Affirmative Action/Reverse Racism

Originally posted by Cammie
Novice teachers, huh? So a four-year degree WITH STUDENT TEACHING EXPERIENCE means nothing to you? What should we do, pull established teachers out of their districts and make them teach in the inner-city schools?

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are you saying an experienced teacher will provide the same quality of teaching as a teacher directly out of a degree with little in-class experience? im not suggesting you 'pull' teachers anywhere, im saying you need to give more incentive to work in the suburbs that currently have a disproportionate amount of experienced teachers compared to the rest of the state.

And your whole lines about education and teachers makes NO SENSE. None. Whatsoever. Any teacher that goes through college and gets a degree is capable of being a great teacher--even with your claim of limited resources.

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capable they are, i agree, they have the potential. however, they will not be as good a teacher until they have experience, and as soon as they do get experience statistics show they will move to areas with low-minority low-poverty schools. please read the aricle i linked to. and to compound this problem, the teachers which do tend to stay in the high-poverty high-minority suburbs are those who are inadequately educated in teaching themselves, and a disproportionate amount are teaching subjects they have not even minored in. its all very well to have the degree, but if youre not teaching the correspoding subject...

The problem is NOT teachers!

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i think ive established they are part of the problem in as far as they are symptomatic of a far larger problem with the system.

It's not funding either, because ALL public schools in states get equal funding, depending on the number of students in the school system.

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i think you'll find school funding is directly linked to property taxes. hence, high-poverty areas get lower funded schools. its strange how i know this and yet im not american.

WHY can't we blame the students for lack of motivation and drive, and blame their parents for not caring?

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because you have shown no evidence which suggests this. not even indirectly. when you claim something Cammie, you need to back it up, just as i have done.

What is so wrong with putting responsibility where it belongs?

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because you have not shown me, with evidence, how the responsibility for inadequate educational resources lies anywhere but with the system itself.

We have "minority" parents who WERE discriminated against, teaching their children--who have had equal rights their whole lives-- that they're OWED handouts. THAT is where the problem is. [/B]

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youre delusional if you think there is racial equality in the western world, let alone anywhere else.

and capitalising certain words in your arguments does not make your points any more valid.

Teachers have to get experience somewhere, and they have to start teaching at some point.

Property taxes is not the only funding schools get. In the state of Michigan, where I live, the school is paid so much PER student, and it has NOTHING to do with property taxes. So, even low poverty areas get decent funding in my state.

Give me some time, and I'll find you facts that PROVE "minority" students don't work as hard, and are not as motivated. One of those facts is simply because they don't HAVE to be--they get handouts. But I will be back with some facts.

Everything should be equal!

No matter the income,race or whatnot...........

If a college has financial aid every student should get the same amount of support from it.

If individuals can't thats because the're being LAZY
People need to get off their butts and earn thing through thier own merit!
We can't be wiping their butts for them ........


I agree W/ our president: George Hebert Walker Bush Jr. 110%

God Bless,

Hector

How convenient that he would advocate merit as the only standard now that he already has his degree from a college which he clearly got into due to wealth and heritage. These wonderful ideals only seem to be applied when policies benefit minorities. When non-students like Bush or Quale get in by other means, it's just the way things work.

Originally posted by Cammie
Give me some time and I'll find you facts that PROVE "minority" students don't work as hard, and are not as motivated.

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good luck finding these "facts."

Originally posted by Outspoken
Try living in Houston all your life, you get pretty intimate with "minority schools in low income areas."

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in what capacity have you become intimate with minority schools in low income areas?

Originally posted by Cammie
Teachers have to get experience somewhere, and they have to start teaching at some point.

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well obviously. thats not the problem. the problem is they start out in high-poverty schools and then as soon as they have the experience, they pack up and leave. Hence, high-pov high-min schools just get a constant flow of newbies who arent that great.

Property taxes is not the only funding schools get. In the state of Michigan, where I live, the school is paid so much PER student, and it has NOTHING to do with property taxes. So, even low poverty areas get decent funding in my state.

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and how is this per student rate determined? i think you'll find it has something to do with... whats this?... property tax!

Give me some time, and I'll find you facts that PROVE "minority" students don't work as hard, and are not as motivated. One of those facts is simply because they don't HAVE to be--they get handouts. But I will be back with some facts.

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oh, prove is such a dirty word sometimes...

and any 'facts' you do present me with regarding laziness i would immediately question the ethics, practise and methods of. you cannot measure laziness or motivation with yardsticks.

and please dont use the word 'facts' until you actually have some.

oh, and come to think of it, thankyou for addressing all the other points i went to the trouble of making Cammie. your effort is much appreciated.

Well, I'm not going to bother, since you wouldn't believe any of my "facts" anyway. I'll say this and be done with it. Any system that is based on anything less than merit is unfair and unethical, not to mention unconstitutional.

I have been discriminated against--SEVERAL times,and know several others who have also been a victim of reverse discrimination, and nothing you can say will make me pity "minorities" who basically have a free ride through life--with college, jobs and other opportunities. Until AA is done away with, the playing field will NEVER be leveled--for anybody.

"so you are saying the teachers are the problem? "

I have, you plainly stated in some teachers have no degrees..among other problems. the teachers are the problem.

"please state where i say they do not use the library"
it wasnt their fault they were ill-prepared firstly

Here you imply they didn't have suffient resources to do well in HS. IN context of my statements about using the library. You are eluding to them not using it, for if they did they would be prepared fully for college. If they didn't they are ill-prepared and it is their fault.

"but they should not be punished when the system is substandard and they are not given equal opportunities "

Nor should they be rewarded. they aren't being "punished". They are given enough oppertunity to succeed. If they choose not to take it, that is their fault and they should not be rewarded for being an underachiever.

"its illegal not to attend school."

Untrue. Homeschool and go to the library.

"teachers cannot be replaced and we cannot expect children without teachers to learn as much and as well as ones with teachers. "

Again, its a resource. If they dont' want to use it, or its a faulty resource, then I agree the resource should be revamped, as i have stated, get new teachers, but we are NOT to reward them for underachieving.

"we said that work in a library will not make up for a lack of appropriate standardised resources"

LOL what do you think is in the library? Standardized resources! I think you're just not thinking about this issue at all.

Outspoken, you agree, that the teachers are a faulty ressource.
You state, that other teachers should go there. Then please explain, how to get experienced and god teachers in a low funded school.
Would you, Outspoken take a job in town A when you get a job in town B, that pays double for the same work?

Originally posted by Cammie
Well, I'm not going to bother, since you wouldn't believe any of my "facts" anyway.

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i take it you couldn't find any "facts."

...nothing you can say will make me pity "minorities" who basically have a free ride through life--with college, jobs and other opportunities.

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cammie, cammie, cammie

be aware of comments made in your last two posts. have you waged war against AA or against minorities themselves?

http://www.adversity.net/all_pages.htm

There ya go. All KINDS of examples of reverse discrimination...and the site is not racist like you think I am (which I'm not).

Originally posted by Cammie
There ya go. All KINDS of examples of reverse discrimination...

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that's fine and dandy, but you promised "facts that PROVE 'minority' students don't work as hard, and are not as motivated."

I'm still awaiting those.

and the site is not racist like you think I am (which I'm not).

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i never said you were a racist, but some of your comments could be viewed as such.

Okay, I said that wrong. My facts prove that "minority" students don't HAVE to work as hard or be as motivated, because they get freebies and preferential treatment.

sauron - it is unfair and wrong for you to call the president unintelligent just because he had connections to get into yale. the bible says, "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." - Romans 8:7 and also "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities." Jude 1:8 and one more just for good measure, "Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people." -Acts 23:5

kenneth, I don´t think, that was the case. The point is, that Bush would not made it into Yale if not for family ties. A member of a minority with exact the same qualifications would not have gotten into, because of lacking family ties.
As long as the family ties give you this sort of advantage, don´t complain about AA. Screaming about handouts to minorities and in the same time don´t want to base it entirely on merits.

... if somone gets into Yale or Michigan or Maven U. because they are qualified, and fall under an AA program, fine....
but if the only reason they get in is because of an AA program, that's not so fine...

I never said I was against affirmative action. I merely pointed out that you insulting someone's intelligence that is in a position of power over you is against God's Word.

Why is pointing out,that Bush would not have made it into Yale without the help of his father insulting his intelligence? I mean, that is a fact, that his grades and test results weren´t sufficient enough. Wether this is due to intelligence, failure in learning, pure lazyness or whatever, no one knows. But the fact is the same.

So when someone scores not enough to get directly into Yale, but gets enough to be able to get in with family ties, that is ok, but if someone scores not enough to directly get into, but gets in with AA that is not ok?