Questions for trinitarians ?????

How did Jesus become God?

Jesus never became God.

Jesus didn't become God, Jesus is God.

Phill 2: 5-7
  "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:  Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

Originally posted by franklin
So "the man", Is this another one of your proof texts that justifies the trinity?  Fraid not friend!  If this one passage confirms that God is a trinity and that God's Son is God, then what you have just done is, you have destroyed the true scriptural picture of who Jesus really is! View Christ as "very God" -- co-equal, co-eternal, "possessor of' heaven and earth", unlimited in power and knowledge, unable to be tempted - and all this becomes meaningless and unreal. It is "making the Word of God of none effect by tradition", interpreting it in such a way that it loses all meaning.  The trinity does not glorify God or Jesus! 

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So "franklin"  you asked a question 'when did Jesus become God', I gave an answer with a passage from the Bible saying that Jesus is God.  Now you start to go off on my quote proving the trinity?  You asked a question I gave you an answer.  It seems to me you don't even want the answers (from your immediate attack about the trinity)so don't ask the questions.  Which is infact I suggest you do, because you are not looking for answers to your questions, you already have the answers isn't that right?   Why did you ask the question then?

Originally posted by franklin
So how does Phil 2 explain that Jesus "is" God? This is your answer right?

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"Jesus, though he was God, did not cling to his rights as God."

Pretty blatant to me. How's ya miss it?

What are you asking? whether the trinity holds or whether Jesus is God.  I believe your question was to the latter, but your agenda is of the former.  I'm only adressing your [first] question (because the other one is irrelevant to me considering the answer to the first).   If you do not believe the Bible, then it is easy to see how you will refute this.  However, if you believe in the Bible and turn to the Gospel of John 10 read from vs 24-30.  You will see that Jesus clearly says He is God.  What more do you need?  Or will these verses that I have given you be again one of the..oh how did you put it.."standard passages to prove the trinity"  Heh, makes me chuckle really. 

Nothing wrong with asking questions mate (infact read the first sentence of my post).  People ask questions to gain information.  Your question is not for gaining information (since you already know where trinitarians stand and have your own beliefs), your question is just to rouse a "discussion"  If you were seeking the trinitarians view, it is one thing to say, I'm not convinced with the answers (not they are not my answers, I'm taking them right out of scripture), it is another thing to prescribe the answers as wrong before they are given, which again leads to why you were asking them in the first place. 

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
"Jesus, though he was God, did not cling to his rights as God."

Pretty blatant to me. How's ya miss it?

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The same thing I was wondering.

Yo Franklin,
This is an interesting topic. I have heard both sides and really don't have an opinion either way. However I do have some questions. Could you explian to me from your side the following:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Gen 1:26

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Why is this scripture plural? Who is the 'us' and the 'our'?

Also I have often wondered about this scripture as well:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning......The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-2,14

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Does this scripture also show a plural God in the beginning? Who is the "He" that was with God in the beginning? This scripture also indicates that the "Word was God" and "became flesh". What point is this writer trying to make?

I am not taking sides, just seeking answers.

see ya, IB

The main benefit Jesus has for me is the fact that he gave his life for us and that he serves as a great example of how to lead a life favorable in God's eyes.
Was the purpose of Jesus being sent to earth to act as a God to us? I don't think so..thus, I don't feel that it would benefit me for Jesus to be God.

I think that Jesus said that " when you see me you see the father" and " I and the father are one"
This would seem to suggest that Jesus understood himslef as being the same with the father; ie he and God are one

David

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a child is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty GOD , the Everlasting FATHER , The Prince of Peace.

How did Jesus become God?

Who benefits from Jesus becoming God?

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I'm not aware of anyone who believes Jesus became God. There really are two beliefs:

2. Jesus is not God, therefore He is a CREATED BEING.
1. Jesus is God---no beginning, no "becoming", He was God from the start.

John1 says "through Jesus came all things into being, and apart from Him came thothing into being that has come into being." So---if JESUS came-into-being, how did Jesus come into being, apart from Jesus???

Who benefits from Jesus being God? That's rather non-sequitur, isn't it? Jesus is what He is; either way, He's still our SAVIOR. but then, if He is NOT God, then God created a being to serve as our sacrifice for sin; or, God-became-man to pay for what man could not.

An interesting additional question: Isaiah 43:10-12 says, " 'Before Me there was no God formed, they shall be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord. There is NO SAVIOR besides Me. It is I who have saved and proclaimed, and there was no strange god among you; so you are My witnesses' declares the Lord, 'and I am God.' "

There is no Savior besides Jehovah.

Who then is Jesus???

(BTW, Philip2:6 correctly translates: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ")

It seems to me you don't even want the answers. Yyou are not looking for answers to your questions, you already have the answers isn't that right?

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Indeed it is. Yet no heart changes until it is ready; and it is the heart itself that changes, WITH GOD. We ourselves do not change others. As long as there is discourse and discussion, there is opportunity to speak the Gospel---and perhaps only a seed is planted, to grow later...

Originally posted by IB

This is an interesting topic. I have heard both sides and really don't have an opinion either way. However I do have some questions. Could you explian to me from your side the following:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Gen 1:26

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Why is this scripture plural? Who is the 'us' and the 'our'?

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At the time God SAID this, the ONLY living creatures that were existing were cherubims which God placed at the east gate of Eden when He drove Adam and Eve from the garden (Gen. 3:24).

Thus, I believe that God was talking with cherubims when He decided to CREATE man.

Also I have often wondered about this scripture as well:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning......The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-2,14

Click to expand...

Does this scripture also show a plural God in the beginning? Who is the "He" that was with God in the beginning? This scripture also indicates that the "Word was God" and "became flesh". What point is this writer trying to make?

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John 1:1 does NOT speak of a plural God. The WORD that was with God in the beginning was God's PLAN regarding the redemption of the world ("logos"). This verse refers specifically to God's PROMISE recorded in Isaiah 7:14.

John 1:14 speaks of the FULFILLMENT of God's PROMISE recorded in Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Matt. 1:21-23).

John 1:2-3 is referring to Jesus NOT the word (cf. Col. 1:16).

Ed

Originally posted by dnich163
I think that Jesus said that " when you see me you see the father" and " I and the father are one"
This would seem to suggest that Jesus understood himslef as being the same with the father; ie he and God are one

David

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The fact that you used the phrase "this would seem to suggest" PROVES that the verses you quoted do NOT specifically SAY that Jesus and the Father are one GOD.

On the contrary, the Bible CLEARLY teaches that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Thus, the verses you quoted must be interpreted DIFFERENTLY so as NOT to CONTRADICT what Jesus SAYS in other verses.

Ed

 

Originally posted by sonworshipper
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a child is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty GOD , the Everlasting FATHER , The Prince of Peace.

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Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy which was only partly-fulfilled. The first part was fulfilled but the second part was not fulfilled.  Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God" and "everlasting Father." Jesus IDENTIFIED the Father as the ONLY true God (John 17:3) and Jesus COMMANDED his disciples NOT to cll anyone on earth Father for one is the Father in heaven (Matt. 23:9). At that time, Jesus was on earth.

Prophecies of prophets of God ALWAYS come true. Since Isaiah was a prophet of God,  and the second part of his prophecy did NOT come true, then that part must have been a MISTRANSLATION.

Ed

Originally posted by Ben johnson
I'm not aware of anyone who believes Jesus became God. There really are two beliefs:

2. Jesus is not God, therefore He is a CREATED BEING.
1. Jesus is God---no beginning, no "becoming", He was God from the start.

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Actually, Jesus is a CREATED being (MAN - cf. Gen. 1:27; John 8:40), and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3). Therefore, Jesus is NOT God.

The belief that Jesus is God from the start does NOT have a Biblical leg to stand on. Jesus SAID that he CAME and PROCEEDED forth FROM God (John 8:42). 

The Trinitarian belief that Jesus is God because Jesus WAS the WORD that WAS God and BECAME a MAN  that was called Jesus is ABSURD. First, there is NO Biblical PROOF that Jesus was the Word BEFORE Jesus was born. Second, if Jesus was God who BECAME man, then Jesus is MAN - not God in much the same way that a hatched egg is called a chick - not an egg/chick.

John1 says "through Jesus came all things into being, and apart from Him came thothing into being that has come into being." So---if JESUS came-into-being, how did Jesus come into being, apart from Jesus???

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John 1:2-3 refer to the flesh that the word TURNED into.  Apostle Paul MAKES this CLEAR in Col. 1:16.

Who benefits from Jesus being God? That's rather non-sequitur, isn't it? Jesus is what He is; either way, He's still our SAVIOR. but then, if He is NOT God, then God created a being to serve as our sacrifice for sin; or, God-became-man to pay for what man could not.

An interesting additional question: Isaiah 43:10-12 says, " 'Before Me there was no God formed, they shall be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord. There is NO SAVIOR besides Me. It is I who have saved and proclaimed, and there was no strange god among you; so you are My witnesses' declares the Lord, 'and I am God.' "

There is no Savior besides Jehovah.

Who then is Jesus???

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The Bible teaches that God EXALTED Jesus to be Prince and Savior, to give REPENTANCE to Israel and FORGIVENESS of sins (Acts 5:31). God is the savior THROUGH Jesus.

(BTW, Philip2:6 correctly translates: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ")

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Apostle Paul wrote that Jesus is he IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God (Col. 1:15), the EXPRESS IMAGE of God's person (Heb. 1:3). Apostle Paaul wrote that Jesus HAS a God AND Father (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).  Apostle Paul wrote that there is ONLY ONE God, the Father (1 Cot. 8:6).

In the light of these verses, how can one even think that apostle Paul THOUGHT Jesus is God?

Ed