The annual "Christmas is Pagan" preemption thread.
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yeshuasavedme
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His "times and seasons", but not the year they begin.
He has to fulfill the Fall Feasts, and Tabernacles is the only one which will remain to be completely and totally fulfilled at the end of the millennial reign, so by the Time His kingdom is set up, Yom Kippur will have been fulfilled for all Israel, and will be done no more "like that" as Jeremiah says, but as Ezekiel and Jeremiah say, they will be kept as Memorials of joy for what He has done, but none will be kept as fast days. ..But we know it will be done in the third temple, for the Tribulation. So, when the two witnesses are raptured to heaven after being resurrected, there will be three and a half years on a Calendar of days such as Enoch revealed and Jubilees kept, remaining, until Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth for the thousand year Sabbath Millennium.
The signs of the Feasts will not begin until the Church is raptured and the Two Witnesses begin their three and a half year ministry in the streets of Jerusalem, so there is no way to make a claim for a year of His return, and the Times and Seasons will begin as the signs only after the Rapture. The Church has no sign but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. All the signs belong to the namesake nation, and they are on a "stop" until the Church is removed the midst of the earth, as far as counting down the days go.
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yeshuasavedme
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So sorry -I was thinking of the Tent in the wilderness as the first, though it is not called the first, and Solomon's as the second, though it is called the first; but I was not really thinking at all, as I was in a hurry and had to leave and go to town....and I sometimes make mistakes like that and attribute them to my age. At least that's what I tell my kids
The Glory never, ever, returned to the second temple, but did come in a foretaste of that Glory to come, on Pentecost, to the Church -and since then, new added stones can also receive the "foretaste/downpayment" of that Glory which is to come.
BTW: that Glory is what departs with the Church, and will not be dwelling in a temple on earth for the seven years, but will return in the Person of Christ, as Ezekiel shows, in chapter 44, to the Millennial temple, which is still a type of God's work and plan, yet to come.
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Would make for an interesting study me thinksSo sorry -I was thinking of the Tent in the wilderness as the first, though it is not called the first, and Solomon's as the second, though it is called the first; but I was not really thinking at all, as I was in a hurry and had to leave and go to town....and I sometimes make mistakes like that and attribute them to my age. At least that's what I tell my kids
The Glory never, ever, returned to the second temple, but did come in a foretaste of that Glory to come, on Pentecost, to the Church -and since then, new added stones can also receive the "foretaste/downpayment" of that Glory which is to come.
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Reve 15:8 And is being replete the Sanctuary/naoV <3485> of smoke out of the Glory of the God and out of the power of Him.
And no one was *able to be entering into the Sanctuary/naon <3485> until should be being finished the seven blows of the seven Messengers.
Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.
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The dispute is not over whether Haggai is messianic, the dispute is over how you're reading the dates. Haggai 2 is basically following the formula: "On dd/mm, God told me this is going to happen." You're changing that to "God told me this is going to happen on dd/mm." Those dates are the actual month and date in 520 when the prophecies were given, not the date the prophecies were fulfilled.
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yeshuasavedme
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You are not "considering" -taking to heart- what he said, yet.
He said From "this" day that the foundation of YHWH'S Temple was [prophetically, will be], laid, I will bless, and the blessing is, in the wording used, "backwards and forwards". The temple to consider -take it to heart- that will have more glory than the first is not the one laid when Haggai spoke, for that never happened, but the one he is "seeing" by the eyes of understanding, and telling of. The Foundation Stone is Christ incarnated in flesh, and the date of His incarnation is on the 24th day of the ninth month, many years after Haggai spoke an oracle about the second Temple which is human being flesh, made for the Glory.
Hag 2:18 Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth [month, even] from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider [it]. Hag 2:19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth:from this day will I bless [you].
The Oracle of the matter was that the Stone for the second temple not made with hands would be laid as the day of blessing -backwards and forwards- on the 24th day of the ninth month. That is speaking of the oracle of the future incarnation.
"Consider".
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ptomwebster
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Epiphoskei,
Luke will tell you when Christ was conceived and born if you will read it with just a little understanding. Christ was conceived on December 25th and He was born on September 29th.
Luke will tell you when Christ was conceived and born if you will read it with just a little understanding. Christ was conceived on December 25th and He was born on September 29th.
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This destroys the plain meaning of the text.
In Haggai, the Jews had yet not built the physical second temple, and were having their agriculture cursed by God for it. Until the temple was built, "[God] struck all the work of [their] hands with blight, mildew, and hail." However, from this day, the 22nd of the 9th month of 520 B.C., this curse ended and God began blessing.
If you want to take this as typologically prophetic, that's one thing. But you're taking details of the primary interpretation, of the prophecy given to the Jews of 520 about their agricultural blight, and making them components of the typology. That's not valid exegesis.
Additionally, you have the 24th of the 9th month in apposition to the day the temple foundation stone was lain. Haggai, however, tells us that the foundation stone was lain on the 24th of the sixth month. Hence, the verse is better translated "From this day on, from this twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, give careful thought to the day when the foundation of the LORDs temple was laid [i.e., three months earlier, not today]." Now, typology or not, if the foundation of the temple and 9/24 can't be in apposition in the primary sense, they can't be in apposition in the typological sense. Therefore, no, the text does not say anything about a temple being founded on 9/24. The only foundation date referenced in Haggai is 6/24, as it says in 1:15.
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I'm sorry, but another person's idiosyncratic hermeneutic has to earn my belief. The Bible can be made to say just about anything if one uncritically adopts other peoples "understanding."
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stonewalker
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The tradition of Christmas...Got it
The Christmas tree story.
An early story, from the first half of the 700s, relates how the British missionary monk St. Boniface was preaching a sermon on the birth of Christ to a tribe of Germanic Druids.
To convince the idolaters that the oak tree was not sacred, the so-called "Apostle of Germany" felled a tree on the spot. Toppling, it crushed every shrub in its path except for a small fir sapling.
Legend has it that Boniface, attempted to win converts, interpreting the fir's survival as a miracle, concluding, "Let this be called the tree of the Christ Child."
History and legend tells that Germany has ever since celebrated by planting fir trees.
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stonewalker
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The tradition of Christmas...Got it
The Christmas tree story.
An early story, from the first half of the 700s, relates how the British missionary monk St. Boniface was preaching a sermon on the birth of Christ to a tribe of Germanic Druids.
To convince the idolaters that the oak tree was not sacred, the so-called "Apostle of Germany" felled a tree on the spot. Toppling, it crushed every shrub in its path except for a small fir sapling.
Legend has it that Boniface, attempted to win converts, interpreting the fir's survival as a miracle, concluding, "Let this be called the tree of the Christ Child."
History and legend tells that Germany has ever since celebrated by planting fir trees.
As an after thought, the Bible mentions the use of green trees as pagan symbols of ancient worship and forbids their use in the worship of God.
(Deuteronomy 16:21; Jeremiah 17:2)
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Originally Posted by stonewalkerThe tradition of Christmas...Got it
The Christmas tree story.
An early story, from the first half of the 700s, relates how the British missionary monk St. Boniface was preaching a sermon on the birth of Christ to a tribe of Germanic Druids.
To convince the idolaters that the oak tree was not sacred, the so-called "Apostle of Germany" felled a tree on the spot. Toppling, it crushed every shrub in its path except for a small fir sapling.
Legend has it that Boniface, attempted to win converts, interpreting the fir's survival as a miracle, concluding, "Let this be called the tree of the Christ Child."
History and legend tells that Germany has ever since celebrated by planting fir trees
Interesting
Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version
KJV) Luke 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
KJV) Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
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Pilgrimer
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I think there is more to it than that. What Paul was talking about was not simply the Temple being removed, but the whole Old Covenant earthly "kingdom" being removed so that the New Covenant heavenly "kingdom" might remain.
"And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace ..." Hebrews 12:28
This was the context of Haggai 2, that the Lord would "shake" the heavens and the earth, so that the Old Covenant kingdom might be removed, which was speaking of God's earthly kingdom, which was Israel. That "kingdom" was "removed" because the heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God, which cannot be shaken or moved, had come, signified by the veil in the Temple being rent showing that the way into the presence of God had been opened.
This "shaking" of the earthly Kingdom of David and it being removed is graphically foretold in a number of other prophecies you are probably familiar with. The "fig tree" being "shaken by a mighty wind," is another illusion to this removing of the Jewish commonwealth after the coming of the Kingdom of God. That "mighty wind" was a reference to the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, which is described on the Day of Pentecost: "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues of fire ..." Acts 2:2-3
So this prophecy of Haggai, which Paul quotes in Hebrews, spoke not just of the earthly Temple being shaken and being removed, but it was speaking in a broader context of the entire Kingdom of Israel being shaken and removed, while the Kingdom of God, which can never be shaken, would remain, forever.
Standing Up, an interesting sidenote, the name of the second goat offered on the day of Atonement, "for Azazel," literally means "for removing." The first goat, the one "for Jehovah," represented Christ, because that goat was sacrificed in the Temple and it's blood was carried into the Holiest and sprinkled on the Mercy Seat and on all the furnishing and vessels of the Temple and then finally on the people to cleanse them of sin. That goat represented the Jews who believed in Jesus and their sins were atoned by the sprinkling of his blood. But the other goat, the one "for Azazel," (for removing) represented those Jews who refused the Gospel, refused the atoning blood of Jesus. Their sins rested on their own heads, and like that generation that did not have faith and their carcases fell in the wilderness and they never entered the promised land, the Jews who refused the Gospel bore their sins upon their own heads and they were "removed," and they perished "in the wilderness" without ever entering God's Kingdom.
But that is what Paul was referring to in Hebrews 12, the old earthly kingdom, which was a type and a shadow, having been fulfilled it was removed and the new heavenly kingdom, which is eternal and can never be moved, remains.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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Pilgrimer
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If Jesus Christ has not fulfilled the Day of Atonement, legally and fully, then there is no atonement, we are still dead in our sins.
When the bottom line is your interpretation of prophecy contradicts the most fundamental tenets of the Gospel, there is no clearer warning to turn back and find the right path, the path that leads back to God, the only true path, the way of the Cross.
In faith believing in the atonement of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ as a fully accomplished work,
Pilgrimer
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Standing Up
On and on
I'd agree with you here, disagreeing with those who believe all the fall feasts are yet to be. Only Trumpets remains.
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yeshuasavedme
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All are not saved, and each must come to the lifted up from the earth Savior, individually and alone, for no one gets in without the confession of Christ as their Savior [who has come to the age of accountability -all who have not are covered by the blood and belong to Christ should they die before accountability]
Jesus died once for all, but each soul has to come to the Atonement and lay their sins by confession, on the Lamb that was slain -Isaiah 53.
For those who have and are doing that, John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah -and he was not the Elijah who is in heaven and who is to come, and the Atonement was performed for them at Passover all in one fell swoop.
For those who must wait for The Elijah to come [Israel after the Church is removed from the midst]; they must come to the mourning of Yom Kippur, by themselves, each and individually -and that is what the Scriptures teach they will do. They will do that at the end of the tribulation, when Christ is revealed to Them as Their Messiah who was wounded in the house of his friends.
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yeshuasavedme
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At the end of the tribulation:
Then, the coming into the days of repentance -Yom Kippur- for the nation of Israel -those who remain alive after their judgment at Mt Sinai, at the end of the tribulation, as Ezekiel records in chapter 20:33-44, who enter the promised land [after being gathered to be judged]:
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I am convinced that 'Christmas' is either an error of ignorance or that it is a synchronized winter solstice rooted in paganism.
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