Once Saved Always Saved?

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Avelina777

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Hi Kutte,

I believe that Judas himself is totally responsible for his actions. Not any other person. The term "devil" is simply the description of that person's decision. Nothing more. Judas, of his entire free will chose to do what he did. Any other idea mocks God. For God Himself totally blamed Judas. Not someone else.

(Mar 14:21)The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

(Joh 13:27) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Jesus was speaking to the man Judas who became satan in his decision. "Adversary". That is what the word "satan" means. Jesus blamed Judas. Not someone else.

Blessings


Amen that is totally correct :amen:
 
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Avelina777

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I’m once saved always saved… that’s what the bible teaches and that is exactly what God did for me… saved at age nine, over 40 years ago… I can assure you that God won’t lose you along the way… do not throw away your confidence in the blood of Jesus….


Not going to thank you!! God Bless!! :):)
 
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dewba

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John 13:2
During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Proverbs 16:9
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
 
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Avelina777

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All I can say is there is no doctrine to support once saved always saved. Most people (not accusing anyone here) use it so they can sin over and over with no repentance. I would never gamble with my soul and I don't think anyone should (not saying anyone here is.) Just a statement. God Bless :)
 
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dewba

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There was no possible way for Judas to not betray Jesus. It was meant to be; it was one of Judas' purposes..it definitely wasn't up to Judas, as some say...

Matthew 26:21
"The truth is, one of you will betray me"

Matthew 26:23
For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”


Jesus knew the pain that Judas was going to feel...he felt sympathy.
but God didn't make it possible for it not to go down that way...

Matthew 26:39
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
 
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Avelina777

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There was no possible way for Judas to not betray Jesus. It was meant to be; it was one of Judas' purposes..

Matthew 26:23
For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”


Jesus knew the pain that Judas was going to feel...he felt sympathy.
God didn't make it possible for it not to go down that way...

Matthew 26:39
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

That is putting God in a box don't yah think?? Judas could have easily fought off satan and kept away from what he did. God would have found another way for them to find Jesus. Also Judas could have repented afterwards but he did not and do not tell me suicide is repentance because it is not. Jesus felt sympathy for the roman soldiers by the cross what is your point He is all loving. There is no scripture to back up once saved always saved, but I don't want to fight you all night. It just saddens me that people use this to get away with bad things all the time (not saying you do.) God Bless!!
 
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Lindas Place

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No Publius,
It doesn't "take just one sin to fall away".
All sins are forgivable except the ultimate betrayal of crucifying Christ again in our lives without remorse. Then there is no path left for forgiveness, because there is no repentance.
There are examples of this in scripture, so we know that "eternal security" as a doctrine is ineffectual.

All in all, I'd say from what I'm reading that everyone really actually agrees here, at least on the basics, that "Christ saves".

But Judas is a prime example of someone "saved" by Christ, who sold his soul at the end. It can't be denied. A sad state indeed.
Such people as the "son of perdition" exist. They cave in at some point because there was no underlying root within themselves. Consider the parable of the sower and that can't be denied.
Most times, the person was a "tare" all along and never was "saved" and other folk then get all warped out in attempting to apply that to their "eternal security" doctrine lol.
Get rid of the man-made doctrine itself, and then there is no problem :)

I remember hanging with these baptist guys who wanted to go get laid. That didn't sound right to me as a young Christian, but there reply was, "it's ok, Jesus forgives you!"

Well, that is the danger of preaching a man made doctrine of eternal security. It turns people into confused mis-lead sinners who think that whatever they do is "forgivable", even to the seventy times seven degree.

Avelina has it most correct here though. You others just need to look a little closer at what she is writing :)

Blessings all
Let's look at the book of John to see if Judas believed.... and when the disciples believed...


Judas had already left to betray Jesus (John 13:30)

If the disciples obey; the Holy Spirit will be with them FOREVER (John 14:16)
Jesus promises not to leave the disciples as orphans (John 14:18)
The disciples must (believe) in Jesus; the true vine. (John 15:1)
The disciples must remained in Jesus and His Word (John 15:7)
Jesus will send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26)
Jesus tells the disciples it is for their good that He going is away (John 16:7)
Jesus tells the disciples He will send the Holy Spirit (John 16:7)

The disciples believed at last! (John 16:31)
John 16
31 “You believe at last!” Jesus answered.

The disciples had obeyed the word (John 17:6-7)

Jesus was crucified (John 19)
Jesus was resurrected (John 20:1)

The disciples received the Holy Spirit, FOREVER (John 20:22.)
 
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Publius

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Avelina777 said:
There is no scripture to back up once saved always saved.


Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling. If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

Colosians 3:1-4 promises that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed. If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

Galatians 2:20 says that we have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. How can Christ abandon Himself?
 
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I believe that once we are truly saved we are saved. As my old Grandmother used to say once God gives a gift it is your forever. Many people are confused about what is truly involved in being saved. Are you truly sold out to the Lord, if not then no you are not truly saved. Have seen people who were in the ministry and anyone would say they were great Christians but then they fall away. Were they saved or just living a life style they thought they wanted? There are some questions only the Lord knows the answer to but I will always believe "Once saved always saved".
 
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Are you sure he was truly a believer? Many think he was there because of money and power that he thought would come when Jesus became King. Many at that time did not understand the idea that he had to die and come back. They thought he would overthrow the Romans and restore the former glory that had been Israel in the past.
 
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Avelina777

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Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling. If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

Colosians 3:1-4 promises that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed. If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

Galatians 2:20 says that we have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. How can Christ abandon Himself?


No offense but your throwing a bunch of scripture together and not making sense to back up that belief. I'm sorry. I guess we could all bicker about this all night, we have to realize that some of us won't agree on certain subjects and that is that. God Bless!!
 
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Merlinius

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Hello everybody.

This is what Avelina is talking about. And nobody can say the subjects of these scriptures following "weren't saved in the first place". These are people who "escaped the pollution of the world through Christ, then became entangled therein again". Which can't be said any clearer lol.

There is no such thing as a doctrine of "once saved always saved" taught in scripture. These scriptures clear up any doubt. Please read;

(2Pe 2:15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(2Pe 2:16) But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
(2Pe 2:17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(2Pe 2:18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(2Pe 2:19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(2Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(2Pe 2:22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This in no wise threatens any individuals' conviction of their salvation in the Power of Christ (which I profess of myself). It simply establishes that many HAVE and others CAN. That is all :)

Blessings in Christ and stay firm in Him!
Merlin
 
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Avelina777

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King David, the man after God’s own heart, a murderer and adulterer will be there…


How in the world could you compare King David to Hitler, etc. You have to remember King David repented all the time!!! And remember King David paid for his mistakes, God punished him. Please do me a favor and never compare those two it personally is offensive.
 
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No offense but your throwing a bunch of scripture together and not making sense to back up that belief.

Which of the verses do you feel don't make sense?

I'm sorry. I guess we could all bicker about this all night

As far as I know, we're not bickering. I'm just showing you that the Bible clearly supports the doctrine of eternal security and consistently affirms Christ's competency to keep those whom the Father has given Him, competency to keep us from falling, that we are born of incorruptable seed, that we no longer live but Christ lives within us, and that no less an authority on the matter than Jesus Christ, Himself, has promised us that we cannot lose our salvation.

we have to realize that some of us won't agree on certain subjects and that is that.

To be sure. I'm just showing you what the Bible says and asking you to consider the terrible consequences of denying the Biblical doctrine of eternal security and Christ's competency to keep those the Father has given Him and to keep us from falling.
 
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Avelina777

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Hello everybody.

This is what Avelina is talking about. And nobody can say the subjects of these scriptures following "weren't saved in the first place". These are people who "escaped the pollution of the world through Christ, then became entangled therein again". Which can't be said any clearer lol.

There is no such thing as a doctrine of "once saved always saved" taught in scripture. These scriptures clear up any doubt. Please read;

(2Pe 2:15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(2Pe 2:16) But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
(2Pe 2:17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(2Pe 2:18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(2Pe 2:19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(2Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(2Pe 2:22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This in no wise threatens any individuals' conviction of their salvation in the Power of Christ (which I profess of myself). It simply establishes that many HAVE and others CAN. That is all :)

Blessings in Christ and stay firm in Him!
Merlin


Amen brother :amen:. Beautifully put!!
 
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dewba

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That is putting God in a box don't yah think?? Judas could have easily fought off satan and kept away from what he did. God would have found another way for them to find Jesus. Also Judas could have repented afterwards but he did not and do not tell me suicide is repentance because it is not. Jesus felt sympathy for the roman soldiers by the cross what is your point He is all loving. There is no scripture to back up once saved always saved, but I don't want to fight you all night. It just saddens me that people use this to get away with bad things all the time (not saying you do.) God Bless!!

Matthew 26:21
"The truth is, one of you will betray me"

Jesus said "WILL;" He didn't say "may betray me." He said "will." And Jesus spoke with authority, of course, so there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that "will" meant "will. no doubt about it. no possible way around it." saying that Judas could have easily fought off Satan, etc, is calling Jesus a liar and I know you have the possibility of being better than that. You cannot tell me that "will" means anything other than "will."

We're not talking about Judas' suicide. We're talking about the betrayal...
I certainly do not go around telling people that suicide is repentence; that's mean.

Also, there is scripture that says once saved always saved!! I'm wondering if you read my first post in here...
 
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Avelina777

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Which of the verses do you feel don't make sense?



As far as I know, we're not bickering. I'm just showing you that the Bible clearly supports the doctrine of eternal security and consistently affirms Christ's competency to keep those whom the Father has given Him, competency to keep us from falling, that we are born of incorruptable seed, that we no longer live but Christ lives within us, and that no less an authority on the matter than Jesus Christ, Himself, has promised us that we cannot lose our salvation.



To be sure. I'm just showing you what the Bible says and asking you to consider the terrible consequences of denying the Biblical doctrine of eternal security and Christ's competency to keep those the Father has given Him and to keep us from falling.


It is a bit of bickering since we are going back and forth and getting no where. I do not and will not ever believe once saved always saved. That is it. The Bible proves it, see Merlins post. I believe that if you have the holy spirit and are truly living the Christian life you cannot fall that far away. But the road is very narrow to heaven which means these Christians are few and far between. (not speaking of anyone in particular) God Bless!!
 
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Hello everybody.

This is what Avelina is talking about. And nobody can say the subjects of these scriptures following "weren't saved in the first place". These are people who "escaped the pollution of the world through Christ, then became entangled therein again". Which can't be said any clearer lol.

There is no such thing as a doctrine of "once saved always saved" taught in scripture. These scriptures clear up any doubt. Please read;

(2Pe 2:15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(2Pe 2:16) But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
(2Pe 2:17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(2Pe 2:18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(2Pe 2:19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(2Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(2Pe 2:22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This in no wise threatens any individuals' conviction of their salvation in the Power of Christ (which I profess of myself). It simply establishes that many HAVE and others CAN. That is all :)

Blessings in Christ and stay firm in Him!
Merlin

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but you started quoting from v 15, when the passage actually begins at v 1.

Please note vv 1-2, which say "1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. "

False prophets, false teachers, denying the Master who bought them, and the many who follow their sensuality, blaspheming the way of truth in the process.

Does that really sound like a description of born again individuals?

Avelina777 said:
I do not and will not ever believe once saved always saved.

OK. That is certainly your right. I just wanted you to see a small portion of the verses that show that it is Biblical.

The Bible proves it, see Merlins post.

I assume you mean "disproves it", since you've been arguing against it.

You say Merlin's post proves it, but the problem with that is that Merlin did not post the entire passage. In fact, he left out some very crucial verses that show that Peter was talking about false teachers, false prophets, and those who follow them, not born again believers.

There is no point in continuing this, you won't open your mind a centimeter to what I am saying.

And yet, when I show you more than a dozen verses supporting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you still say "I do not and will not ever believe in once saved always saved".

How is that any less closed minded than what you're accusing dewba of?
 
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