Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Originally Posted by Lulav
G-d has created all the nations of the earth, but they do not all belong to him, that is why they are called heathens.I don't really understand this line of reasoning.
which part dena?
- G-d has created all the nations of the earth
- They do not all belong to him (are his people)
- They are called Heathens
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We are all one in Messiah.
Therefore, we should all follow one law.
This is shown in Torah:
How are we going to try and emulate Yeshuah, if we don't follow Torah?
That is just ludicrous.
Did He not say " . . . Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven?"
I will choose to follow what YHWH says over what man says.
Therefore, we should all follow one law.
This is shown in Torah:
How are we going to try and emulate Yeshuah, if we don't follow Torah?
That is just ludicrous.
Did He not say " . . . Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven?"
I will choose to follow what YHWH says over what man says.
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I believe that the Torah of our Teacher Yeshua contains the Torah of Moses but with specific priorities and focus. As followers of Yeshua, we are now under the authority Yeshuah. I think that the apostle Shaul was against the conversion of gentiles having faith in Yeshua to Judaism, less for a reason of legalism, but rather if gentiles believing in Yeshua submit themselves to the authority of Moses, thus denying the authority of Yeshua. This is also valid for sons of Messianic Jews. Yeshua commanded us to submit ourselves to the circumcision of the heart, of which mark is the cross. If the Holly Ghost call one of us to submit to the circumcision of the body, that should be centered on the blood of Yeshua, as a sign that we are ready to shed our blood, as an imitation of Yeshua, for His covenant with us. This procedure should not be performed by an Orthodox Rabbi who does this in the name of Moses, but by a Messianic Minister, this in the name of Yeshua. Practice of Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles should converge with the time; otherwise, if one separates these two groups with two different laws, we are at risk that Gentile Messianism will diverge from Jewish Messianism, the same as Chritianity from Judaism. I see the Divine Invitation, as presented by the First Fruit of Zion, to progressively fill the gap until our Messiah returns. Of course, I will vote No, because every believer has to submit to the Torah according to ones ability granted by the Holly Ghost.
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Seeking Him
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Acts 15 clearly states the Torah is not for Gentiles, otherwise for that matter, the Gentiles would have to become circumcised, and live the Torah, which the council said not to do. The Jewish Christians in Antioch, were not living Torah as far as festivals and foods. SH.
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F
from scratch
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Nice post. Sure wished more people realized this.
You sure were nice in GT. Come back and visit hear.
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Brother Sammy
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xDenax said:
Actually the word that is most often translated as "heathen" is the word goy in Hebrew ... plural is goyim. Goyim not only has been translated as heathen but also means nations. Today many words have been emptied of their original meaning and they often mean other things. Heathen now conotates a G-dless savage instead of meaning goy, someone not Jewish.
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...well, thats right, and negro means black, and gay means merry. We should use the words based on their current meaning, and heathen, as well as goyim is probably sounds offensive, esp in USA. There are less controversial ways to convey the point
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I voted "for everyone" but also believe that Torah is a living, breathing, changing , alive document, so to speak. Our understanding of it grows, some parts become obsolete, we dont need it anymore and nobody observes them, actually they become harmful if observed.
Some parts become more clear, we understand them better
Most Jews i know share this position, and i trust it to be very reflective of our spiritual progress as humans...
Some parts become more clear, we understand them better
Most Jews i know share this position, and i trust it to be very reflective of our spiritual progress as humans...
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Avodat
Contending for Biblical truth
Here is what I wrote on another thread, today. The law needs to be looked at with the whole Book in mind:
"Think about the fact that the Law was supposed to be in our hearts i.e. we would be given new hearts - to enable this to happen. IF this had been so (but isn't because of our choice not to live according to his law) there would be no need for the written law now. It was meant to become an integral part of who we are and how we live, to the exclusion of all else - as natural as breathing.
The written law was given to be learned by us to the extent that it is in our hearts, so that no longer will one say to another learn this or that, because all will know the law, that written law was meant to fade away - to be of no account, NOT because G_d got rid of it, but because it would have served its purpose and was no longer needed once we started living it.
Yeshua came to teach us the written law so that it would be written on our hearts. He came to show that it can be done IF we want to do it and all the Rabbinic niceties of the law would be to no purpose because we would live the law to its fullest - it would become life to us! He came to show the simple truth of G_d's teaching and that man, if he is serious in his relationship with G_d can live in this way, intuitively knowing right and wrong according to his teachings.
To this extent, and to this extent only, the written law was intended to be of no use after Yeshua died on the cross because he taught us all to embody it in our hearts and lives as a natural extension of who we are and how we live. This is how he became the fulfillment of the law - the perfect man with G_d's law at the very centre of his being. He never intended that we should rely on the written law - it would not be needed! That we are even discussing all this proves that we haven't done what G_d desired and commanded for us and we haven't learned what he died to teach us!"
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Deuteronomy 29 28 The hidden things belong to the Lord, our God, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah. The Gentiles, Goyim, etc. may not feel that way. In that case is Torah for them?
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