Isaiah 14 and the "Morning Star"

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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by T-roi
Hello everyone. This is my first actual post but I have been surfing around for a while just enjoying the different topics and am (to be honest) a little overwhelmed by what I have read. I have spent that last 10 years trying to excite my friends about the bible and encourage theological discussions just to sharpen each other and noone seems interested, almost like they don't care. Then I find this place... WOW! I plan on "gleaning" as much from you all as you will let me (Ruth 2:2) Hope you don't mind

Eph writes...

I would encourage you to be VERY careful "gleaning" anything around here on this forum...IT is loaded up with many wrong minded...wrong thinking..wrongly taught people...Who although they have a smattering of biblical teaching....stumble along in the dark on most subjects..!
Not to mention the very many NON Christians who post their own various dribble on Bible subjects that they don't even Faith themselves.... but always seem to have an opinion on none the less....!

10 people on this forum will give you 17 different answers..

T roi asks..
My question is this. A friend of mine and I are doing a small study on Matthew. He does not have a deep understanding of scripture so we are just slowly hitting the main ideas. While in chapter 4 the question of who Satan really is came up. I began listing some verses that I knew and Isaiah 14:12-18 (or so) was one of my first. I had been told and/or was under the impression that Lucifer in verse 12, though directly referring to the king of Babylon (v. 4), also applied to Satan. I thought that the verse,
"You said in your heart, 'I will ascend into heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God;"
was just as applicable to Satan as it was to this King. I was taught the whole section (12-18 or so) applied to him. Yet while I was doing my study I noticed that in my bible dictionary this verse wasn't even listed as a reference. Confused, I looked it up in a different dictionary that I have on my computer and then in a commentary. None of them were mentioning Isa. 14. Then I read in the notes in my bible that the name, "Lucifer", was translated as such in the Latin Vulgate and the original phrase was "morning star". I looked up lucifer in a concordance and found that Isa 14:12 is the ONLY location in the bible that it is found (KJV). The phrase "morning star" is only used 3 more times in the NIV (twice in KJV), once in 2 Pet 1:19, and twice in Revelation (2:28, 22:16), none of them referring to Satan.


Eph replies...

The words used are "son of the morning"...not "morning star"..Morning star is the Latin Volgate translation of the word Lucifer...but in Hebrew the word only means "bright one"..or light bearer...Please turn to EZK 28:12:19.. for more on Lucifer.....His offical duties were to lead the worship service in song.."he led the choir"...he was perfect..and verse 17 says he was "lifted up" actually he became proud or high minded of his own beauty..and his wisdom ( his right thinking ) was corrupted because of his own "brightness"...or his own splendor...!

He was the light bearer..not the light itself...!

Jesus in REV 22:16...claims to BE the "bright morning star"...Lucifer was called "son of the morning"..the Latin Trans of that word is the mix up...!

T roi asks.
So can we "confidently" say this passage is referring to satan as well as to the King of Babylon? I am aware of a similar situation in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and in that example it (in my opinion) must be someone other than the King of Tyre.
"you were in Eden, the garden of God... you were annointed as a guardian cherub" etc.

I just wanted to get some feed back and see what anyone else thought. Thanks for your help..


Eph replies...

Yes..at the start of this chapter God is speaking to the PRINCE of Tyre...but then midway...turns his attention to the "King"...the real power behind the Prince...Now the Prince was probably the actual King in real life..but compared to the spiritual power that really ruled behind the scenes..he was just a Prince...! Kinda like Hitler ...he wasn't the REAL power behind all the evilness...!

The King was possessed by Satan..
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by Wonder [/i]
Isa 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 .. In my opinion does not speak of Satan.
Satan is referred to by the Messiah, Jesus, as a liar and murderer from the beginning. Unlike the beginnings of Lucifer.
Make it a good one and stay in Him.


Eph writes...

Lucifer and Satan are the same being...! Prior to his rebellion his name was Lucifer...after he rebelled...his name was Satan...!

There was a time when the "morning stars" sang together AND all the "sons of God" shouted for joy....JOB 38:7

Morning Stars (plural)...is God the Father God the Son ( Jesus )..and God the Holy Spirit...( at least as far as I can tell )..!

The sons of God...is speaking of ALL the angels prior to Lucifer's rebellion..

Because in Job 1:6..we see there was also a time ( after the other one because man is now on the planet )..when the "sons of God came to present themselves AND SATAN came also...Satan by this time had fallen and was already under his new name....unlike the time mentioned in Job 38...!

There was a time when HE ( Satan )...was a good guy...way back in Eden he was the "anointed chereb that coverth"..he was on the "holy MT. of God as a good guy...! EZK 28:14:15

Then he "fell"...and thats when we finally meet up with him in Gen 3...after his fall...!

(( this all ties in with Y we can't place a date on the age of the planet...We know God took 7 days to RECREATE the earth and rest from doing it...BUT Gen 1:2 says there was ALREADY water on the planet...Water is a compound mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen..NO record of God creating those eliments is given..Because they already were existing there in GEN 1:1 and he didn't have to make them again...))

"YEC"..( young earth creationists )..for example...take a "head in the sand" approach to all that info...You might as well be talking to a wall when speaking on this because their FAITH is based on a Southern Baptist type mentality of "IF you don't think like me...YOUR evil and decieved by the devil"..! Then they can feel good about avoiding you or the information you have...!

Yet to be that way shows how little they DO know...of what God actually does say on all this...

But again your better off not going there with em....just tell em "Jesus loves me this I know 'cause the Bible tells me so"..

THAT they can understand...because it takes no time...or real indepth hard study...!
 
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JesusServant

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Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
Eph writes...

I would encourage you to be VERY careful "gleaning" anything around here on this forum...IT is loaded up with many wrong minded...wrong thinking..wrongly taught people...Who although they have a smattering of biblical teaching....stumble along in the dark on most subjects..!
Not to mention the very many NON Christians who post their own various dribble on Bible subjects that they don't even Faith themselves.... but always seem to have an opinion on none the less....! 

[/B]

Yes!  Only listen to Ephraim 777, he is the only one on Christian Forums that knows anything, the rest of us are poor, unintelligent, spirit-less slobs that only heard about faith from our second grade school teacher and profess it as a farce for fun in spare time.

:rolleyes:
 
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JesusServant

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Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
:(Hi forum,
I know that it takes time to mature. And also we 'can' mature in the wrong direction! :cry:

So let me just post an Inspired verse for 'myself', or anyone else that feels that we know it all, perhaps??

1 John 4:6 says: (with emphasis)
"We are of God: [he that is of God heareth us]; he that [is not of God, heareth not us]. Hereby [know we] the Spirit of Truth, and the 's'pirit of error" :clap:
---P/N/B/

Well that's great, I ask a question and truly wanted scripture to prove what you say, that satan was the first born of all creation, and you resort to putting me down.

You are saying because I need scripture to back up what you are saying that I am immature and cannot understand you because I don't hear God and the Spirit of Truth.  Real nice.  You and ephraim777 would probably have a great time putting down us immature stupid christians, you should get together sometime.

For anyone else that actually cares to add to the discussion instead of resorting to slams and attacks, please feel free to jump in any time and I apologize for the Christians here that just want to fight, argue and misjudge others.

What bothers me is that a new poster starts a thread topic and is going to see this. :(
 
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JesusServant

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Originally posted by T-roi
I had a nice post typed up and ready to submit but I did something wrong, got an error message, and then it was gone. The whole thing! So I'm going to try this again...

OK, we seem to have two new thoughts going here.

1. Jesus (according to JesusServant) was the first of creation.

2. Satan (according to PNB) was the first of creation. (I can't find your quote PNB so correct me if I'm wrong).

Well, I hate to muddy the waters but, truthfully, I can't agree with either completely. As to Jesus being the first of creation this is a very old debate. It is also known as Arianism and was addressed by the church in the first council of Nicea. It was refuted there and laid to rest. Granted, depending on your religios background, the opinion of the catholic church on an issue "settled" over 1500 years ago may not carry much weight so let's go to the bible. The best verse is Jn 1:1. There John, speaking of Jesus, calls him "the word" (logos) and says that "in the beginning...the word was with God and the word was God". Jesus was with God from "the beginning". That leaves no room for his being created. He was always with God. Another good verse is Jn 8:58 where Jesus, summing up a discourse which begun with "I am the light of the world", states "before Abraham was born, I am!" The Jews wanted to stone him for these words because they were extreme blasphemy. Why? Because Jesus was referring back to Ex 3:14 where God gives Moses his name, "ehyeh asher ehyeh" or "I am that I am". This name of God was later to become so revered by the Jews that they would not even say it. It, according to tradition, was only spoken once a year (the Day of Atonement) by the High Priest while he was in the Holy of Holies. Now this wasn't God's intention but it shows how a Jew viewed the name. Jesus, in Jn 8:58, therefore is calling himself nothing short of YahWeh (Jehovah), or simply GOD! This would be a big boast from one who was simply a part of creation but it was not a big boast for Jesus. He is God. (please don't drag me into the trinity though. To be honest, it's simply over my head. Jesus, in my opinion is God. Let me leave it at that) :D

I would guess that you are referring to verses such as Col 1:15, Rom 8:29, and Heb 1:6. It is strange that Christ would be referred to as the "firstborn of creation" if he was not created. This would definitely throw a monkey wrench in my thoughts. My only explanation comes from the context. Col. continues in verse 18,

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the
firstborn from among the deadand again in Rev 1:5,

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the
firstborn from the deadthis term "firstborn" does not refer to his being created but being "born" per se from the tomb and death. He was the first to be raised up from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit though not the last for we will soon follow.

 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.(Rom 8:29)Enough on that. If you disagree JesusServant please share what you have. I would like to hear it.

PNB: as far as Satan being the first of all creation... I have heard that taught and preached since I was a kid but I have never had someone explain where they get that idea clearly enough (or convincingly enough) for me to agree. I'm not saying it is not true, I'm just saying that I do not belive that the bible gives us enough info. to make that claim confidently. If you feel you can please continue and I'll try to keep up (though to be honest your last post PNB has me quite lost. I'll keep at it though). :)

Ps: JesusServant, I do apologize for jumping to conclusions...



but PNB and I were discussing the origins of Satan and Isa 14 which lead into a discussion of whether Satan was created evil or became so, and if he was created evil then did God in essence create evil itself. So when you asked your very brief question...

 

PNB and I both attempted to answer your question in relation to the discussion we were already having. To avoid this, try to give a little more info. in your question and people will be able to focus their comments. I am afraid, after rereading this reply before submitting it, that I may have done it agian. I assumed that you came to your belief that Jesus was the first of creation from the verses that I listed and then tried to address those verses. I never thought that you may have come to that conclusion some other way. If so, again, forgive me and I'll try to stick closer to your comments.

Thank you both for the discussion. Hearing others beliefs challenges me to defend and develop my own better. Let's just remember we're not here to change each other's minds so much as to simply enjoy discussing the Word and cause others to look at something in a new way (we can wrestle with it and [if it is warranted] change our minds later on our own).

yours in Christ,

Nice post.  Great job in posting your views and scripture without putting anyone down or being judgmental.  God bless!
 
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Eph777, thank you for you advice. I have come across a few who obviously didn't know what they were talking about. That is what I meant by glean...

 
To collect with patient and minute labor; to pick out; to obtain. <SPAN class=small><CITE>Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.</CITE></SPAN>

but only a fool turns down good advice and I thank you for yours.

I started this thread with the simple hope of getting some people of different backgrounds and views to share their opinion with me. In doing so I have to either prove them wrong (in my heart, not in a post) or concede that they have a valid point. Please, lets not turn this into something else. I appreciate Eph777's advice and I very seriously doubt it was aimed at anyone in particular. It was just a general warning. If it was aimed at someone I wish you would keep it outside of my threads.

Now, back to business. PNB, if you would be so kind, I would still like to hear your thoughts on Satan being the first of creation. I am still having trouble with parts of your last post so maybe you could clarify some of it for us.

Eph777, thanks again. I hope you will continue to join our discussion.

JesusServant, I'm sorry you felt those comments were directed at you in particular and that you took them personally. That happens in forums however. Can we try to move on?

Ps 133:1 Strive for it!!!!
 
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JesusServant

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Originally posted by T-roi
Eph777, thank you for you advice. I have come across a few who obviously didn't know what they were talking about. That is what I meant by glean...

&nbsp;

but only a fool turns down good advice and I thank you for yours.

I started this thread with the simple hope of getting some people of different backgrounds and views to share their opinion with me. In doing so I have to either prove them wrong (in my heart, not in a post) or concede that they have a valid point. Please, lets not turn this into something else. I appreciate Eph777's advice and I very seriously doubt it was aimed at anyone in particular. It was just a general warning. If it was aimed at someone I wish you would keep it outside of my threads.

Now, back to business. PNB, if you would be so kind, I would still like to hear your thoughts on Satan being the first of creation. I am still having trouble with parts of your last post so maybe you could clarify some of it for us.

Eph777, thanks again. I hope you will continue to join our discussion.

JesusServant, I'm sorry you felt those comments were directed at you in particular and that you took them personally. That happens in forums however. Can we try to move on?

Ps 133:1 Strive for it!!!!

This wasn't the first time ephraim has been condescending and rude or I probably would have let it go.&nbsp; I would show you examples but they were edited by moderaters because of the content.

Heres some more good advice as well.&nbsp; A few of us, like yourself, come here knowing full well they don't "know-it-all" and accept that.&nbsp; They are looking for other viewpoints to consider and more truths to feed on.&nbsp; Others, however, are merely here to cram everything they know down your throat as the ONLY absolute truth and pretty much anything anyone else says about anything is either a lie or they are "mislead".&nbsp; There are so many of these people, I'm about ready to give up on these forums entirely, and that's sad because there are many people here who are Christlike and have a great wealth of knowledge to share, it's just frustrating having to wade through the one's who are not.
 
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Hi again,
First off, 1 John 4:6 is a FACT, not a quoted put down to a personal 'person'. OK? For none of us are very smart, huh? And we are replying to 'posts'! Always leaving names OFF, might be the better way?

Anyway, When Christ comes the SECOND time, He asked 'If' He would find FAITH on earth, right? We do mature at differant stages, do we not? And WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO [HAVE FAITH]?? JUST PLAIN [BELIEVING] CHRIST'S WORD IS FAITH, right?

I understand that CLEAR passages for some, are not clear passages for others.
Yet it seems that Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 are so CLEAR that even we 'babes' could understand them? (no putdowns intended!) Have your children tell you what they ARE SAYING??

OK: 'If' one can get past these verses??? Then TRUST GOD (FAITH) and ask yourself why Matt. 24 is to be repeated history? How about verse 14 which say's, that when the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached into ALL the world, THEN shall the END COME'!?? Did it? NO.

Now, if Paul did not BELIEVE GOD as in the Eccl.'s verses, then HE MUST HAVE BEEN REALLY RATTLED by his INSPIRATION as seen in Rom. 10:18? Notice: It says: "But I say, Have they NOT HEARD? YES VERILY, THEIR SOUND WENT INTO [ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD]." Did Christ come? NO. Why? Because GOD SAID HISTORY WILL BE REPEATED AN [SECOND TIME]! And Paul knew this!

Adam & Eve were TESTED, God said other world's' in Heb. twice stated. Were they ALSO TESTED AS WERE THIS CREATION? GOD SAID YES! 'HE REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST". Yes, it is by FAITH that we BELIEVE GOD!
Do we have FAITH??

Another: I see the Master in Matt. 24:20-21 telling us of a great tribulation to come, & that one is to pray that their flight will not be in the winter or on the Sabbath day. I understand this to be the past history of Israel's slaughter of 70 AD. There are many that teach that this is AGAIN to take place. Where is SCRIPTURE for that one at?? Again, it IS SEEN IN Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15.

In closing this: It is hard to know what QUESTION that you are asking?
It seems to me at least, that the WORD IS CLEAR on ALL history being repeated. EVEN BEFORE ADAM AND EVE. If you are asking for scripture where this is the case? Then, this post might help? ---P/N/B/

PS: In Matt. 10 Christ Commanded in verse 5-6 (for the 27-34 Ad years) for His diciples to go to the LOST SHEEP of the House of Israel. (ONLY)
Yet, He was THERE in person at the time speaking. But READ VERSE 23?
"Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, [TILL THE SON OF MAN BE BE COME]". Yes, to/fold! But who is Virgin Israel today that 1 Peter 4:17 is talking about??? Their testing, is NOT 666!


************************************
Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
Hi,
like I say, does one believe God??? REALLY BELIEVE HIM??? If so, then there [is] absolute PROOF! God said it, and I belive it & that SETTLES IT FOR ME!

And this proof will clear up much 'poor' grammer too? (smile)

Who was Adams first creation? (pro/creation as in the image of God)
What FIRST created son fell?
Who was BEFORE Adams creation???? Who rebelled in heaven? Who would not [except Christ] in heaven? Who would not EXCEPT CHRIST in the Faith sacrifice of the LAMB? Who was it in heaven that first sinned, & God still let him to 'temporarily' let LIVE ON? Who was it on earth that FIRST sinned AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST & became the servant of satan, that also was permitted to temporarily live on? (120 yrs.?) before Seth, the son of God came on the scene.

A lot of questions? Well, here IS THE GODHEADS ANSWER: "IF"? WE do still BELIEVE that the 66 Books are THE WORD OF GOD! And we still believe that the Hosly Ghost inspired the WORD? And that God is.. the same Yesterday, Today & Forever! & That [HE CANNOT LIE!] (oh' by the way, NO, Christ WAS NOT CREATED!!-will catch that at another time! smile)

If one can testify to the above, they are ready to proceed from milk to more substance perhaps?
OK: In Eccl. 1:9-10 & in Eccl. 3:15 God has DECLARED that BEFORE ADAM's FIRST SON REBELLED, SO DID [HIS FIRST] CREATED SON! And for the SAME reasons, [MATURITY against GOD] became the CHARACTER's [[final]] freewill Decision!

(in part & with highlights!--- And with the Rainbow given, & the inspiration also given that 'sin will not arise a SECOND time', these very FEW with others, of these verses are prophetic forwards & BACKWARDS)

"The thing that [HATH BEEN] (Satans created) IT IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE, AND THAT WHICH BE DONE IS THAT WHICH [SHALL BE DONE]: AND THERE IS [NO NEW THING] UNDER THE SUN.


IS THERE [ANYTHING] WHEREOF IT MAY BE SAID, SEE THIS IS NEW? (I am Glad that the Lord did not give us time to garbel this up with Laodicean garbel, before HE ANSWERS HIMSELF) [IT HATH ALREADY BEEN BEFORE US."
And who was BEFORE ADAM??

I can hear some already saying, well? uh? well maybe Lord? but?? Of course I believe you Lord, but maybe you made a mistake??

SO: The Lord repeats Himself again over in chapter 3:15 ibide.
"THAT WHICH HATH BEEN [IS NOW]; (other world's'? tested like the tree in the MIDST of the garden of eden? The LORD SAY'S YES!)
AND THAT WHICH [IS TO BE HATH ALREADY BEEN]; AND [GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST.]"

Do a check? Old & new testaments. The first Virgin denomination was CUT off at Christ's First comming, & so will the last one be! (see Eze. 9) Sodom & Gomorrah repeat! The FALLING AWAY of FOLDS of John 10:16. TEST of 666 was before us, see Ex. 16:4's last part & verse 28 before we, (as they were to) enter their land of CANNAN in verse 35. And the crucifixion of the Master's repeat? see Heb. 6:6! (and on & on it goes, BUT! We are told the ENDING.) ----P/N/B/
********
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by JesusServant
Yes!&nbsp; Only listen to Ephraim 777, he is the only one on Christian Forums that knows anything, the rest of us are poor, unintelligent, spirit-less slobs that only heard about faith from our second grade school teacher and profess it as a farce for fun in spare time.

Eph writes...

Hmm...seems you have taken what I wrote out of context somehow...Please refer to EPH 4:11:12...since I make no claim of being that person FOR you...I would encourage you to take the info I provided and ask him about it...and BE as the Bereans were in Acts 17...!

btw...this is a wrong minded response by you...
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by JesusServant [/i]

You are saying because I need scripture to back up what you are saying that I am immature and cannot understand you because I don't hear God and the Spirit of Truth.&nbsp; Real nice.&nbsp; You and ephraim777 would probably have a great time putting down us immature stupid christians, you should get together sometime.

Eph says....

Sorry "JS" but since you brought me into this by tagging my name to this post...let me just say a little clearer...

I wrote to be VERY wary of the peole who post around here..SOME..(( not all )) are very non informed in Biblical Scriptural teachings...and everyone should "check out" things before any "gleaning goes on"..Thats all...you took that somehow as personal when it was delivered in "general" terms...I not pointing fingers at ANYONE in particular...


:clap:
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by T-roi [/i]
Eph777, thank you for you advice. I have come across a few who obviously didn't know what they were talking about. That is what I meant by glean...

Eph replies...

T rio thats all I meant by it..I've been here only a few months and I have read things soooo out in left field that it was scary..Not to mention being told I was being mean and un christian to people when I decided to question them on things they post...!
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by T-roi
I had a nice post typed up and ready to submit but I did something wrong, got an error message, and then it was gone. The whole thing! So I'm going to try this again...

OK, we seem to have two new thoughts going here.

1. Jesus (according to JesusServant) was the first of creation.

EPH writes...

I'd have to disagree with that thought..( sorry JS )..Jesus is NOT a created being...he is devine ( and I'm not talking about grapes )...LOL..although I could preach a sermon on that now that I come to think of it...!



2. Satan&nbsp;(according to PNB)&nbsp;was the first of creation. (I can't find your quote PNB so correct me if I'm wrong).

Eph buzzes in...

Uh I'll take US Presidents for 100...please..LOL ..!
Again I'd have to disagree here ( sorry PNB )...!

T roi writes....
Well, I hate to muddy the waters but, truthfully, I can't agree with either completely. As to Jesus being the first of creation this is a very old debate. It is also known as Arianism and was addressed by the church in the first council of Nicea. It was refuted there and laid to rest. Granted, depending on your religios background, the opinion of the catholic church on an issue "settled" over 1500 years ago may not carry much weight so let's go to the bible. The best verse is Jn 1:1. There John, speaking of Jesus, calls him "the word" (logos) and says that "in the beginning...the word was with God and the word was God". Jesus was with God from "the beginning". That leaves no room for his being created. He was always with God. Another good verse is Jn 8:58 where Jesus, summing up a discourse which begun with "I am the light of the world", states "before Abraham was born, I am!" The Jews wanted to stone him for these words because they were extreme blasphemy. Why? Because Jesus was referring back to Ex 3:14 where God gives Moses his name, "ehyeh asher ehyeh" or "I am that I am". This name of God was later to become so revered by the Jews that they would not even say it. It, according to tradition, was only spoken once a year (the Day of Atonement) by the High Priest while he was in the Holy of Holies. Now this wasn't God's intention but it shows how a Jew viewed the name. Jesus, in Jn 8:58, therefore is calling himself nothing short of YahWeh (Jehovah), or simply GOD! This would be a big boast from one who was simply a part of creation but it was not a big boast for Jesus. He is God. (please don't drag me into the trinity though. To be honest, it's simply over my head. Jesus, in my opinion is God. Let me leave it at that)

EPH says...

T roi ...I knew from the way you wrote that other post..that you were a JEDI...LOL


T roi says...
Thank you both for the discussion. Hearing others beliefs challenges me to defend and develop my own better. Let's just remember we're not here to change each other's minds so much as to simply enjoy discussing the Word and cause others to look at something in a new way (we can wrestle with it and [if it is warranted] change our minds later on our own).


Eph clapping as the curtain comes down on one "heck of a" post says

Encore Encore :clap: :clap:
 
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