License to Procreate

I also thinking spanking is wrong. You are teaching your child to hit--period. Better be safe than sorry...even if it doesnt affect everyone the same, why chance it? There are more loving, gentler ways of discipline.

It truly is hard to know where one stands until they have children and those children start needing some kind of discipline. My toddler is entering the tantrum stage and wow is it challenging! I still haven't decided what I'll do as she gets older, I've turned things over and over in my mind. I wont say that physical discipline is abuse, because I dont see it that way. But if I find other techniques much more effective, I will want to use those instead. Too many times I do think spanking is the easiest (and laziest) resort for parents to use. My child is not an animal that you beat it and it responds, that's just psychological hooey fooey for the person who uses training animals for an example for parents and kids. My kid isnt an animal, she's a human being with emotions and a spirit.

Here is a great quote:

"If parents are not going to spank their children when their children are big and strong enough to physically overpower their parents, it seems to me that choosing to spank them when they are small is somewhat thoughtless, and perhaps even cowardly. I believe that every human being can be thoughtless and cowardly at times, so I am not condemning people who spank their children; I am condemning the act of hitting another human being."
Should Parents Spank Their Children?

JRSut1000 said:

It truly is hard to know where one stands until they have children and those children start needing some kind of discipline. My toddler is entering the tantrum stage and wow is it challenging! I still haven't decided what I'll do as she gets older, I've turned things over and over in my mind. I wont say that physical discipline is abuse, because I dont see it that way. But if I find other techniques much more effective, I will want to use those instead. Too many times I do think spanking is the easiest (and laziest) resort for parents to use. My child is not an animal that you beat it and it responds, that's just psychological hooey fooey for the person who uses training animals for an example for parents and kids. My kid isnt an animal, she's a human being with emotions and a spirit.

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I think you hit the nail on the head when you said its often the easiest and laziest method of discipline. That is why you generally see greater number of uneducated people hitting their child vs educated.

Thats another thing, I DONT like the idea of hitting a small child because they arent old enough to understand the moral aspects behind behavior. But an older child (youth) will understand. So IF the rod literally means physical punishment, I think its for 'youth' (thats the proper translation), and not small children.

JRSut1000 said:

Thats another thing, I DONT like the idea of hitting a small child because they arent old enough to understand the moral aspects behind behavior. But an older child (youth) will understand. So IF the rod literally means physical punishment, I think its for 'youth' (thats the proper translation), and not small children.

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Well, do you think its a bit cowardly to hit a child that is defenseless? The only reason why physical punishment is acceptable is because the child cannot fight back. How is that ideal?

I've seen so many good posts from parents who have spanked, or at least don't view it as child abuse, but they seem to have been glossed over and/or ignored.
So there's really no point discussing this further, is there?

-Niffer

Niffer said:

I've seen so many good posts from parents who have spanked, or at least don't view it as child abuse, but they seem to have been glossed over and/or ignored.
So there's really no point discussing this further, is there?

-Niffer

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I'm so tired of being told that everyone who doesn't spank views it as child abuse. See, that's MY posts being glossed over. I have been told that I want to ban spanking, that I verbally abuse my children - based upon absolutely nothing, btw, and that I think that all spanking is abuse. So you want to talk about glossed over?

But as to whether it should be discussed further, that's up to the OP. If she wants to close the thread, she can.

I grant that at points the state has jurisdiction to punish violations of moral law which occur solely internally to a given family, such as fratricide, though there are of course many points of alleged jurisdiction which are dubious or debated (as in recent cases in the US of removing children from their homes due to child obesity).

Yet for license to procreate to exist, an assumption of the legitimacy of jurisdiction must be present for some party such as civil government. Given the assumption of legitimacy (which I grant for the sake of argument alone), the first question is thus not what criteria to apply to procreation and parenting licenses, but who has the right to define and enforce the criteria.

If history is any guide, such questions are decided by politics, as if might determines right. This is not to say that power politics is always un-benevolent. Extremes tend to fertilize revolt. But if bad parenting is a social evil, state surrogacy has proven a notoriously poor alternative. Any state must rely on functional families much more than families on a functional state. Where the percentage of families are substantially dysfunctional, the condition of the state in question is fearful (as arguably in AIDS riddled areas of Africa even if not the closest illustration).

The condition of the US is not likely to mimic China in many respects, but the Chinese example may give us pause. Reports have reached me at least that factory working women have their menstrual cycles watched and publicly displayed. Licenses to procreate are generally issued one per couple (sometimes more for farming areas), and the state grants marriage licenses only to couples in their late 20s (if memory serves). Parents with a second pregnancy are usually taxed more heavily (or I may have a few details off, but you get the idea), and mothers with subsequent pregnancies are forced by the state to abort their children--often a traumatic experience. In a country that traditionally values male heirs (partly as a form of social security for aging parents), the substantial male/female ratio disparity and looming social problems follow.

Again, the US is not likely to follow suit exactly. But the eugenics specter has haunted our past, and indeed arguably present, as the prevalence of abortion clinics in minority communities and possibly in some respects cases of forced sterilization may suggest. Granting a problem especially with some parents, yet the solutions have not always been preferable to the social disease. The problem with Utopian government is that human nature applies to the governors as well as the governed.

Cartoon character Pogo the opossum and animal friends once marched around the swamp looking for bad guys. If I remember rightly, they chanced on some tracks, soon recognized as their own, to which Pogo famously remarked, "We have found the enemy, and he is us."

Of course on a Christian forum, one could suggest that the gospel of Jesus saves, that the power of God is needed to drag human nature from the mire and produce functional (if imperfect) parents and families. But conversion to Jesus is not something that can be enforced by government or any human in particular, since in human terms it is necessarily voluntary, and in divine terms brought to bear only for those on whom God chooses to show mercy. Thus the gospel will help, but only in certain cases.

JaneFW said:

I'm so tired of being told that everyone who doesn't spank views it as child abuse. See, that's MY posts being glossed over. I have been told that I want to ban spanking, that I verbally abuse my children - based upon absolutely nothing, btw, and that I think that all spanking is abuse. So you want to talk about glossed over?

But as to whether it should be discussed further, that's up to the OP. If she wants to close the thread, she can.

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Maybe there's a part of her post that you can read and I can't, but I don't see where she pointed out any specific posters. If you never said that all spanking is abuse then she isn't talking about you is she? No need to get defensive if no one pointed YOU out.

I don't think this thread is going to gain any more constructive posts.

JaneFW said:

I'm so tired of being told that everyone who doesn't spank views it as child abuse. See, that's MY posts being glossed over. I have been told that I want to ban spanking, that I verbally abuse my children - based upon absolutely nothing, btw, and that I think that all spanking is abuse. So you want to talk about glossed over?

But as to whether it should be discussed further, that's up to the OP. If she wants to close the thread, she can.

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I didn't say I was taking about your posts, Jane...

CrystalBrooke said:

Maybe there's a part of her post that you can read and I can't, but I don't see where she pointed out any specific posters. If you never said that all spanking is abuse then she isn't talking about you is she? No need to get defensive if no one pointed YOU out.

I don't think this thread is going to gain any more constructive posts.

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If you don't want to post here any more, don't post, but unless the thread gets closed, I will continue to post.

Niffer said:

I didn't say I was taking about your posts, Jane...

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But that doesn't stop me from responding, right? What I am responding to as much as anything is people who haven't been much involved saying that the discussion is over. What is that about? Why does anyone else get to make that call? It's for the OP surely, nobody else?

JaneFW said:

But that doesn't stop me from responding, right? What I am responding to as much as anything is people who haven't been much involved saying that the discussion is over. What is that about? Why does anyone else get to make that call? It's for the OP surely, nobody else?

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Jane, I didn't say anything about you not responding any more. If you want to keep the discussion going, then do it by all means.
I'm talking about your post that you took as a personal offense when there was none.
I was talking about non-specific posts, so as to intentionally avoid that.

No one is saying you can't respond..just maybe don't take it so personally.

-Niffer

JRSut1000 said:

So I was just looking up Scriptures that have nothing to do with this topic at all, and I came across this: "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." Can we talk about this?

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IMO....this is a great video that relates to what you're bringing up.

"Fear of Punishment" Interview with Danny Silk - YouTube

Niffer said:

Jane, I didn't say anything about you not responding any more. If you want to keep the discussion going, then do it by all means.
I'm talking about your post that you took as a personal offense when there was none.
I was talking about non-specific posts, so as to intentionally avoid that.

No one is saying you can't respond..just maybe don't take it so personally.

-Niffer

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I'm not offended, defensive or taking it personally. I just am one of the people who is discussing this, so surely the suggestion to stop posting is also addressed to me? That would be my first, logical thought. Also, anything addressed to people who don't spank is surely also addressed to me?

I'm not angry nor defensive. I'm just answering.

Perhaps this proves the point that women are easily perceived to be angry or defensive, when in fact they are just responding absolutely evenly and without an angry thought or emotion. No anger. None. Still love you just as much today Niffer as I did yesterday.

JaneFW said:

I'm not offended, defensive or taking it personally. I just am one of the people who is discussing this, so surely the suggestion to stop posting is also addressed to me? That would be my first, logical thought. Also, anything addressed to people who don't spank is surely also addressed to me?

I'm not angry nor defensive. I'm just answering.

Perhaps this proves the point that women are easily perceived to be angry or defensive, when in fact they are just responding absolutely evenly and without an angry thought or emotion. No anger. None. Still love you just as much today Niffer as I did yesterday.

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Lol!
You're right, I did take it as you being defensive, and felt a little personally attacked.
I should've made my first post more clear, by saying that "I" would stop posting, rather than blanketing the entire thread.
I'm glad you're not angry - as that wasn't my intention at all.
But I think I am going to step back from this one - clearly it 'gets my goat' too much.

Peace,
-Niffer

Niffer said:

Lol!
You're right, I did take it as you being defensive, and felt a little personally attacked.
I should've made my first post more clear, by saying that "I" would stop posting, rather than blanketing the entire thread.
I'm glad you're not angry - as that wasn't my intention at all.
But I think I am going to step back from this one - clearly it 'gets my goat' too much.

Peace,
-Niffer

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You're one in a million, Niffer.

JaneFW said:

Only one person has said that spanking is abuse. Not me.

And .. you don't have any children, just fyi.

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I know. I was too lazy to type "future children".

JaneFW said:

Why does "love" get quotes and a "lol".

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Because I was talking about fake love and false or limited perceptions of what love is or has to be.