Defending the truth of Jesus

Jane_the_Bane

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Is it possible you never met G-d? Is it possible you only contacted your own thoughts?
Do you see the problem with this line of questioning?

A deconvert who no longer believes in God will definitely conclude that former experiences were indeed just (auto-)suggestions - and those who are still part of that scene then conclude that, oh well, perhaps that's true for the deconvert, but not for THEM. "Obviously", the deconvert never knew God to begin with.

It's a way of cheapening the deconvert's experiences, understandable as it may be from the POV of those who want to sustain their own faith.

I, for one, do not doubt for ONE second that most deconverts who affirm that they were once ardent believers were exactly that, and in no way different from those who are still part of the group now.
 
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Merlinius

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Merlinius, you seem to be missing the main point I was seeking to make.

Perhaps it would be best to quote a few words of Thomas Merton.........

If I insist on giving you my truth, and never stop to receive your truth in return, then there can be no truth between us. Christ is present "where two or three are gathered in my name." But to be gathered in the name of Christ is to be gathered in the name of the Word made flesh, of God made man. It is therefore to be gathered in the faith that God has become man and can be seen in man, that he can speak in man and that he can enlighten and inspre love in and through any man I meet. It is true that the visible Church alone has the official mission to sanctify all nations, but no man knows that the stranger he meets coming out of the forest in a new country is not already an invisible member of Christ and perhaps one who has some providential or prophetic message to utter.

It is just not the case of us and them, however "true" we consider "us" to be.

(At least, such is how a true Pure Lander sees it........)

Followers of Jeus Christ the Messiah = saved, redeemed, saints, Sons of God, Alive forever.

Those who choose not to follow Christ = lost, deluded, unenlightened, sons of perdition, dead.

If Thomas Merton agrees with this then he is in truth and wisdom. If not, he is a false prophet and will lead his blind followers into the ditch along with him.

Christianity is a process by which God lays open the hearts to the very core. The truth is received joyfully by some, but others kick and scream against Him all the way, substituting philosphy and false teachers instead of Christ and His Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

This makes it a very black and white dichotomy by which we can have clear sight to choose life or death.

I choose life. And I choose to share that life of Christ with those willing to receive it. It is always an incredible joy to find that 'lost sheep' who is looking for His Master. Because we can hand that sheep the light to find the way, and that light is Jesus, and we give Him to others to know by preaching. Whether it be door to door or by internet or whatever.

May all choose Jesus and His Life!

In His Love,
Merlin
 
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JGG

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Followers of Jeus Christ the Messiah = saved, redeemed, saints, Sons of God, Alive forever.

Those who choose not to follow Christ = lost, deluded, unenlightened, sons of perdition, dead.

So in summary:

Christians = Positive adjectives.
Non-Christians = Negative adjectives.

If Thomas Merton agrees with this then he is in truth and wisdom. If not, he is a false prophet and will lead his blind followers into the ditch along with him.

In summary:

People who agree with you are brilliant philosophers who deserve reverence.
People who disagree with you are moronic imbeciles who deserve scorn.

Ultimately, you don't really expect me to believe in God. You expect me to believe in you.
 
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Merlinius

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So in summary:

Christians = Positive adjectives.
Non-Christians = Negative adjectives.



In summary:

People who agree with you are brilliant philosophers who deserve reverence.
People who disagree with you are moronic imbeciles who deserve scorn.

Ultimately, you don't really expect me to believe in God. You expect me to believe in you.

Nice re-wording job. Do you have any idea what that makes you look like doing that?

But no, nothing of it is about me and no I'm not looking for you to believe what I say, I don't care whether you do or not, honestly. Nothing of any I've shared is about me, only Jesus. No philosophy or brilliance or deserving of reverence or mononic imbeciles deserving scorn lol! Nothing of that is to do with me. That is your world, not mine. You said it. Not me.

Just do what you do, be who you are, and fulfill your destiny. Good or evil. The choice who to be is right there. Either way you go doesn't affect me. Be either a total servant to righteousness, or a total servant to wickedness. The free choice is yours. Just be sure to not be wishy washy about it. Hate toward Christians is good for Christians :)
It makes us more loving and forgiving to those who make themselves the enemies of Christ. I'll honor whatever path you are attracted to go down and help you along it in either case :)

Blessings in His Love!
Merlin
 
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JGG

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Nice re-wording job. Do you have any idea what that makes you look like doing that?

It makes it look like I cut to the point?

Re-read your post, and tell me what part of my summations are wrong, and how you might have rephrased your initial claim to make your point clearer.

But no, nothing of it is about me and no I'm not looking for you to believe what I say, I don't care whether you do or not, honestly. Nothing of any I've shared is about me, only Jesus.

No, it's not about Jesus at all. It's about Followers of Christ (you), and Those who do not Follow Christ (everyone else). You then continue on to say if person x agree with you, then he is brilliant. If person x disagrees with you, he's worthless. It's about people who agree with you, and people who don't.

Re-read it and tell me where I'm wrong.
 
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oi_antz

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I get this kind of thing a lot when I say I used to be a Christian. The nutshell reply is "oh you weren't a real Christian". I was. I believed in God, I believed in the risen, resurrected and soon-to-return™ Jesus. I spoke in tongues, I prophesied, I got "lost in the Spirit", etc. Yet because I didn't hear voices I must not have been a Christian. I spent years seeking God, I studied the Bible, listened to sermons online, bought teaching tapes, prayed in tongues for hours on many occasions. You must be one of those Christians who follow the "once saved, always saved" rule. Well, I was a genuine Christian, now I'm an atheist.

Also, I've been through practically every denomination I care to - from Baptists all the way to Pentecostals and Word Of Faith and everything in between (including Episcopal and Catholic). One interesting thing, now that I think about it, and in answer to your speculation that I wasn't a genuine Christian, is that I had a lot of prophecies said over me during my Pentecostal/Charismatic days. Now, if I wasn't a real Christian and those prophesying over me were actually speaking the words of God, then why didn't God tell me I was fake? That never happened. Instead I got stupid prophecies about my future and junk like that. None of it came true. None of the prophecies over my parents came true either. My mum still utters prophecies every so often, which all fail. My dad has gotten a bit cynical over the years though. Someone recently had a prophecy for him, which my mum got excited about, but my dad just brushed it off afterwards and said he doesn't really believe all that stuff anymore. I think he's finally floating down from the Charismatic clouds.

When I started having doubts about the Charismatic/Word of Faith movement I was fortunate enough to stumble across a good book called "Post-charismatic". I was still a Christian around the time I read it, but was severely disillusioned with the Charismatic/Word of Faith movement.

Christians are far too quick to judge those who were once Christians but "left the fold". They see it as impossible why someone could go from believing to not believing. I would speculate that most "hardcore" atheists (or anti-theists if you prefer) alive today in Western countries were once hardcore theists/Christians. A lot of them give up their faith because of the behaviour of other Christians, or their disillusionment with their faith. I'm a combination of the two. I was disillusioned with both the church/Christian behaviour and fed up of a faith that seemed so full of promise yet accomplished nothing.

Anyway, I've rambled on a bit, more than I intended. I really just wanted to address those who have the belief that those who abandon the Christian faith weren't Christians in the first place. It is possible to be a real Christian and then become an atheist. I read stories on it all the time. There's even a forum on the internet dedicated to ex-Christians and the stories are usually all the same. I'm not sure why some Christians believe that ex-Christians were never Christians in the first place - it must touch a nerve I guess, perhaps because they struggle with doubts of their own and fear that if they acknowledge those doubts they might fall away.

No GOM, what I said and what you have confessed twice now, is that you failed to have a real experience with God. You can call yourself Christian if you like, you can imitate Christian behavior and thought, but if you don't have a real relationship with Jesus Christ (as you have said yourself), then you really did not experience Christianity properly. Furthermore if you are hanging around with false prophets then you are not hanging around genuine Christianity to begin with. I too experienced faith and fell away from it, when I was baptized at 17 then gradually moved away from faith I became anti-Christian. Severely anti-Christian. Then when Jesus drew me back and I actually had the reality of God in my life I became Christian in a way that gives me irrevocable faith. You can have that too, but it would require that you actually seek it from God and not from your peers. My landlord joked the other day that I'm a freelance Christian because I go round different churches, I would rather be thought of as a 'free' Christian ;) Perhaps you would benefit from analyzing what you don't like about Christianity, analyzing what your heart really says God should be, and then ask God to show you His true nature. Jesus is a good guy you know, He's not one who says "bomb abortion clinics and shoot gays", and He doesn't say that sick people only need faith. In fact He said the sick need a doctor. See:
Matthew 9:12
When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.”
Matthew 9:11-13 (in Context) Matthew 9 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard this, he told them, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”
Mark 2:16-18 (in Context) Mark 2 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 5:31
Jesus answered them, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.
I would encourage you to get out and experience more variety of Christianity and keep your mind open to the possibility that not everyone is so deluded as the ones you find objectionable.
 
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oi_antz

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You're aware that these people have publically suggested killing atheists, yes? What these people think, and are taught about me, is very important.

I shouldn't have to be a closet atheist, nor should I have to worry about being physically assaulted while going about my business, simply because I don't believe in God. Nor should I be looked down upon as a human being because I don't believe.

But that's the world I live in. There's no reason that I should be content with that.

Yes, and what I have still not been told despite having asked three times is how do these people get qualified to teach such contention in the first place. I don't believe you can blame Christianity for it, it is clearly the work of the devil.
 
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razeontherock

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Yay! I finally found a difference in our experiences:

You can't be a Charismatic for long before you hear a false prophecy. This is not right!

I never heard a false Prophecy. Then again I avoid TV like the plague ^_^
I do remember one time a whole Church was very upset with one woman who had been prominent in the Church, because what she spoke did not come to pass. Details about some certain name of some unknown person, who would be involved with someone known in the congregation in a very specific way. Said person indeed got involved with someone by that name, but NONE of the details were anything remotely like what had been spoken. Years passed. Then everything that had been Prophesied was right there in plain daylight, but nobody remembered.

Yeah it was awkward, being the one who had to point this out. As anyone familiar with me here will attest, I'm used to that ...
 
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razeontherock

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Do you see the problem with this line of questioning?

A deconvert who no longer believes in God will definitely conclude that former experiences were indeed just (auto-)suggestions

Perhaps. I tend to see life in shades of more than just black white and grey though.

"Obviously", the deconvert never knew God to begin with.

Except I haven't said that. Ever. Aka, see above.

It's a way of cheapening the deconvert's experiences, understandable as it may be from the POV of those who want to sustain their own faith.

Actually, I asked a question, which does none of those things; however, if the person I asked the question of were to read this and take it to heart, it could cheapen the experience of pondering the question for him. (Not to mention how it might dilute any results it might yield)

I, for one, do not doubt for ONE second that most deconverts who affirm that they were once ardent believers were exactly that, and in no way different from those who are still part of the group now.

I not only doubt, but vehemently deny, that it is even remotely possible that any two individuals are in no way different.
 
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Merlinius

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It makes it look like I cut to the point?

Re-read your post, and tell me what part of my summations are wrong, and how you might have rephrased your initial claim to make your point clearer.



No, it's not about Jesus at all. It's about Followers of Christ (you), and Those who do not Follow Christ (everyone else). You then continue on to say if person x agree with you, then he is brilliant. If person x disagrees with you, he's worthless. It's about people who agree with you, and people who don't.

Re-read it and tell me where I'm wrong.

You are fulfilling your destiny perfectly! You are right in your own eyes, what more do you need? I think that is just great for you. I'm happy for you in fact :)
You've made your choice how to rearrange things to suit your intentions, whatever they are. I support you in your choice like I said I would.
Go for it my friend!
If you truly wanted to know exactly what I meant though, just read exactly what I said.
I will respond if so.
Otherwise, I'm going to look for an ignore button or a fly swatter somewhere lol.
 
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JGG

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Yes, and what I have still not been told despite having asked three times is how do these people get qualified to teach such contention in the first place.

How is anyone objectively qualified to teach about God? How is any one person more qualified to talk about God than any other person?

I don't believe you can blame Christianity for it, it is clearly the work of the devil.

Perhaps I can't blame Christ. I don't see why I can't blame Christianity.
 
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JGG

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You are fulfilling your destiny perfectly! You are right in your own eyes, what more do you need? I think that is just great for you. I'm happy for you in fact :)
You've made your choice how to rearrange things to suit your intentions, whatever they are. I support you in your choice like I said I would.
Go for it my friend!
If you truly wanted to know exactly what I meant though, just read exactly what I said.
I will respond if so.
Otherwise, I'm going to look for an ignore button or a fly swatter somewhere lol.

No, I know what you meant. You referring to the general superiority of Christians compared to non-Christians. I'm very familiar with the concept. Christians = good. Everyone else = bad.

Anyway, I would recommend the ignore button. Here, I'll help you find it:

Go to my name, click on it, and go to my profile. Find "User Lists" and click, then click on ignore.

Easy as pie.
 
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razeontherock

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Merlinius

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No, I know what you meant. You referring to the general superiority of Christians compared to non-Christians. I'm very familiar with the concept. Christians = good. Everyone else = bad.

Anyway, I would recommend the ignore button. Here, I'll help you find it:

Go to my name, click on it, and go to my profile. Find "User Lists" and click, then click on ignore.

Easy as pie.

lol. There again, no I didn't say that. I said what I meant and meant what I said and only you want it to read different to satisfy your gall of bitterness evidently.
Thanks for the ignore button steps
Cheers
 
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oi_antz

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How is anyone objectively qualified to teach about God? How is any one person more qualified to talk about God than any other person?
Ray said "annointing", I couldn't have said it better.
Perhaps I can't blame Christ. I don't see why I can't blame Christianity.
Because you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Throw out the bath water, do what I do and don't give them the attention they are seeking. Cherish the baby, because that is the treasure.
 
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JGG

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Ray said "annointing", I couldn't have said it better.

Perhaps you can define how anointing is objective? How is one anointed? How does one objectively know that someone should been anointed? How does one objectively know that someone has been anointed? It seems to me that Jesus was not "anointed" until a week before His crucifixion. Was He not qualified to teach about God prior to that?

Because you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Throw out the bath water, do what I do and don't give them the attention they are seeking. Cherish the baby, because that is the treasure.

Allow me to remind you, I don't have a belief in Christ to throw out.

Let me explain why I feel I can blame Christianity:

These people, whether you agree or not, are Christians. Whether nominally, or actually, they are Christians. I can certainly blame them for wanting to kill me. On the other hand, the rest of Christianity is content to sit back and let it happen. They are not prepared to stand up to them, on our behalf. Classic "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" scenario. If Christianity is not part of the problem, what is it's role?

Like I said, I cannot blame Christ (indeed I can't say I actually believe in Christ), however, I can see how I can blame those who claim to follow Christ. Perhaps there is another reason.
 
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Hakan101

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Allow me to remind you, I don't have a belief in Christ to throw out.

Let me explain why I feel I can blame Christianity:

These people, whether you agree or not, are Christians. Whether nominally, or actually, they are Christians. I can certainly blame them for wanting to kill me. On the other hand, the rest of Christianity is content to sit back and let it happen. They are not prepared to stand up to them, on our behalf. Classic "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" scenario. If Christianity is not part of the problem, what is it's role?

Like I said, I cannot blame Christ (indeed I can't say I actually believe in Christ), however, I can see how I can blame those who claim to follow Christ. Perhaps there is another reason.

You've got your words confused. You mean to blame Christians, not Christianity. You're blaming the believers, not the belief. You're blaming those who are not being true to their faith.

I hope.
 
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T

Tariki

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Followers of Jeus Christ the Messiah = saved, redeemed, saints, Sons of God, Alive forever.

Those who choose not to follow Christ = lost, deluded, unenlightened, sons of perdition, dead.

If Thomas Merton agrees with this then he is in truth and wisdom. If not, he is a false prophet and will lead his blind followers into the ditch along with him.

Christianity is a process by which God lays open the hearts to the very core. The truth is received joyfully by some, but others kick and scream against Him all the way, substituting philosphy and false teachers instead of Christ and His Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

This makes it a very black and white dichotomy by which we can have clear sight to choose life or death.

I choose life. And I choose to share that life of Christ with those willing to receive it. It is always an incredible joy to find that 'lost sheep' who is looking for His Master. Because we can hand that sheep the light to find the way, and that light is Jesus, and we give Him to others to know by preaching. Whether it be door to door or by internet or whatever.

May all choose Jesus and His Life!

In His Love,
Merlin

From a Pure Land perspective, your "choosing" - as you relate to it - was a self power act, and therefore null and void.

We are chosen. I did run a thread on "free will", but never mind...........

:)
 
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JGG

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You've got your words confused. You mean to blame Christians, not Christianity. You're blaming the believers, not the belief. You're blaming those who are not being true to their faith.

I hope.

Well yes. Christianity also refers to the group of people who share this belief. In essence, Christians as a collective.
 
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