Are you part of Mainstream Messianic Judaism?

Do you consider yourself part of 'Mainstream Messianic Judaism'?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Not sure

  • I come here because I am searching for the truth

  • I believe that MJ should not look like 'church in a kippah'

  • I wish we could get back to the days right after the assention in Jerusalem


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M

MessianicMommy

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Easy G (G²);

Germany, especially depending on the region one is in, isn't that unfriendly to fellow EU citizens, especially if their values and order of operation are about the same. The problem is those people who break the mold and expect things to change because they are different than society. (like many Americans tend to --not all-- but the majority do) The only complaint we had in our integration courses were minor differences that were easily corrected once people knew what protocols were in place.

There are however perceptions about certain groups of immigrants being one way, and that it is unacceptable to German society at large - but you find that most the time complaints are/were lodged, it wasn't the population that was accused of wrong-doing that did anything wrong. :aarh:


Anyway, back to subject -- What actually makes me wonder, is that other congregations under the BSS umbrella make it work fine with Russian, German and sometimes another language thrown into the mix. I'm a product of a very multicultural lifestyle. :puff:I'm used to dual languages every day, sometimes with a third in the mix, and even services with two or three languages at once. It can work! I've seen it work just fine. I can understand (I guess) that they want to cater to the majority group, especially if the pastor there struggles with German. :doh1: I'm wondering if perhaps that was the issue. :mmh:Probably was, considering how strange that email seemed to read.


As far as integration goes, there's not that much asked of people. 5 hours a day, 5 days a week for 9 months of beginner German, and if you want a high paying job, 9 more months of the same in an advanced course - which would have you certified. Not unlike Ulpan offered in Israel... or the great ESL courses offered in the USA... just a little more hard core than the ESL.

Citizenship courses aren't unlike what is offered in the USA. I just don't find Germany that harsh honestly. The country really does get a bad rap.

Your quote from the Jewish Daily Forward is quite accurate. Problem is, Judaism never was about being a lone wolf out there. Judaism cannot continue in that way, because it is as much about the community as it is about the individual. FWIW, Christianity was also that way once... though it seems to be changing a bit as of late in some groups.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Easy G (G²);

Germany, especially depending on the region one is in, isn't that unfriendly to fellow EU citizens, especially if their values and order of operation are about the same. The problem is those people who break the mold and expect things to change because they are different than society. (like many Americans tend to --not all-- but the majority do) .
Understood. Though I'm not really certain as to what aspect you're seeing many Americans in when saying that the majority expect things to change. Not saying that many don't, but there are differing ways of seeing it.

The only complaint we had in our integration courses were minor differences that were easily corrected once people knew what protocols were in place.

There are however perceptions about certain groups of immigrants being one way, and that it is unacceptable to German society at large - but you find that most the time complaints are/were lodged, it wasn't the population that was accused of wrong-doing that did anything wrong. :aarh:
Do you have any examples of such? In specific, do you have any examples of Russian based fellowships or others in Germany society were they spoke out and said they were fine despite claims that they said things against the culture? As you're there, my expectation is that you'd have more info on the subject.


Anyway, back to subject -- What actually makes me wonder, is that other congregations under the BSS umbrella make it work fine with Russian, German and sometimes another language thrown into the mix. I'm a product of a very multicultural lifestyle. :puff:I'm used to dual languages every day, sometimes with a third in the mix, and even services with two or three languages at once. It can work!
No doubt in my mind that having a billingual service can indeed work...


Seen it myself, as I grew up in a multicultural lifestyle myself.

I've seen it work just fine. I can understand (I guess) that they want to cater to the majority group, especially if the pastor there struggles with German. :doh1: I'm wondering if perhaps that was the issue. :mmh:Probably was, considering how strange that email seemed to read.

Wouldn't be surprised if that was indeed the case..

As far as integration goes, there's not that much asked of people. 5 hours a day, 5 days a week for 9 months of beginner German, and if you want a high paying job, 9 more months of the same in an advanced course - which would have you certified. Not unlike Ulpan offered in Israel... or the great ESL courses offered in the USA... just a little more hard core than the ESL.

Citizenship courses aren't unlike what is offered in the USA. I just don't find Germany that harsh honestly. The country really does get a bad rap.
Very legitimate

Your quote from the Jewish Daily Forward is quite accurate. Problem is, Judaism never was about being a lone wolf out there. Judaism cannot continue in that way, because it is as much about the community as it is about the individual. FWIW, Christianity was also that way once... though it seems to be changing a bit as of late in some groups

I think the lone wolf aspect comes into view when examining certain camps within Judaism that were essentially lone wolves and yet were a community. The Essenes come immediately to mind amongst others, as they were amongst the main groups within Judaism (i.e. Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Herodians, etc) but faded out of the picture before Jesus arrived on the scene...as earlier, they actually left Jerusalem entirely at one point due to not wanting to be apart of the corruption they saw. And decided to live in the desert. More was discussed on the issue here in #94. And within that, the other thing coming to mind is the culture of things such as Eastern Monasticsm among the Jewis people.
 
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As far as where we fit theologically, yes, we agree with most everything the main groups believe - but it is in practice where we vary.
Indeed, it is generally the way that a faith is expressed/played out as opposed to the belief itself that often seems to be the center of most of things within MJ. Sometimes, the things that are stated in SOP (Statement of Purpose) pages by main groups and how they're lived out by many seem akin to what I remember watching with the "Pirates of the Caribbean" trilogy when the Pirate Code came up and one of them noted that "the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules. ...".





Outside of that, wishing you the best..and Happy Thankgiving early celebration, by the way:)
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);58985378 said:
Understood. Though I'm not really certain as to what aspect you're seeing many Americans in when saying that the majority expect things to change. Not saying that many don't, but there are differing ways of seeing it.

Do you have any examples of such? In specific, do you have any examples of Russian based fellowships or others in Germany society were they spoke out and said they were fine despite claims that they said things against the culture? As you're there, my expectation is that you'd have more info on the subject.


No doubt in my mind that having a billingual service can indeed work...


Seen it myself, as I grew up in a multicultural lifestyle myself.



Wouldn't be surprised if that was indeed the case..

Very legitimate



I think the lone wolf aspect comes into view when examining certain camps within Judaism that were essentially lone wolves and yet were a community. The Essenes come immediately to mind amongst others, as they were amongst the main groups within Judaism (i.e. Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Herodians, etc) but faded out of the picture before Jesus arrived on the scene...as earlier, they actually left Jerusalem entirely at one point due to not wanting to be apart of the corruption they saw. And decided to live in the desert. More was discussed on the issue here in #94. And within that, the other thing coming to mind is the culture of things such as Eastern Monasticsm among the Jewis people.
Amen... volumes of followers does not make it the truth... Were not the Essenes also known as THE WAY??
303073_294022477286612_100000365871505_1062854_1345836775_n.jpg
 
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volumes of followers does not make it the truth...
Indeed, though on the same token, just because one situation with many followers was based on falsehood does not automatically make others within a minority the epitome of truth. There have been plenty of times others have tried to utilize the imagery of others who were on the margins and willing to choose descent (as Brother Jonathan Merrit noted well in his article entitled In Praise of Dissent )----even though those in the minority were already shown to be without any real credibility. Sometimes, whereas some things deemed conspiracy theories are more than valid/worth adhering to, there've been other times where many things labeled "conspiracy" are simply bogus...and ALOT of people just go with them parroting "If it's not in the mainstream, it MUST be correct!!!!"


There are some things no one in the majority believes and they are more than fine believing it even when a minority says "It's not true" because they have no basis. If it were not the case, then most of the books within the stores in the UFO Theology/Neo Paganism sections or parts claiming that Jesus was "invented" would be considered "evidence" and we'd be wrong for saying that it doesn't belong in any way as a credible view even when they may say back "You just believe in Yeshua because the Church told you to!!!"

If you've ever seen the film entitled "Zeitgeist", you'll quickly see what I mean since the film tries to play up on the same quote you offered on truth/lies when it comes to arguing that the Christian religion specifically is mainly derived from other religions, astronomical assertions, astrological myths and traditions, which in turn were derived from or shared elements with others. In furtherance of the Jesus myth hypothesis, the film (reflective of many others who are considered to be "conspiracy junkies" by some) t argues that the historical Jesus is a literary and astrological hybrid, nurtured politically. The main thing they'll often parrot back if disbeliving them is "Don't believe in the establishment!!!!!"----but as said before, they use the imagery of those who correctly went against it to make themselves appear in the same way.

The same is possible even when it comes to following the Lord and in what occurred with Messianic Judaism.

To me, there needs to be consideration given on BOTH sides and real study. Those who were early followers of the Lord and called "Christians" at Antioch (of the Nazarene Sect, Acts 24:4-6 and Acts 24:13-15) in Acts 11...they were once a minority--and they were a MAJORITY as well in later times. Both being in both camps did not equate to them having truth simply because of status alone.

Were not the Essenes also known as THE WAY??
They had alot of valid things to offer. However, in discussing them, there needs to be caution...as they did not explicitly believe that Yeshua was the Messiah nor did they advocate a host of things that the Lord stood for. Even with them being in a minority status for many valid reasons, their status alone does not give room for thinking every one of their practices or theology are to be celebrated.

Of course, it's more than reasonable to note that many of those who were Essenes came to join into the camp of believers/influenced them. As said elsewhere, Historically already were the early believers STRINKINGLY akin to the Essenes in practice and why numerous scholars have made clear its illogical to assume the Essenes prescence was not present or that those of the Essene priesthood were not there simply because Scripture doesn't meantion them in comparision to the Pharisees and Sadducees/Herodians or Zealots. The authorized priesthood in Jerusalem (with Caiphas and Ananias) may have been in power but that in no way meant that in those times it was seen as legitimate by all camps. ....including camps in Jerusalem, as not all priests LIVING in Jerusalem participated in the priesthood practiced by those in POWER in Jerusalem.


For more info on the subject of corruption in the days of Judaism/THOSE who were in power, As seen in John 11:45-57, the text makes clear that the Chief Priests and the Pharisees were afraid of the their nation being taken away due to the actions of Christ. And the phrase "Our place" almost certainly refers to the temple (Acts 6:13-14, Acts 21:28). The phrase "The romans will come and take away both our place and our nation" may refer to the feared removal of the Jews' semiautonomous status by the Romans (1 Macc. 5:19). Ironically, what the Sanhedrin sought to prevent by killing Jesus still came to pass when the Romans razed the temple and captured Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Concerning who the Chief Priests are---as referenced in John 11 as well as Luke 9:21-22, Luke 22:52 and Luke 22:54-71 and Matthew 26:57-67---the "chief priests" are not the high priests but rather members of the most prominent priestly families. As it concerns the Jewish high court, it consisted of 71 members----70 elders according to the pattern of Numbers 11:16 plus the high priest as presiding officer. It was dominated by the priestly Sadducees with a Pharisaic minority, represented mainly by the scribes (lawyers) of the court. This is what was referenced in John 7:45-51 when an attempt was made to arrest Jesus. Under the Roman procurators, three wealthy priestly families largely controlled the extremely important position of high priest. Annas was the patriarch of one of these powerful families of high priest (Acts 4:6). Annas was designated as the high priest (much like a U.S President, as high priests seemed to have retained their title for life). He had served in that role earlier (A.D. 6-15) and was the controlling figure in the high-priestly circle, which may also explain why he is given the title in Acts 4:6. His son-in-law Caiaphas was the official high priest at this time, serving A.D. 18-36, and Anna's son John would serve in that role later (36-37). Caiphas also presided over the Sanhedrin during the time of Christ's trial.....as he managed to retain control of the high priesthood gor nearly 18years (c.A.D. 18-36)----Longer than anyone else in the first century (cf. Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.35, 95). He was certainly the high priest during Jesus' ministry, although he also consulted frequently with his father-in-law Annas (John 18:13, Luke 3:2).


There were definately cases of class warfare/favoritism within the priesthood--and those without power often had to live on the sidelines or be outsted. It's one of the reasons (coupled with the corruption of the priesthood) why many Essenes had left Jerusalem and chose to live in the Desert

The lower ranks of the priesthood numbered in the thousands, of whom many were POOR and may have been attracted to Christians by their charity, under the guidance of thr newly appointed deacons. This is said in light of Acts 6:7 when it notes how many priests came to faith in Messiah ---as some have noted those specific priests who came to salvation were of the Essene camp. One can consider the concept of Ronin Samurai, as that may aid in making more sense on the issue. For in Japan, there was a dominant class of Samurai loyal to one leader/clan or dynasty whereas the Ronin were those who were not employed by dominant groups.....often rouge and on their own, yet still considered "Samurai" and with others who were alongside them. It was the same with many of the priests who did not have the same mobility as the priestly families who were rich/had power due to being DOMINANT. There were many Essenes who still did buisness in Jerusalem during the era of the Pharisees and Sadduccess, influencing. And yet, as they lived a COMMUNAL life, they would not have had as much economic power. With the believers living RADICALLY in their lifestyles and ensuring others were provided for, it would have been very attractive to priests from the Essene world.


With Acts 6:7 on the large crowd of cohanim ("priests") becoming obediant to the faith, what needs to be kept in mind is that although most of the cohanim are presented in the New Testament as being opposed to Yeshua, this was not true of all. There were holy men in the priesthood such as the father of John the Baptist (Luke 1:5-25, Luke 1:57-59).....and as it concerns the theory that the cohanim coming to believe in Yeshua were not part of the establishment---being instead those who had become disenchanted with it and had gone off to join the Essenes in Qumara---the reasoning is that the theology of the Dead Sea Scrolls is much closer to the New Testament than that of the Tz'dukim who controlled the Jerusalem priesthood.

Of course, since the activity of the Messianic believers had not yet spread to other parts of the Land than Jerusalem, one could make a case that the cohanim becoming obediant to the faith at this time in Acts 6:7 were those who made it their buisness to be in Jerusalem, rather than retreat to the desert. For God can reach the hearts even of people whose usual ties and associations might be expected to lead them to an opposing stance.

Of course, it could also be said that God already had others not in Jerusalem who were bringing the Good News to others. Luke 9:49-50 and Mark 9:38-41 comes to mind....as there was a believer who was outside the circle of the Twelve and the disciples were quick to criticize those belonged to Christ and yet did not belong to their group. At the time, the disciples/Christ were already outside of Jerusalem.....as seen in Mark 9:38-43 when he goes past Galilee (the "Ghetto" of Jesus's time) and warns them of his impending suffering in Jerusalem to come.. .and yet, beginning at Capernum, Jesus was apparently diverted from the more direct route when Samaritans refused him access (Luke 9:51-56). As seen in Mark 10:1, he went into the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan---possibly choosing to travel through Perea....before later pasing through Jericho and proceeding to Jerusalem.


In light of how Qumran served as a study site for the Essenes, a Jewish sect existing in Jesus's day, located at the edge of the Judea Wilderness as isolated community, the Essenes would have been able to live out their beliefs in separation from other religious groups of their time and await the last days. Not far from Qumran, the oases of Jericho and En Gedi provided desert homes for other ancient people. The Dead Sea was also nearby, with the land of Moab easily visible on its eastern shore.....and as Jesus travled at one point past Jericho.

It would be amazing to see if Jesus passed by them at some point/introduced them to himself!!!:)


With the man whom Jesus told the disciples to leave alone due to his preaching their message (Mark 9), if a man could be found so far outside of Jerusalem who was preaching the Gospel, then there's no need supposing that there were not others preaching to those in Desert areas where the Essene Priests would have been----with converts being gathered.


All of that said, I think it needs to be noted that the Essenes were not the only "margin" group who came to the Lord since priests could've come from differing camps as well........as there were priests that were even within the camp of the Zealots, the sister group alongside the Pharisees under Hasidim. For more info, one can go here to "The Zealots | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site" ( )..and As said best by the ministry of "Follow the Rabbi" ..as seen here and here:

The Pharisees, passionately devoted to God, were apparently content to condemn idolatry and strive to separate themselves from all religious contamination. Though on occasion they became the object of brutal repression for their stubborn refusal to accept any of the pagan practices of the emperor, they seem to have been reluctant to use violence to advance their cause (at least until after Jesus' time).


The Zealots had a different view of serving God (1). Occasionally the Romans conducted a census of their subject lands to determine the taxable resources of these peoples. To the Jews who believed they and their land belonged to Yahweh, a census reminded them that they were the "possession of Rome." The fact that Roman emperors (thought to be divine and worshiped in some of the Gentile towns of the land) ordered the censuses added to the bitterness of the Jews toward taxation. They belonged to God and were not to honor anyone else but him.


TTW-tran-3-15.jpg





You and I have discussed before the mindset of the Zealots/its implications for us today, if you recall the thread entitled Chanakuh, Pacifism and Presentations of Christ as a Militant ...Zealots were a minority group just as the Essenes were--and they also felt that they were representing the Way of the Lord fully, even as it concerns living as they felt the Messiah would have them. Of course, I'm certain we'd ALL be not comfortable if they were looked to as the example for how we're to be simply because the majority didn't accept them at the time.....



When I consider the ways that other groups were on the margins as well whom we'd probably all disagree with sharply if they came in the name of the Messiah and claimed that Messianic Jews should physically fight back against all who go against the Lord's Law, including with the use of domestic terrorism/as much violence as possible----as the Zealots did---it can be odd to me that others may idealize the Essenes if trying to make the point that it's okay to be "lone wolves" within Judaism. For many camps could've been easily labeled "lone wolves" and yet we'd quickly stand against them and advocate for their going with the majority view that we all deem correct....and yet, if there's a view we accept which the majority may not like, we can look to a minority group that's to our liking and say "See how they lived out their faith alone!!!" (as the Essenes did).

Just some thoughts..
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Judaism never was about being a lone wolf out there. Judaism cannot continue in that way, because it is as much about the community as it is about the individual. FWIW, Christianity was also that way once... though it seems to be changing a bit as of late in some groups.

Curious as to what specific groups it is that you may be referring to. Additionally, I think it is noteworthy that the idea of "lone wolf" may often be derived from others seeing the stories in scripture where many of the prophets (i.e. Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, etc) were alone...independent and yet authorized by the Lord to address the majority.
 
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MessianicMommy

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Easy G (G²);58985378 said:
Understood. Though I'm not really certain as to what aspect you're seeing many Americans in when saying that the majority expect things to change. Not saying that many don't, but there are differing ways of seeing it.

I meant more at the minority squeaky wheel wanting change.... or how many Americans won't change to fit into society here, instead deciding to stay on/near the base, fellowship exclusively with other Americans, speak English and not learn the language.. that kind of thing. Doesn't always happen of course, but that's the largest community that wasn't (and still mostly isn't) changing to fit in. The harsh reality is that many think "oh heck, I'll be out of here in a year to three years, so why should I try?"

I found my cousin to be an exception - he retired here, learned the language (as mangled as it is), had married a local girl and they're living on the economy, with him studying in university and also working in the local volunteer fire dept. I have a couple of American friends who are also the exception, trying to learn and travel and see and do as much as possible, and we include them in family events as well as events where we will be speaking only English with them.

Easy G (G²);58985378 said:
Do you have any examples of such? In specific, do you have any examples of Russian based fellowships or others in Germany society were they spoke out and said they were fine despite claims that they said things against the culture? As you're there, my expectation is that you'd have more info on the subject.

Not so much on fellowships/churches, but in our integration course we were constantly being accused of not cleaning up after ourselves if we had food in our classroom, or that someone left candy wrappers, or that the bathrooms were not kept in a neat and tidy order.

We cleaned *meticulously* when we saw that there were crumbs, wrappers, cups or anything left behind, and had a full ban placed on us towards the last 3 months of our classes on food. Exceptions were made for me due to my pregnancy. We even cleaned sometimes before we started classes due to how distracting it was to some of us (self included) that there was a mess left by the previous -German- class. We shared a building with the local adult education center/Technical/Hairdressing school. And if that building hadn't a room for us on a given day, we used one in the adjacent building that harbored a business upstairs, and computer-tech classes down in the basement.

There was a big kerfuffle about us being an "unclean" bunch, when in fact, we were one of the better classes, and looked after each other. If someone was sick, we asked for the homework and found a way to get it to each other. We made sure everyone pitched in for birthdays/anniversaries, and we looked after our teachers.

From what I heard after my graduation, we were the best class there in years. We made Multiculturalism worked, we got along, and there was only one disagreement the entire 9 months. No reason at all why there were so many complaints, other than the fact that someone who worked in the building we used, didn't like certain other cultures.

Our cultural makeup was Russian, Ukranian, Polish, Afghani, Pakistani, Turkish, Kurdish Turk, Thai, Eritrian, Ethiopian, Kenyan, Bulgarian, American (myself) and we sometimes had someone auditing our class that was a supervisor. Our teachers were Italian, Polish and German.


At our old place of residence, there was a fuss over the division of cleaning duty in our shared hallway and parking area. We did our part every week, until one point where I fell ill and I wasn't doing it, but was having to remind my DH to. The complaint wasn't that it wasn't getting done on time or even properly, but that somehow we did not keep up our end of the bargain and were making a ruckus late in the evenings or early mornings. I always asked our bakery neighbor if we were loud due to my having a little one and sometimes needing to vacuum during the odd quiet hours (12-3pm) - and was told no, they never heard us... so I knew who the complaints were really about - our upstairs neighbors.

Then there were complaints about our trash sorting habits (if you don't know how trash is handled here, it's recycling, regular, paper and compost) -- it wasn't us, because I was meticulous about not getting it wrong so no one could complain and so we could fit it in our tiny bins each month. (DH complained I was becoming OCD about it honestly.) Come to find out, it was our neighbors that were the problem. We ended up several times unable to take our trash out due to their trash sorting habits. There was a threat by one of our landlords to hire a maid service - so I decided to take it upon myself to clean the entire hallway when it was our week, and when it was their week.

There are often complaints on Toytown about minor issues and differences in the workplace, rental situations or even about town about those of us ex-pats living in Germany. The biggest complaint is always the WC/Toilets... usu. whether or not it should have a "shelf" or not....[see here for photos] and requests to change them out for more modern toilets if in long term renting situations... That, and the "sitzpinkel" --- the fact everyone uses the WC the same way, sitting down.... (how "feminine" of our men! ^_^)

As far as our Kindergarten goes, there was a kerfuffle because we have to bring our food. I went through a month of thinking everyone had lost their minds, because I have to bring dishes from the Kita back and forth every day -- I was not allowed to simply bring food in bento boxes to have those used as our dishes, because some parents thought I was trying to treat my child special. I was simply trying to make things easier by keeping his food in one set of containers so it was not easily mixed up with everyone else's food. I already fix the food they're having on their catered menu every day, so the next complaint was that place mats may be "out of order" and that I was making our child ""special"" - until everyone learned of my, and my son's topical reactions. Place mat is a good idea, because it gives him, and the other children a better sense of boundary with their meals. No cross contamination, no sick and ill behaved child. He had no idea until he started kindergarten, that anyone eats any differently than we do, and that he could get sick by eating this/that - I always just made us a version of what everyone else was having and carefully supervised. Once it got sorted, my life was much easier. The complaints were made due to the perceived notion that because I was an American,I was trying to "be different" from everyone else. I wasn't trying - we just are due to having Celiac Disease. The catering company can't make food for our diet. It's just a better idea to have my son there for lunch, so he sees how other people behave at the table, and that everyone eats their food, and that different people have different dietary needs without it being only what "mama says".

As much an argument and stress as that was for almost two months, the big fuss is how wonderfully I make everything, how do I find the time and is it not exhausting? :D I swear - I feel trapped between the best of both worlds sometimes.
 
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Pinchme

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Me personally, I seen people select the going back to jerusalem after the ascension. I hope you mean stuck in time. It was bad years after the destruction and burning of Jerusalem. and the dark ages that followed. Couldnt have been wirth going back. Now being in a particular place at his descending would be nice. ah...:bow:

And i chose, I believe that MJ should not look like 'church in a kippah' because there is no way to fit him in religion nor under no hat.
 
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Pinchme

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"church in kippah" is a term to describe evangelism by Christians... it not returning to roots. Returning to roots is the theological return to Yeshua inspired and lived Judaism not the physical return to a time in history.

Thanks for the lesson, I would have never know. But sounded good.
 
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Pinchme

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"church in kippah" is a term to describe evangelism by Christians... it not returning to roots. Returning to roots is the theological return to Yeshua inspired and lived Judaism not the physical return to a time in history.

So theologically speaking, its the future. now where is my foot-in-mouth face.
 
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I meant more at the minority squeaky wheel wanting change.... or how many Americans won't change to fit into society here, instead deciding to stay on/near the base, fellowship exclusively with other Americans, speak English and not learn the language.. that kind of thing. Doesn't always happen of course, but that's the largest community that wasn't (and still mostly isn't) changing to fit in. The harsh reality is that many think "oh heck, I'll be out of here in a year to three years, so why should I try?"

I found my cousin to be an exception - he retired here, learned the language (as mangled as it is), had married a local girl and they're living on the economy, with him studying in university and also working in the local volunteer fire dept. I have a couple of American friends who are also the exception, trying to learn and travel and see and do as much as possible, and we include them in family events as well as events where we will be speaking only English with them.

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Thank you for clarifying. Honestly, I sympathesize with those who mainly talk/communicate with those in their own camp. For many, it may be a significant struggle to learn the langauge of another culture and become billingual....as they may feel there's no point trying to learn the language fully if they cannot master it fully/come off foolish to others for even trying. And for many, as they can still feel like outsiders even when they try to learn the language of a host-culture and utilize it, it makes sense to them to just wait until they leave and keep to their own group.

I was blessed to hear of the example of your cousin, who seemed to intergrate very well. Other stories come to my mind, in regards to those who've had the same experience in other countries...be it with traveling in the country they live in or seeking to find local families who'd take them in. Hoping to have more of that someday, as I've only experienced it whenever on the Mission Field or traveling with my own family to other countries (namely in the West Indies).

I've been to Germany once, by the way, for a week and a half. It happened back when I was coming out of Highschool in 2004 on a Mission trip there, first to Delmenhorst (the hometown of the pastor I work with) to work with the church that our Youth Pastor used to go to/experienced Christ at... and later to Eisenach, where we were apart of alot of local street evangelism done by the fellowships there and also went to visit the Wartburg Castle (where Martin Luther made very significant due to many historical reasons).Truly a wild experience...and being there, I was shocked to see not only how reserved it was..but also how dark it felt being in the country many times. Hated it at times, yet I loved it simultaneously and learned alot from it.

Some places in Europe I'd love to travel to more---but others I'd probably stay away from. In regards to what was noted about Russia (for example), I'd love to visit there..especially after interviewing the Russian student I was able to for my ethnographic study. And there are many things about the nation I'd love to see. However, being told to move there and adapt would not be an event that would work out easily..or with success, I think, for all involved. I'm reminded of something I heard of recently in regards to blacks going over to places such as Russia and experiencing ALOT of hardship due to a host of factors such as discrimination/racism, as seen here and here in the article entitled AFRO-EUROPE: Black people in Russia - News round-up. javascript:void(0)

Not so much on fellowships/churches, but in our integration course we were constantly being accused of not cleaning up after ourselves if we had food in our classroom, or that someone left candy wrappers, or that the bathrooms were not kept in a neat and tidy order.

We cleaned *meticulously* when we saw that there were crumbs, wrappers, cups or anything left behind, and had a full ban placed on us towards the last 3 months of our classes on food. Exceptions were made for me due to my pregnancy. We even cleaned sometimes before we started classes due to how distracting it was to some of us (self included) that there was a mess left by the previous -German- class. We shared a building with the local adult education center/Technical/Hairdressing school. And if that building hadn't a room for us on a given day, we used one in the adjacent building that harbored a business upstairs, and computer-tech classes down in the basement.


There was a big kerfuffle about us being an "unclean" bunch, when in fact, we were one of the better classes, and looked after each other. If someone was sick, we asked for the homework and found a way to get it to each other. We made sure everyone pitched in for birthdays/anniversaries, and we looked after our teachers.



From what I heard after my graduation, we were the best class there in years. We made Multiculturalism worked, we got along, and there was only one disagreement the entire 9 months. No reason at all why there were so many complaints, other than the fact that someone who worked in the building we used, didn't like certain other cultures.



Our cultural makeup was Russian, Ukranian, Polish, Afghani, Pakistani, Turkish, Kurdish Turk, Thai, Eritrian, Ethiopian, Kenyan, Bulgarian, American (myself) and we sometimes had someone auditing our class that was a supervisor. Our teachers were Italian, Polish and German.



At our old place of residence, there was a fuss over the division of cleaning duty in our shared hallway and parking area. We did our part every week, until one point where I fell ill and I wasn't doing it, but was having to remind my DH to. The complaint wasn't that it wasn't getting done on time or even properly, but that somehow we did not keep up our end of the bargain and were making a ruckus late in the evenings or early mornings. I always asked our bakery neighbor if we were loud due to my having a little one and sometimes needing to vacuum during the odd quiet hours (12-3pm) - and was told no, they never heard us... so I knew who the complaints were really about - our upstairs neighbors.


Then there were complaints about our trash sorting habits (if you don't know how trash is handled here, it's recycling, regular, paper and compost) -- it wasn't us, because I was meticulous about not getting it wrong so no one could complain and so we could fit it in our tiny bins each month. (DH complained I was becoming OCD about it honestly.) Come to find out, it was our neighbors that were the problem. We ended up several times unable to take our trash out due to their trash sorting habits. There was a threat by one of our landlords to hire a maid service - so I decided to take it upon myself to clean the entire hallway when it was our week, and when it was their week.

There are often complaints on Toytown about minor issues and differences in the workplace, rental situations or even about town about those of us ex-pats living in Germany. The biggest complaint is always the WC/Toilets... usu. whether or not it should have a "shelf" or not....[see here for photos] and requests to change them out for more modern toilets if in long term renting situations... That, and the "sitzpinkel" --- the fact everyone uses the WC the same way, sitting down.... (how "feminine" of our men! ^_^)​



As far as our Kindergarten goes, there was a kerfuffle because we have to bring our food. I went through a month of thinking everyone had lost their minds, because I have to bring dishes from the Kita back and forth every day -- I was not allowed to simply bring food in bento boxes to have those used as our dishes, because some parents thought I was trying to treat my child special. I was simply trying to make things easier by keeping his food in one set of containers so it was not easily mixed up with everyone else's food. I already fix the food they're having on their catered menu every day, so the next complaint was that place mats may be "out of order" and that I was making our child ""special"" - until everyone learned of my, and my son's topical reactions. Place mat is a good idea, because it gives him, and the other children a better sense of boundary with their meals. No cross contamination, no sick and ill behaved child. He had no idea until he started kindergarten, that anyone eats any differently than we do, and that he could get sick by eating this/that - I always just made us a version of what everyone else was having and carefully supervised. Once it got sorted, my life was much easier. The complaints were made due to the perceived notion that because I was an American,I was trying to "be different" from everyone else. I wasn't trying - we just are due to having Celiac Disease. The catering company can't make food for our diet. It's just a better idea to have my son there for lunch, so he sees how other people behave at the table, and that everyone eats their food, and that different people have different dietary needs without it being only what "mama says".


As much an argument and stress as that was for almost two months, the big fuss is how wonderfully I make everything, how do I find the time and is it not exhausting? :D I swear - I feel trapped between the best of both worlds sometimes

Amazing testimony---and even more interesting to see how it was experienced by someone who is indeed trapped between two worlds, though I'd argue it is simply a matter of seeing the BEST of BOTH Worlds in regards to how you handled it and were blessed to experience :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Thank God He makes clear elsewhere that obedience to the Law is not salvation!
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Indeed. There is, of course, the dynamic of how obediance to the Law played a part in showing what it took for one to truly have salvation. The entire issue of saying one can keep the Torah often seems to go against what Moses seemed to say cleary in the same book mentioning that his law/Word was not far off that the people would actually fail in keeping it--as seen in Deuteronomy 31 when it came to his predicting Israel's rebellion.

As one Messianic Jewish ministry said best (in excerpt)--noted here in their article entitled Why did Moses write down the Torah? « The Rosh Pina Project ( #258 ):
From Moses’ words in Deuteronomy 31, it is clear that the Torah was not given to the people of Israel to make them feel better about themselves, but instead it was given as a witness against the people as evidence that they were law-breakers.



If as a Messianic Jew you still feel like you should base your identity upon the written words of the Torah, I would suggest that you haven’t fully felt the weight of these commandments upon your shoulders, and you haven’t accepted that these laws could only ever condemn you as a law-breaker.



Even if you were somehow able to observe the majority of the commandments, and thus make your boast in the written Torah, you still have to side-step Moses’ intention for writing down the Torah. The fact still remains that Moses wrote down the Torah as evidence that you are a sinner.


Moses says that if the people of Israel were not faithful to Torah when he was alive, how much less faithful will they be to Torah after his death?


As Messianic Jews, it is entirely right and proper to identify with the people of Israel. As bnei Israel, we must acknowledge that the Torah was given to us as evidence against us and not for us, because we are a sinful people.



The Torah is like a speed camera, or like police CCTV footage – it only exists to catch you out.



As we are all caught out and condemned by the Torah, we should not declare ourselves to be Torah-keepers. Only Moshiach was able to keep Torah, and he kept Torah on our behalf, because of his grace and loving-kindness towards us.


If we can be faithful to Torah outside of Christ, then why did Moshiach take the penalty for breaking Torah upon his shoulders? Or, if we are now faithful to Torah as believers, then why does Moshiach continue to make intercession for us before the throne of God?



Moses uses a kol v’chomer, to make his point. Therefore his argument also works in a reverse application...



If we understand the Prophet (Messiah) is like Moses, then it is clear: We are utterly corrupt when he (Messiah) is not with us (he’s dead to us). Yet when we have Messiah (he’s with us), how much less (reverse the kol v’chomer) we are corrupt, and we WON’T turn aside from the Way which He has commanded us. We may have Messiah and still be rebellious and stiff-necked, yet we won’t turn aside from the Way, and evil won’t befall us by provoking HaShem to anger as we won’t be doing that which is evil in His sight, by the work of our hands.

After all it is within this same passage we read concerning the Torah:
Deuteronomy 32:46
he said unto them: ‘Set your heart unto all the words wherewith I testify against you this day; that ye may charge your children therewith to observe to do all the words of this law.

Deuteronomy 32:47
For it is NO VAIN thing for you; because it is your life, and through this thing ye shall prolong your days upon the land, whither ye go over the Jordan to possess it.’
The Torah is no vain thing, and it is our life (life now as well as eternal life) through which we prolong our days upon the land (the World to Come). For the Torah tells us to obey Messiah, to listen to his voice, and thus have our sins forgiven (Ex 23:20-21)
Exodus 23:20
Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the Way, and to bring thee into the place (temple mount, World to Come) which I have prepared. 21 Take heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; be not rebellious against him; for he will not pardon your transgression; for My name is in him
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If we listen to Messiah, and are not rebellious against him, we will have our sins forgiven, and we will be kept on the Way, all the way to “life” and “prolonged days in the land.”

Torah then, serves to condemn the rebellious, and give eternal life to the one who listens and does not rebel against Messiah (for it is his merit that is credited to us and based on his righteousness alone do we receive his inheritance of eternal life as promised to him by the Torah).






....it would be foolish to disagree that we are not perfect when it comes to Torah keeping, yet Torah by design never intended us to be perfect or else it would not teach teshuvah – repentance that leads eternal life, by the mercy of G-d, or sacrificial atonement in order that we may draw physically near to a holy G-d in these corrupt bodies and not get fried. We are called to judge ourselves in order that we may continue to be aware of the price Messiah paid for our redemption, and live who we are in the world to come, in the now and present of this world. As long as we are like Adam, just as he was when he was alive before he died, our bread, our obedience to Torah will only come by the sweat of our brow, and will be hindered by thorns and thistles.



Yet it is not impossible to obey the command “love the L-rd your G-d…” at even the tiniest level, as we find that this leads to listening to and obeying Messiah, thus having our sins forgiven, and thus living forever in the World to Come with him based on his merit alone.

Yes Torah teaches us that we need mercy, and explains to us that G-d will “have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” I pray we all make teshuvah.
Psalm 119:97-104

97 Oh, how I love Your Torah!
It is my meditation all the day. .

Psalm 119 is a declaration of love of the Torah and its wisdom. The Torah causes rejoicing because it reveals what we are like.



Imagine if you went to the doctor, he ran some tests and he told you you had a life-threatening illness, and then offered you the antidote. You would be thankful to the doctor for running the tests, and grateful for whoever came up with the tests in the first place.



It’s better to know you’re sick and find a cure than to falsely believe you’re well, and the Torah both reveals our maladies and reveals the Great Physician who can heal us.


If the Torah does cause us sorrow, then it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance, repentance which leads to forgiveness, forgiveness which leads to thankfulness, and thankfulness which leads to rejoicing




It’s better to know you’re sick and find a cure than to falsely believe you’re well, and the Torah both reveals our maladies and reveals the Great Physician who can heal us.

If the Torah does cause us sorrow, then it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance, repentance which leads to forgiveness, forgiveness which leads to thankfulness, and thankfulness which leads to rejoicing.
For myself, when it comes to what Peter said about the Law being a Yoke that NO ONE could bear, I try not to make it out as if he couldn't of been mentioning "law" when the entire conversation seemed to be centered around not even trying to get the Gentiles to follow ALL of the Law at any point. I think its best to see that Peter was mentioning how expecting PERFECT Adherence to all aspects of the Law by our merit alone was never the way unto salvation since NO ONE could ever be expected to do that--and those who did so never did it by looking at themselves or their own righteousness. They looked onto the Lord, who ennabled them to be righteous through the system they had available. ...even though it wasn't necessarily the best God had in mind since much of it was temporary until Christ came as a BETTER means of dealing with the curse of sin/unrighteousness than the sacrifical system of atonement was.


Moreover, if one considers how many in scripture may've had messed up lives and yet in their simple faith the Lord justified them/counted them righteous, then one must note that it was never a matter about keeping every jot/tittle of the laws. Rahab the Prostitute would NEVER have known about all facets of the Torah, yet her faith in what little she knew about Israel's God was enough for the Lord to use her/justify her when it came to her saving the spies..as Joshua 2 and James 2 note. The same goes for Abraham, who was justified before keeping anything related to Law because of his faith in the Lord. Many others can be noted besides that, most notably the centurion in Luke 8 who had unlike any in all of Israel and who amazed the Lord.





Its obvious, IMHO, that anytime Torah is twisted, it can become a danger....but within that twisting, there's also the reality that Torah can become twisted when it leaves out the reality of what Christ came to promise----as it concerns differing dynamics that the Torah promised in relation to the new work of Christ...and certain parts of the OT never being intended to be binding for all time. If that wasn't the case, then neither Paul or Peter or James and the rest of the Jewish council would be correct in discussing the Blood of Jesus being shed and alerting others that forgivness needed to be attainted through Jesus that could not be found in adhering to the Torah alone ( Acts 5:30-32 , Acts 3:18-20 , Acts 11:17-19, Acts 20:20-22 , Acts 26:17-19 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:13-15)
Acts 13:37-39
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 13:38-40/ Acts 13
More to come later...I hope
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Gxg (G²)

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It depends what sin. In the case of breaking the Shabbat the punishment is death.

How different would it be today if people were still killed for doing so...though some Messianics may feel that the scriptures note how the Shabbat has altered a bit into something different since the coming of Yeshua and the punishments have altered from what occurred in the OT (as seen here and here and here and here).
 
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".

As much an argument and stress as that was for almost two months, the big fuss is how wonderfully I make everything, how do I find the time and is it not exhausting? :D I swear - I feel trapped between the best of both worlds sometimes.

Even with feeling trapped between two worlds, at least there's the desire to explore a world that's different than your own.....for that's something not many will ever be willing to do, just as it may be the case that someone grows up in a religious context and never dares to explore/understand how things operate in the context of other religious thought around them...and have understanding.
 
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David Ben Yosef

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The only scholars worth listening to, and who have done real studies are from mainstream MJism. The outsiders are rarely worth a pinch of salt in their scholarship. I'll take Jacob Prasch, Arnold Fructenbaum, David Stern, Alfred Edersheim and a whole array of similar names over the fringe element any day.
Alfred Edersheim died loooong before anything like the Messianic Judaism movement even existed. Therefore, he cannot possibly be "from mainstream MJism."

I also find it ironic that all those scholars whom you listed, who [you claim] have done "real studies" generally agree with your own theology. How fortunate that must be for you that all legitimate scholars generally agree with you. ^_^

I feel that you have been subjected to a lot of prejudice here on this little forum. What you learned from this forum about your identity as a MJ is a lie, perpetuated by Gentiles, I believe. Thanks to this forum and what I have learned about non-Jews trying to be Jewish, I am beginning to resent my Jewish upbringing and the bigotry it taught me.
Strange indeed. If this is how you truly feel about this forum and it's members, it begs the question....why are you still here? :doh:
 
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ContraMundum

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Alfred Edersheim died loooong before anything like the Messianic Judaism movement even existed. Therefore, he cannot possibly be "from mainstream MJism."

Your opinion. Noted.

I also find it ironic that all those scholars whom you listed, who [you claim] have done "real studies" generally agree with your own theology. How fortunate that must be for you that all legitimate scholars generally agree with you. ^_^
I agree with them.

Strange indeed. If this is how you truly feel about this forum and it's members, it begs the question....why are you still here? :doh:
Why do you disappear for weeks on end, then come back and snipe me, and only me? Personal I think. Interesting agenda and way to spend your spare time- seeking out people to fight with.

Opinion and post discarded.
 
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