read one I have already written...

The Day Of The LORD - The Biblical TRUTH


If you have something to say, then SAY it. Otherwise, placing links to your writings (as far as I am concerned), is a VAIN and useless practice.

I am NOT interested in what you wrote to another... I am interested in what you have to say IN THIS DISCUSSION (if anything!).


3 angels said:
Peace and atonement with God... comes at a cost.

Not only did Christ Jesus die, but so must we...


Our DEATH is due to OUR WORKS, and is RECOMPENSIVE PAYMENT unto us for those WORKS.

It is what WE REAP for what we have SOWN... Our DEATH, ...PAYS for NOTHING.

Only the DEATH of CHRIST on our behalf, has any relevance at all -- Rom 5:6 -- 1 Tim 2:6


3 angels said:
...for salvation is that which freely costs everything:

And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23 [see also Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34, 10:21]

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:6

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

...and in atonement with GOD, there is still an ongoing process, even as typology of scripture shows. That the Lamb died was not the end...


This actually says nothing pertinent to the discussion, which is about "who really goes to the eternal fire"... which is NO ONE.

ETERNAL encompasses ALL... anything "eternal" was, is, and will be... whatever is applied.

NO MAN shall ever suffer ETERNAL fire, ...ETERNALLY, that is ridiculous.

Rather we are AMIDST (the FIRE of) GOD, ...NOW -- Acts 17:28 -- which GOD, IS a CONSUMING (SPIRITUAL) FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which IS (not will be) CONSUMING the acts of EVIL, NOW -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- for the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW -- John 12:31

ETERNAL FIRE consumes on an ETERNAL basis. The FIRE does not LAST eternally...

Jude 7 ...says... that Sodom and Gomorrah were an EXAMPLE of ETERNAL (aionios=time oriented) FIRE... Not only did the FIRE against Sodom & Gomorrah have a BEGINNING, but an END as well... DISQUALIFYING your vengence against it.

Truth is that the FIRE, ...CONSUMED what was EVIL in these 2 cities, and once it was done with CONSUMING the EVIL, it WENT OUT, for its JOB was COMPLETE... and said "FIRE", ... NO LONGER BURNS.


GOD is LOVE... and IS ALL MERCIFUL... when shall you learn WHO and WHAT ...HE IS, ...3 angels?

peace...
:groupray:


...willieH :clap:
 
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msmorality

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For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

The Videos have nothing to do with the subject directly [per se], other than they are musical [and one member informational], dealing with the Second Advent [and thus judgment, etc]. They are an indirect response - http://www.christianforums.com/t7617383/#post59357652

As for peace...

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

...they say, " ...Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace."

[There is] no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. Isaiah 57:21

Are you of the opinion that the wicked are done away with, without any hope that they will turn away from wickedness ?
 
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timbo3

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That you are quite limited in common understanding has been made quite obvious by this reply.

Since YOU infer to KNOW what the word "EVERLASTING" MEANS and therefore have comprehension of that MEANING...

Please EXPLAIN IN DETAIL --- How ANYTHING, including GOD, is WITHOUT BEGINNING... IOW, where did GOD come from, and when? ^_^

Until you can DO SO... you do not KNOW the meaning of this word which you use, and the evidence of your confused position therefore, remains.

Using words which YOU are unable to DEFINE, renders YOUR USAGE of them, INVALID and UNACCEPTABLE.


FYI... Concerning the "dictionary" ...this tool is not the end-all to the DEFINITION of words. It is a LIMITED and PROGRESSIVE report of the usages of words over time, ...and the definitions of those progressive (manifest) individual USAGES are subject to CHANGE...

Such as:

GAY in the 1950's ...meant -- HAPPY (period)


GAY in the 1980's ...came to mean HOMOSEXUAL (while STILL "meaning" "happy")


GAY in the 2000's ...came to mean LAME (while STILL "meaning" happy AND homosexual)

Someone in the far distant future could actually become quite confused as to the application of these words WITHOUT such an explanation.


If the "CONTEXT" just said ---> "Hey, that guy is GAY"... shall our future friend (automatically) consider the guy to be --- "happy", "homosexual", "lame" or a combination of these? :doh:


Any isolated usage of this word would either have to be particularly conveyed in and by the CONTEXT in which it is used, or defined by the USER in particular. If neither the context nor the USER defines the word, then any observation of it therefore, becomes SPECULATION by the OBSERVER (which is what YOU DO with the word EVERLASTING).




PEACE... :groupray:


...willieH :clap:

The word "everlasting" in Hebrew is ‘adh (meaning "duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity", Strong's H5703) and is akin to the Hebrew word ‘ohlam, that literally means "hidden or concealed time, time out of mind"(Strong's H5769) and is properly rendered as "time indefinite" in the New World Translation. Both of these words are used at Psalms 10:16, which says: "Jehovah is King to time indefinite (Heb. ohlam), even forever (Heb. adh)." The King James Bible renders both words as "forever" or "everlasting."

Concerning God being everlasting, Moses wrote that he is "from everlasting to everlasting" (literally "time indefinite to time indefinite", or ohlam adh ohlam, with the Hebrew word adh (Strong's H5704) serving to emphasize the everlastingness of Jehovah God) at Psalms 90:2.(King James Bible).

Further, at Revelation 15:3, it says: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways. King of eternity."("eternity", Greek aionion, KJV reads "King of saints", but the oldest manuscripts reads "King of eternity", such Papyrus Chester Beatty 3, Greek, 3rd century C.E. located in Dublin, Ireland, as well as the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century C.E.. located in the British Museum, as well as Jerome's Latin Vulgate of about 405 C.E.)

Thus, Jehovah God had no beginning nor will have an end. It is impossible to grasp this, for our minds keep wanting to find the beginning, with everything we know having a starting point, but uniquely in this case, cannot be done. He alone is without beginning.
 
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WillieH

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The word "everlasting" in Hebrew is ‘adh (meaning "duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity", Strong's H5703) and is akin to the Hebrew word ‘ohlam, that literally means "hidden or concealed time, time out of mind"(Strong's H5769) and is properly rendered as "time indefinite" in the New World Translation. Both of these words are used at Psalms 10:16, which says: "Jehovah is King to time indefinite (Heb. ohlam), even forever (Heb. adh)." The King James Bible renders both words as "forever" or "everlasting."


(1) -- The word OWLAM was INSPIRED to describe the "time" that JONAH testified that he spent in the belly of the FISH:

Jonah 2:6 -- I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars were about me FOR EVER [owlam]; yet thou has brought up my life from corruption, O YHVH my God.

Obviously Jonah was NOT ...IN... the fish FOR + EVER. ;)

(2) -- Words used by men are INVALID unless they are comprehended when USED... FOREVER does not mean "from now-on" ^_^

EXPLAIN how GOD has NO BEGINNING (half of the meaning of "forever")... When did "GOD begin"? Where did "GOD come from"? etc...

The TRUTH is that GOD ...ALWAYS IS... (not was or will be)... No sinful human being can explain how GOD - ALWAYS IS, ...including YOU.

(3) -- TIME is a created FINITE entity (see Gen 1)... prior to its CREATION, it WAS NOT. Also, it shall come unto an END -- Matt 28:19-20 -- Rev 10:6



timbo said:
Concerning God being everlasting, Moses wrote that he is "from everlasting to everlasting" (literally "time indefinite to time indefinite", or ohlam adh ohlam, with the Hebrew word adh (Strong's H5704) serving to emphasize the everlastingness of Jehovah God) at Psalms 90:2.(King James Bible).

I think you are in need of LEARNING (being a student first), instead of trying to TEACH.

TIME is a FINITE entity which HAS a beginning and SHALL end... and cannot be EVERLASTING in any way because of those parameters.

(1) -- Please... do you take the entire Scriptures to be LITERAL? ^_^ They are SPIRITUAL language which is SPIRITUALLY understood -- 1 Cor 2:14

(2) -- "everlasting to everlasting does NOT "literally mean "time indefinite to time indefinite"... ^_^ TIME was created (BEGAN) and shall come to an END.

"Everlasting to Everlasting" means:

EVERLASTING = that which PRECEEDED TIME (and its creation)... and once TIME is COMPLETED, returning to that which PRECEEDED TIME = EVERLASTING...

from PERFECT/everlasting -- through IMPERFECT/time -- back to PERFECT/everlasting

EXAMPLE ...you leave New York [everlasting]... traverse the earth (time)... return to New York [everlasting].

NEW YORK was/is the alpha AND the OMEGA of your trip... New York remains IN PLACE being where your journey began, remained in place durning your journey, ...and was where your journey ended!

See the Parable of the LOST SON... He was "WITH the Father", ...went on a journey into a far country (time/earth)... returned to where he began, "WITH the Father"


timbo said:
Further, at Revelation 15:3, it says: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways. King of eternity."("eternity", Greek aionion, KJV reads "King of saints", but the oldest manuscripts reads "King of eternity", such Papyrus Chester Beatty 3, Greek, 3rd century C.E. located in Dublin, Ireland, as well as the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century C.E.. located in the British Museum, as well as Jerome's Latin Vulgate of about 405 C.E.)

Thus, Jehovah God had no beginning nor will have an end. It is impossible to grasp this, for our minds keep wanting to find the beginning, with everything we know having a starting point, but uniquely in this case, cannot be done. He alone is without beginning.

(1) -- Glad you admit (as do I admit) that you (nor I, nor anyone else) cannot GRASP the ETERNAL... and BECAUSE you are UNABLE to GRASP this word, you are therefore not entitled to USE it concerning any other FINITE being such as yourself, which is my point!

(2) -- ALL that is emergent of Him is also ETERNAL for He is unchanging, and anything which is was or will be a PART of Him, ...emerges from Him, being an ETERNAL PART of Him which IS ETERNAL and which does NOT CHANGE.

This is a fact, without regard to our limited finite COMPREHENSION which is unable to grasp this.

That WE do not comprehend our existence with Him prior to this realm (because of SIN), ...does not eliminate it as a FACT, for IT is TESTIFIED in the WORD -- Job 38:7 -- ALL the SONS of GOD "shouted for JOY" at the creation... So any being which (was [everlasting], is [in time] or will be [everlasting] a SON, ...always IS a SON.

As I previously noted... the LOST SON (Rom 15:11-32) was WITH THE FATHER, ...left -- for a time -- and eventually returned to be WITH THE FATHER

The JOURNEY was in TIME... the existence of the SON ...IS... ALWAYS. for the SONS emerge from the ETERNAL FATHER who does NOT CHANGE... including any PART of Himself (which His sons are)...



PEACE... :groupray:


...willieH :clap:
 
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Are you of the opinion that the wicked are done away with, without any hope that they will turn away from wickedness ?

Hello Msmorality,

In order to fully understand what is to take place with regards to either the 'righteous' or the 'wicked', we must understand how mankind was made, and what happens when mankind dies...

So... The wicked will be comletely destroyed in the second death, which comes after the 1000 years [Revelation 20]. If there are any questions concerning this, please ask.

All are called to repentance while they live. There are many who refuse to repent and heed that call. Should they die, they return to dust, as Christ Jesus says [and yea all of scripture] that they are then "asleep", and are without hope, and without Christ. They will remain as such, dead, not knowing anything, until they are resurrected to face the final execution of judgment [aka Great White Throne] and face their actions/choices. The second death takes place, from which there is no resurrection, no more chances, satan, his angels and them who continually refused Christ Jesus and continued in rebellion will be ashes.

What would happen if Christ Jesus [against His own promises] undestroy the wicked or even satan, they would come up as they were, rebellious, unchanged. GOD will not force anyone to love HIM, neither force any to remain with HIM, nor force anyone to enter into Heaven or the New Earth to come, and HE will not alllow sin to continue.

Change [of our character] must take place now [born again, living daily], before those things. Today if ye will hear His voice... now is the accepted time... etc.

So, all of the wicked who have previously died, are "asleep" in their graves, returned unto dust, etc, 'awaiting' their resurrection in the 2nd Resurrection which takes place after the 1000 years. They had their chances, they refused them, and GOD knows their hearts, and knows that they will never cease from rebellion and if they could, would pull GOD from HIS throne.

But while they yet live, now on this earth, they still can repent - for the door of mercy is not yet shut, but there is such a time coming, when the probation for mankind will be closed forever, and none will be able to enter in afterward.
 
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msmorality

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Hello Msmorality,

In order to fully understand what is to take place with regards to either the 'righteous' or the 'wicked', we must understand how mankind was made, and what happens when mankind dies...

So... The wicked will be comletely destroyed in the second death, which comes after the 1000 years [Revelation 20]. If there are any questions concerning this, please ask.

All are called to repentance while they live. There are many who refuse to repent and heed that call. Should they die, they return to dust, as Christ Jesus says [and yea all of scripture] that they are then "asleep", and are without hope, and without Christ. They will remain as such, dead, not knowing anything, until they are resurrected to face the final execution of judgment [aka Great White Throne] and face their actions/choices. The second death takes place, from which there is no resurrection, no more chances, satan, his angels and them who continually refused Christ Jesus and continued in rebellion will be ashes.

What would happen if Christ Jesus [against His own promises] undestroy the wicked or even satan, they would come up as they were, rebellious, unchanged. GOD will not force anyone to love HIM, neither force any to remain with HIM, nor force anyone to enter into Heaven or the New Earth to come, and HE will not alllow sin to continue.

Change [of our character] must take place now [born again, living daily], before those things. Today if ye will hear His voice... now is the accepted time... etc.

So, all of the wicked who have previously died, are "asleep" in their graves, returned unto dust, etc, 'awaiting' their resurrection in the 2nd Resurrection which takes place after the 1000 years. They had their chances, they refused them, and GOD knows their hearts, and knows that they will never cease from rebellion and if they could, would pull GOD from HIS throne.

But while they yet live, now on this earth, they still can repent - for the door of mercy is not yet shut, but there is such a time coming, when the probation for mankind will be closed forever, and none will be able to enter in afterward.


Thank you for your reply. I can understand why you would come to this conclusion from passages in the bible.

Have you considered other passages that also indicate the completed victory of Christ sacrifice ?

Specifically that every knee will bow and will confess allegiance , To the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

I agree with your point that God never forces worship. Therefore, it appears that this is a promise that will take place in the future. It is an event that all people will come to worship and bow before God by their own free will, and human freedom. God would not accept any forced worship.

"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Phil 2:10, Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Eph 1:10, Rev 5:13
 
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Thank you for your reply. I can understand why you would come to this conclusion from passages in the bible.

Have you considered other passages that also indicate the completed victory of Christ sacrifice ?

Specifically that every knee will bow and will confess allegiance , To the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

I agree with your point that God never forces worship. Therefore, it appears that this is a promise that will take place in the future. It is an event that all people will come to worship and bow before God by their own free will, and human freedom. God would not accept any forced worship.

"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Phil 2:10, Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Eph 1:10, Rev 5:13

Indeed, every knee shall bow and truly acknowledge that He is Lord, but that does not change their heart, it is merely a truthful admission after seeing the evidence of their lives, of Christ crucified, of the many times that they had to repent, the many times that GOD had mercy upon them, yet still the refused to heed HIM...

...it is the confession of Judas... not of Peter...

...a worldly sorrow [sorrow that it must end], not a GODly one [a sorrow of true repentance]...

Final Events:

Final Events of Bible Prophecy - YouTube

also see:

Cosmic Conflict:

Cosmic Conflict - The Origin of Evil (AmazingFacts ©) - YouTube
 
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Indeed, every knee shall bow and truly acknowledge that He is Lord, but that does not change their heart, it is merely a truthful admission after seeing the evidence of their lives, of Christ crucified, of the many times that they had to repent, the many times that GOD had mercy upon them, yet still the refused to heed HIM...

...it is the confession of Judas... not of Peter...

...a worldly sorrow [sorrow that it must end], not a GODly one [a sorrow of true repentance]...

Final Events:

Final Events of Bible Prophecy - YouTube

also see:

Cosmic Conflict:

Cosmic Conflict - The Origin of Evil (AmazingFacts ©) - YouTube

" Everyone will confess allegiance to me." Isa 45:23

Confessing allegiance according to the Hebrew usage and language is a repentance of a changed heart. All accomplished by a promise by the Lord Himself.

:clap:Food for thought:

If there was one city that more than any other represented God’s judgment of the wicked it would be Sodom. And if there was a city that one could confidently say would never be saved, surely that city was Sodom. And yet we read in Ezekiel 16 that Sodom herself will be restored.

“However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.” (Ezek 16:53-55 – NIV)


This restoration of Sodom is not to her former wickedness.but rather to a state in total conformity to God’s original plan.

“[The Lord] himself shall intervene; He shall grant a new future to Sodom, as well as to Samaria and Jerusalem. That is an abundant promise. For Sodom had been wiped out centuries earlier. Samaria had been destroyed and conquered in 721/720 B.C. And Jerusalem is about to fall. It almost seems like a resurrection from the dead. Nothing is impossible with [the Lord]…

“The situation has changed dramatically. All three — Sodom, Samaria, and Jerusalem — with neighboring towns and villages, will regain their former status, fully conform to God’s original plan. It will be just as in the beginning when the Garden of Eden existed and just as in the end when the New Jerusalem will descend from on high.”
- B. Maarsingh
 
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