Seattle protester miscarries, blames cops who pepper sprayed her

jsn112 said:

These people are not innocent. They decide to take on the authorities.

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Who are "these people"? The mother and her fetus? Don't be absurd.

jsn112 said:

And this "mother" decided to put her baby in jeopardy.

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Read articles before you comment, it will help you avoid looking silly

"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," she says. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'"

jsn112 said:

If anything, this mother is guilty of murdering her baby.

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That doesn't even make sense, she did nothing illegal and was not the one who caused physical injury and miscarriage. This is patently absurd and an utterly transparant attempt to protect some illusion of the police as virtuous paragons.

Did you even think through the implications of this statement? I really don't think you people understand how insane this would be if we accepted it.

This is patently absurd and an utterly transparant attempt to protect some illusion of the police

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I think that's a common occurrence too. It's hard to look at the issue from an unbiased perspective. "Cop" is almost an archetypal symbol that invokes automatic prejudices (either positive or negative) and emotions in people*. The "Authority Figure". On top of that if you are conservative you don't want to appear to be standing up for occupy wall street so it's easier to ignore gross acts of violence or justify them.

* With me being an Anarchist you can probably guess what mine are lol

F American police. The protests were peaceful.

I read interesting article about this in my local paper today apparently the woman who was this protesters foster mom for a over decade thinks she is probably faking and has been such a drama queen in the past she won't believe her without some medical records to back it up.

The woman in question hasn't presented any medical evidence about pregnancy yet but after seeing the pictures it's really hard to say that she was faking:
http://i.imgur.com/0S7rQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L7gjn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8InA7.jpg
unless the medical staff was in on the faking, of course.

The girl is homeless now so it's hard to take her foster mom saying she's a "drama queen" at face value as well. Hopefully the medical records will emerge in time.

Edit: "UPDATE on Nov. 22 at 4:18 PM: Acting on an anonymous tip, we heard that Seattle police found Fox in a house six nearly nine weeks ago. According to a police report in which the names have been redacted, a suspect who appears to have a three-letter last name "said she is three months pregnant... and began crying when [a suspect] was arrested. [The person with a three-letter last name] began holding her stomach and screaming that it hurt."

They aren't sure if the name even has three letters, and there are more than one person with a three letter name, but anyway there's something. This being true would mean there's no way she could be three months pregnant now.

My irony meter is going to explode from the responses I received.

Yep, until then I'm going to maintain some skepticism.

Is abortion by cop an acceptable form of abortion ?

PeterNY said:

The woman in question hasn't presented any medical evidence about pregnancy yet but after seeing the pictures it's really hard to say that she was faking:
http://i.imgur.com/0S7rQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L7gjn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8InA7.jpg
unless the medical staff was in on the faking, of course.

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Those pictures don't scream pregnant to me.

Cute Tink said:

Those pictures don't scream pregnant to me.

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First trimester, it wouldn't be all that noticeable. She was 3 months pregnant, not 9. Its not like she's going to look like a blimp. The images are too low quality to tell either way.

That was my point. They don't prove that she isn't pregnant, but they don't show that she is either.

I have been around plenty of pregnant women in my life. I do realize what she should look like at 3 months.

Cute Tink said:

That was my point. They don't prove that she isn't pregnant, but they don't show that she is either.

I have been around plenty of pregnant women in my life. I do realize what she should look like at 3 months.

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Oh, ok then.

While the actuality of her pregnancy definitely has real world implications, for the purposes of this discussion I think it is irrelevant when placed in the context of the responses a lot of anti-Occupy people are posting.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that she really was pregnant and really did miscarry. Being kicked probably had a lot more to do with it than being pepper sprayed, but I can see how a person's reaction to such a painful experience could effect pregnancy in the same way that stress can.

So what do we have?

People saying that she deserved it. People saying that she is responsible for being kicked and sprayed by another human being. People saying that being pregnant means you shouldn't be able to exercise your constitutionally protected right to peacefully assemble. People saying that if you do exercise your right to peaceful assembly, you should expect to be beaten and hurt by representatives of the very government that was supposed to guarantee those rights in the first place.

I'm not on the side of the Occupy protesters--I'm neutral to this whole thing until one side can figure out what they actually stand for--but I support their right to have their grievances heard and hold peaceful protests. I'll say this though: some of the things stated in this thread are the most disgusting things I've ever read on the internet. Thanks for whittling another chip off my faith in humanity.

mpok1519 said:

Invoking the constitutional right of peaceful assembly puts our citizens at risk from police brutality?

Then, how is that a right?

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I know this still escapes you, and you've ignored it on our conversations, but there's a difference between a legal demonstration and an illegal one.

Sorry, but those crying "constitutional right" obviously have no idea what they're talking about.

IF--and that's a big "if"--this story is true, it is a wretched shame. A horrible loss of life. But those who excuse her irresponsibility for putting her baby's life in danger shine a bright light on the political Left's decaying sense of morality and responsibility. However, to this date, she still hasn't produced any proof to validate her story.

I know this still escapes you, and you've ignored it on our conversations, but there's a difference between a legal demonstration and an illegal one.

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Do you have evidence supporting the assertion that the protest was illegal? At what point did it become illegal? Did she know ahead of time that the protest would become "illegal"? Was it her fault it became "illegal"? Do people at "illegal" protests loose all legitimate protection from being assaulted? Is it a basic "you broke the law so you can be assaulted" theory your using? Did you ever think that assault may be a worse crime than protesting when someone tells you you shouldn't be? Maybe cops should kill people who jay walk?

Is it morally acceptable to assault someone if they haven't tried to attack you? Do cops get a special pass because they have a badge?

Ishraqiyun said:

Do you have evidence supporting the assertion that the protest was illegal? At what point did it become illegal? <snip>

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Pregnant woman pepper sprayed at Occupy Seattle - CBS News

To quote:

Seattle police said plenty of verbal warnings were given to demonstrators attempting to block intersections and streets during rush hour.

"Pepper spray was deployed only against subjects who were either refusing a lawful order to disperse or engaging in assaultive behavior toward officers," Kappel wrote on the department's blog.

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Emphasis Mine.

Ten questions? Really? Considering how I've seen you engage in debate, I would like a little reassurance that you're willing to play by your own rules. Therefore, answer me these ten questions and I'll answer yours:

Do you believe that she was a responsible mother by putting her unborn baby in the middle of an unruly crowd that was engaging the police in an assaultive behavior? Do you admit that there are no documents from the hospital asserting her claim that have been provided? Do the police not have a right to uphold the law? Do the police not have the duty to protect the rights of those who aren't protesting? How, exactly, are the police to enforce the law against unruly crowds that will not cooperate? Is your favorite color blue? Should Casa Bonita make a return to Arkansas? How do you feel about South Park lampooning the Left? Is Pluto a planet or not in your opinion? Did I forget to pay my water bill?

jameseb said:

I know this still escapes you, and you've ignored it on our conversations, but there's a difference between a legal demonstration and an illegal one.

Sorry, but those crying "constitutional right" obviously have no idea what they're talking about.

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Because if you protest how and where the government wants you to then the protest will be effective?

IF--and that's a big "if"--this story is true, it is a wretched shame. A horrible loss of life. But those who excuse her irresponsibility for putting her baby's life in danger shine a bright light on the political Left's decaying sense of morality and responsibility. However, to this date, she still hasn't produced any proof to validate her story.

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I guess you don't assume your going to be kicked and pepper sprayed by the police when your peacefully protesting. Isn't it strange that it isn't the protesters but the police who did her harm? She would be ok if they didn't come in guns blazing. It doesn't matter if you are left or right.

I don't know if she was pregnant or not, but it doesn't matter. The violence in general is bad.

So a pro choice woman miscarriages due to negligence and suddenly it's murder?

If she was not pro choice then I miss spoke. But the odds are greater she was pro choice.

3rdHeaven said:

So a pro choice woman miscarriages due to negligence and suddenly it's murder?

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Getting kicked in the stomach is negligence on the woman's part?

3rdHeaven said:

If she was not pro choice then I miss spoke. But the odds are greater she was pro choice.

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Pro-choice women are not allowed to get pregnant and carry to term?

3rdHeaven said:

So a pro choice woman miscarriages due to negligence and suddenly it's murder?

If she was not pro choice then I miss spoke. But the odds are greater she was pro choice.

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Why the odds are greater that she is (not was, she isn't dead) pro-choice? She's homeless, was in the occupy camp because they provided food and place to stay.

Also, so what if she was a pro-choice person? I really hope this thread won't be sidetracked, but pro-choice means that you believe that woman has a right to decide about her body. This particular one chose to have a baby. Even IF she would have wanted an abortion (She didn't, and she has said so) does that mean that anyone is allowed to beat her up so she miscarries?

Does that also mean that anyone should be allowed to kill you if you're for death penalty? Or is this something that applies only to pro-choice women?