Originally posted by T-roi
Hello everyone. This is my first actual post but I have been surfing around for a while just enjoying the different topics and am (to be honest) a little overwhelmed by what I have read. I have spent that last 10 years trying to excite my friends about the bible and encourage theological discussions just to sharpen each other and noone seems interested, almost like they don't care. Then I find this place... WOW! I plan on "gleaning" as much from you all as you will let me (Ruth 2:2) Hope you don't mind
Eph writes...
I would encourage you to be VERY careful "gleaning" anything around here on this forum...IT is loaded up with many wrong minded...wrong thinking..wrongly taught people...Who although they have a smattering of biblical teaching....stumble along in the dark on most subjects..!
Not to mention the very many NON Christians who post their own various dribble on Bible subjects that they don't even Faith themselves.... but always seem to have an opinion on none the less....!
10 people on this forum will give you 17 different answers..
T roi asks..
My question is this. A friend of mine and I are doing a small study on Matthew. He does not have a deep understanding of scripture so we are just slowly hitting the main ideas. While in chapter 4 the question of who Satan really is came up. I began listing some verses that I knew and Isaiah 14:12-18 (or so) was one of my first. I had been told and/or was under the impression that Lucifer in verse 12, though directly referring to the king of Babylon (v. 4), also applied to Satan. I thought that the verse,
"You said in your heart, 'I will ascend into heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God;"
was just as applicable to Satan as it was to this King. I was taught the whole section (12-18 or so) applied to him. Yet while I was doing my study I noticed that in my bible dictionary this verse wasn't even listed as a reference. Confused, I looked it up in a different dictionary that I have on my computer and then in a commentary. None of them were mentioning Isa. 14. Then I read in the notes in my bible that the name, "Lucifer", was translated as such in the Latin Vulgate and the original phrase was "morning star". I looked up lucifer in a concordance and found that Isa 14:12 is the ONLY location in the bible that it is found (KJV). The phrase "morning star" is only used 3 more times in the NIV (twice in KJV), once in 2 Pet 1:19, and twice in Revelation (2:28, 22:16), none of them referring to Satan.
Eph replies...
The words used are "son of the morning"...not "morning star"..Morning star is the Latin Volgate translation of the word Lucifer...but in Hebrew the word only means "bright one"..or light bearer...Please turn to EZK 28:12:19.. for more on Lucifer.....His offical duties were to lead the worship service in song.."he led the choir"...he was perfect..and verse 17 says he was "lifted up" actually he became proud or high minded of his own beauty..and his wisdom ( his right thinking ) was corrupted because of his own "brightness"...or his own splendor...!
He was the light bearer..not the light itself...!
Jesus in REV 22:16...claims to BE the "bright morning star"...Lucifer was called "son of the morning"..the Latin Trans of that word is the mix up...!
T roi asks.
So can we "confidently" say this passage is referring to satan as well as to the King of Babylon? I am aware of a similar situation in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and in that example it (in my opinion) must be someone other than the King of Tyre.
"you were in Eden, the garden of God... you were annointed as a guardian cherub" etc.
I just wanted to get some feed back and see what anyone else thought. Thanks for your help..
Eph replies...
Yes..at the start of this chapter God is speaking to the PRINCE of Tyre...but then midway...turns his attention to the "King"...the real power behind the Prince...Now the Prince was probably the actual King in real life..but compared to the spiritual power that really ruled behind the scenes..he was just a Prince...! Kinda like Hitler ...he wasn't the REAL power behind all the evilness...!
The King was possessed by Satan..
Hello everyone. This is my first actual post but I have been surfing around for a while just enjoying the different topics and am (to be honest) a little overwhelmed by what I have read. I have spent that last 10 years trying to excite my friends about the bible and encourage theological discussions just to sharpen each other and noone seems interested, almost like they don't care. Then I find this place... WOW! I plan on "gleaning" as much from you all as you will let me (Ruth 2:2) Hope you don't mind
Eph writes...
I would encourage you to be VERY careful "gleaning" anything around here on this forum...IT is loaded up with many wrong minded...wrong thinking..wrongly taught people...Who although they have a smattering of biblical teaching....stumble along in the dark on most subjects..!
Not to mention the very many NON Christians who post their own various dribble on Bible subjects that they don't even Faith themselves.... but always seem to have an opinion on none the less....!
10 people on this forum will give you 17 different answers..
T roi asks..
My question is this. A friend of mine and I are doing a small study on Matthew. He does not have a deep understanding of scripture so we are just slowly hitting the main ideas. While in chapter 4 the question of who Satan really is came up. I began listing some verses that I knew and Isaiah 14:12-18 (or so) was one of my first. I had been told and/or was under the impression that Lucifer in verse 12, though directly referring to the king of Babylon (v. 4), also applied to Satan. I thought that the verse,
"You said in your heart, 'I will ascend into heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God;"
was just as applicable to Satan as it was to this King. I was taught the whole section (12-18 or so) applied to him. Yet while I was doing my study I noticed that in my bible dictionary this verse wasn't even listed as a reference. Confused, I looked it up in a different dictionary that I have on my computer and then in a commentary. None of them were mentioning Isa. 14. Then I read in the notes in my bible that the name, "Lucifer", was translated as such in the Latin Vulgate and the original phrase was "morning star". I looked up lucifer in a concordance and found that Isa 14:12 is the ONLY location in the bible that it is found (KJV). The phrase "morning star" is only used 3 more times in the NIV (twice in KJV), once in 2 Pet 1:19, and twice in Revelation (2:28, 22:16), none of them referring to Satan.
Eph replies...
The words used are "son of the morning"...not "morning star"..Morning star is the Latin Volgate translation of the word Lucifer...but in Hebrew the word only means "bright one"..or light bearer...Please turn to EZK 28:12:19.. for more on Lucifer.....His offical duties were to lead the worship service in song.."he led the choir"...he was perfect..and verse 17 says he was "lifted up" actually he became proud or high minded of his own beauty..and his wisdom ( his right thinking ) was corrupted because of his own "brightness"...or his own splendor...!
He was the light bearer..not the light itself...!
Jesus in REV 22:16...claims to BE the "bright morning star"...Lucifer was called "son of the morning"..the Latin Trans of that word is the mix up...!
T roi asks.
So can we "confidently" say this passage is referring to satan as well as to the King of Babylon? I am aware of a similar situation in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and in that example it (in my opinion) must be someone other than the King of Tyre.
"you were in Eden, the garden of God... you were annointed as a guardian cherub" etc.
I just wanted to get some feed back and see what anyone else thought. Thanks for your help..
Eph replies...
Yes..at the start of this chapter God is speaking to the PRINCE of Tyre...but then midway...turns his attention to the "King"...the real power behind the Prince...Now the Prince was probably the actual King in real life..but compared to the spiritual power that really ruled behind the scenes..he was just a Prince...! Kinda like Hitler ...he wasn't the REAL power behind all the evilness...!
The King was possessed by Satan..
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