Matthew 11:12

Frankarmendariz said:

The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. —Matthew 11:12

does this mean theres violence in heaven???? theres no way that right?

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Fireinfolding said:

I was looking at these in relation to the violence, given the way of righteousness they did not know, and it speaks the earth being filled with violence by them, and given the Kingdom is within as SpiritInTruth well points out, I wonder if the violence can be split as shown through John (who come in the way of righteousness) who tells them "do no violence" (it shows they drink the wine of violence) and John prepping a people for the Lord (preaching the Kingdom) which is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost?

He perceives their thoughts of a Kingdom that would "immediately" appear

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Straightway means "immediately" in respects to wine

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.


Heres wine and violence...

Prov 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

Whereas no more violence

Isaiah 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

John likewise speaks of doing no violence

Luke 3:14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

So violence no more, call thy walls salvation, and of John it says

Luke 1:26 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness,

And John preparing the way before the Lord (who would baptize in the Holy Ghost)

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
　
However...

Psalm 120:7 I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.
　
And...

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?


In a sense, the manifestation of the sons of God isnt immediate in a way, there appears to be the outworking, just as the Kingdom of God (which is within) does not appear immediately (which is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost) likewise we bear fruit with patience, and tribulation worketh the same patience and the fruit of righteousness is sown of them which make for peace. Suffering others (so to speak) in various ways. The violence would come through the yet carnal, not under the control yet of the Holy Spirit, being yet brought under subjection, whereas it would appear to me the older (and stronger) must bear with the failings of the weaker whereas tolerance (in the stronger) can be better perceived as well.

Not sure, but wondering if this could apply, I've always wondered what that could mean, especially given Jesus said if someone smites you on the cheek, turn the other, and loving those who dont love you back, the carnal mind is great hatred toward God. However, while we were yet His enemies (in our minds) He loved us, so we would have two coexisting together (one on milk yet, a babe, still yet canal, not yet able, so walking as men) the other, which is the full age, on meat, which do the will of God, made able by the Spirit. Which is the stronger of the two. However, that strength is not manifested in reviling back, but greater strength to turn the other cheek, whereas the carnal rail back, smite, etc, sorta out of control not yet fully in control of himself (or rather) under the control of the Spirit.

Sorta makes sense to me, one suffers the other (so to speak). The stronger (who are made so by the Spirit) have a far greater ability to take (the blows) without the overpowering need to return it (as one ruled by his own spirit). The stronger someone is made in Christ the more under control his own spirit will be.

Just my two cents, I could be wrong, I was just thinking on this.

God bless you

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InSpiritInTruth said:

Good insights Fire!

The struggle being twofold, that which is without. and that which is within.

Without the disciples of the Lord suffered violence.

In Luke 10:10-11 Jesus told his disciples that whatsoever city they entered, and recieved them not, they were to proclaim that the kingdom of God has come near unto you.

This same message of the kingdom was delivered by the prophets of old, who also suffered violence at the hands of evil men.

Just as in 1 Thessalonians 2:15;"Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, are are contrary to all men."

But Paul spoke of the struggle within when he said ...

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

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Frankarmendariz said:

what does carnal mean? and what if its violence for self-defence, like if someone is trying to kill or rape you?

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