Melchizedek was not a Christophany

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

I have always retreated back to the position that Melchizedek was a real historical person for various reasons. Don't get me wrong, he was certainly a type of Christ. However, I ran into an interesting piece of commentary on Hebrews 7 that made this issue even clearer to me.

In Hebrews 7, the author is comparing Melchizedek's priesthood with that of Jesus'. However, since the writer is drawing an analogy between the two it appears he regards both as historical figures. If Melchizedek was a Christophany then the author of Hebrews would be comparing the Son with the Son.

This would not be an analogy.

Sieben · Nov 5, 2011

Yep!

Melchizedek is Not the Son

Sophrosyne · Nov 5, 2011

Melchizedek
I once read somewhere that Jesus had to be baptized in order to complete the ceremony to be our high priest (order of Melchizedek).

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

Another thing that is interesting is that Melchizedek held two earthly offices. He was king and priest of a real terrestrial city - Salem. Throughout Scripture when we encounter a Christophany (or theophany) they never hold a specific office here on earth.

Assyrian · Nov 5, 2011

Nice to agree with you here Jig

Frogster · Nov 5, 2011

It says Mel was not mortal.

7;8In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on.

Frogster · Nov 5, 2011

The whole point was, that Jesus did not have an earthly ministry, so his priesthood could not be off an earthly man.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
Another thing that is interesting is that Melchizedek held two earthly offices. He was king and priest of a real terrestrial city - Salem. Throughout Scripture when we encounter a Christophany (or theophany) they never hold a specific office here on earth.

I would loved to have be Abraham back then

Hebrews 7:1 For thus/this the Malkiy-Tsedeq King of Salem, Priest of the God/'El of the most-high, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings and blesses him
[Genesis 14:18/Matt 26:26]
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, and being made like to the Son of God, doth remain a priest continually.
4 And see how great this one [is], to whom also a tenth Abraham the patriarch did give out of the best of the spoils,

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.
The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,

In the Genesis story Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure. He flashes across the scene like a meteor. There is no heralding of his appearance, nor any mention of its results. He arrives out of the blue; there is no account of his family; there is nothing about his birth, his descent, his life, his work, or his death. He simply arrives.

Tyndale · Nov 5, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
[Genesis 14:18/Matt 26:26]
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, and being made like to the Son of God, doth remain a priest continually.
4 And see how great this one [is], to whom also a tenth Abraham the patriarch did give out of the best of the spoils, .

I would suggest that there were other types of Christ (just like Melchizedek), even before Abrahams time. The tree of life in the Garden of Eden may be another example, yet Adam and Eve choose the wrong path, just like some Hebrews in Abrahams time........I wonder if there are any more types of Christ between Abraham and Christ, during the time of Israel/Judah?.....where they didn't have to pay a tenth to the priesthood of Aaron.

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

Frogster said:
It says Mel was not mortal.

7;8In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on.

So far as the record of Scripture is concerned, Melchizedek has no end of life and his unique priesthood has no successor. But what is true of Melchizedek in a limited and literary sense is true absolutely of the one who serves his people as high priest in the presence of God - Jesus.

There is no doubt that the author of Hebrews was comparing Jesus and Melchizedek. The analogy made is crystal clear. However, this would be impossible if the two people were the same. You can't compare Jesus to Jesus.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
I have always retreated back to the position that Melchizedek was a real historical person for various reasons. Don't get me wrong, he was certainly a type of Christ. However, I ran into an interesting piece of commentary on Hebrews 7 that made this issue even clearer to me.

In Hebrews 7, the author is comparing Melchizedek's priesthood with that of Jesus'. However, since the writer is drawing an analogy between the two it appears he regards both as historical figures. If Melchizedek was a Christophany then the author of Hebrews would be comparing the Son with the Son.

This would not be an analogy.

The word used in Hebrews shows that Melchi was left nameless in the Torah so as to "morph" him into a type of the Son of Man who was to come and be Firstborn, High King and High Priest of the earth He ransoms for Himself, and who never dies, as the Everlasting Father of the New Man creation.

But in the Book of Jasher, we are told that it is Shem, who was a priest of the Most High God, dwelling in Jerusalem =Mount Moriah, and we also learn that Abraham learned from Noah and Shem while he lived with them for 39 years, in Mount Moriah, leaving them only after the tower of Babel fell to return to his father's house.

The priesthood of Shem came down from Adam, and is the Patriarchal priesthood of nations and families established in the beginning, but all the patriarchs died and none ascended to the throne in heaven made for the Son of Man.
Jesus, as Everlasting Father, never dies, and He ransoms the earth back, and is the Firstborn of it, and sits on the throne of the Firstborn of earth, in heaven -particularly, in Mount Eden in heaven where Adam got cast down and out of, in ruin and shame as a stripped of the glory, son of God.

Shem passed that blessing of priesthood to Abraham, that day, and in Jacob's sons it was passed to Levi -the priesthood- and to Judah, eventually -the king's office.

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

yeshuasavedme said:
The word used in Hebrews shows that Melchi was left nameless in the Torah so as to "morph" him into a type of the Son of Man who was to come and be Firstborn, High King and High Priest of the earth He ransoms for Himself, and who never dies, as the Everlasting Father of the New Man creation.

But in the Book of Jasher, we are told that it is Shem, who was a priest of the Most High God, dwelling in Jerusalem =Mount Moriah, and we also learn that Abraham learned from Noah and Shem while he lived with them for 39 years, in Mount Moriah, leaving them only after the tower of Babel fell to return to his father's house.

The priesthood of Shem came down from Adam, and is the Patriarchal priesthood of nations and families established in the beginning, but all the patriarchs died and none ascended to the throne in heaven made for the Son of Man.
Jesus, as Everlasting Father, never dies, and He ransoms the earth back, and is the Firstborn of it, and sits on the throne of the Firstborn of earth, in heaven -particularly, in Mount Eden in heaven where Adam got cast down and out of, in ruin and shame as a stripped of the glory, son of God.

Shem passed that blessing of priesthood to Abraham, that day, and in Jacob's sons it was passed to Levi -the priesthood- and to Judah, eventually -the king's office.

I have always thought this theory was by far the most interesting. I own many books that discuss this possibility. I thought I would share some quotes.

"There is an ancient Hebrew tradition, which of course would not have been affected by the passage in the Book of Hebrews, that Melchizedek was actually the patriarch Shem, still alive during Abrams day. Assuming there are no gaps in the genealogies of Genesis 11, Shem would have lived until thirty-five years after Abrahams death, so that this would be possible. The name Melchizedek would, in this case, be regarded as a title rather than as an actual name. It does not seem unreasonable to imagine that, after the Dispersion at Babel, Shem might have moved, under divine guidance, to the place where God would one day establish His temple. As the custodian of the patriarchal records, he could then have transmitted them to Isaac after Abrahams death. This would also help explain why there was no document entitled the generations of Abraham. Terah, according to Genesis 11:32, continued to live in Haran for sixty years after Abram had left for Canaan, and therefore also was still alive at this time. Isaac was thirty-five years old when Terah died and forty-five when Shem died, again assuming no gaps in the genealogies."

Henry M. Morris, The Genesis Record : A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the Book of Beginnings (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1976), 320.

"Both the second-century Aramaic Targum Neofiti and the Fragment Targum identify Melchizedek with Noahs son Shem in its translation of Genesis 14:18: The king of Righteousness (Melka-sedek), the king of Jerusalemhe is Shem, the great onebrought out bread and wine, for he was the priest who served in the High Priesthood before the Most High God (also the later Targum Pseudo-Jonathan).

Later rabbinic traditions understand the high priesthood to have first been given to Shem-Melchizedek (Gen 14:1820) but then transferred to Aaron through Abraham. Psalm 110:4 was read, You [Abraham] are a priest forever (see b. Zebaḥ. 62a)."

Stanley E. Porter and Craig A. Evans, Dictionary of New Testament Background : A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000).

yeshuasavedme · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
I have always thought this theory was by far the most interesting. I own many books that discuss this possibility. I thought I would share some quotes.

"There is an ancient Hebrew tradition, which of course would not have been affected by the passage in the Book of Hebrews, that Melchizedek was actually the patriarch Shem, still alive during Abrams day. Assuming there are no gaps in the genealogies of Genesis 11, Shem would have lived until thirty-five years after Abrahams death, so that this would be possible. The name Melchizedek would, in this case, be regarded as a title rather than as an actual name. It does not seem unreasonable to imagine that, after the Dispersion at Babel, Shem might have moved, under divine guidance, to the place where God would one day establish His temple. As the custodian of the patriarchal records, he could then have transmitted them to Isaac after Abrahams death. This would also help explain why there was no document entitled the generations of Abraham. Terah, according to Genesis 11:32, continued to live in Haran for sixty years after Abram had left for Canaan, and therefore also was still alive at this time. Isaac was thirty-five years old when Terah died and forty-five when Shem died, again assuming no gaps in the genealogies."

Henry M. Morris, The Genesis Record : A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the Book of Beginnings (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1976), 320.

"Both the second-century Aramaic Targum Neofiti and the Fragment Targum identify Melchizedek with Noahs son Shem in its translation of Genesis 14:18: The king of Righteousness (Melka-sedek), the king of Jerusalemhe is Shem, the great onebrought out bread and wine, for he was the priest who served in the High Priesthood before the Most High God (also the later Targum Pseudo-Jonathan).

Later rabbinic traditions understand the high priesthood to have first been given to Shem-Melchizedek (Gen 14:1820) but then transferred to Aaron through Abraham. Psalm 110:4 was read, You [Abraham] are a priest forever (see b. Zebaḥ. 62a)."

Stanley E. Porter and Craig A. Evans, Dictionary of New Testament Background : A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000).

Jasher shows a lot of interaction between Abraham and Noah and Shem. It also shows that Abraham was born 60 years before Ussher dates his birth.

The Real Book of Jasher?

Perhaps the most important key found in the Book of Jasher is that it corrects the erroneous chronological date for the birth of Abraham assumed by many Christian commentators, in particular archbishop James Ussher. Says the Translator of the book of Jasher:

"From this book we learn that Noah and Abraham were contemporaries. How beautiful the contemplation of the meeting of these two Patriarchs, the one being a monument of God's mercy, the other having the promises of the favor and grace of God, not only to himself, but to his seed after him. This fact might be proved from Scripture; but from the 32nd verse in the 11th chapter of Genesis, most of the Christian commentators have erroneously dated the birth of Abraham 60 years later than it actually took place; as it is generally stated that he was born A.M. [after man, i.e., after Adam] 2008, whereas the regular calculation in the Bible leads us to 60 years earlier, viz. 1948. The only cause of this error has been that Abraham's departure from Haran, at the age of 75, is recorded close to the description of the death of Terah, at the age of 205, in Gen. ch. xi, v. 32" (p.vi).

God's Word · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
I have always thought this theory was by far the most interesting. I own many books that discuss this possibility. I thought I would share some quotes.

"There is an ancient Hebrew tradition, which of course would not have been affected by the passage in the Book of Hebrews, that Melchizedek was actually the patriarch Shem, still alive during Abrams day.

Click to expand...

Jig:

No offense, but that's got to be one of the most preposterous things that I've ever read. Shem was Melchisedec? Let's compare what scripture tells us about Shem with what scripture tells us about Melchisedec and see if it matches up, okay?

Genesis 10:1

"Now these are the generations of THE SONS OF NOAH, SHEM, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood."

Genesis 11:11

"And SHEM LIVED AFTER HE BEGAT ARPHAXAD FIVE HUNDRED YEARS, and begat sons and daughters."

Hebrews 7:1

"FOR THIS MELCHISEDEC, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; WITHOUT FATHER, WITHOUT MOTHER, WITHOUT DESCENT, HAVING NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS, NOR END OF LIFE; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Since we know, FROM SCRIPTURE, who Shem's father (Noah) and mother (Noah's wife) were and thereby know his descent (Noah and his wife) and since we also know when he died (500 years after he begat Arphaxad), how could he possibly be Melchisedec?

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

God's Word said:
Hebrews 7:1

"FOR THIS MELCHISEDEC, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; WITHOUT FATHER, WITHOUT MOTHER, WITHOUT DESCENT, HAVING NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS, NOR END OF LIFE; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Since we know, FROM SCRIPTURE, who Shem's father (Noah) and mother (Noah's wife) were and thereby know his descent (Noah and his wife) and since we also know when he died (500 years after he begat Arphaxad), how could he possibly be Melchisedec?

Edit: I misunderstood what you were trying to point out.

God's Word · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
Edit: Refer to post 10.

Jig:

Why in the world would you refer me back to post 10? There, you said:

Jig said:
So far as the record of Scripture is concerned, Melchizedek has no end of life...

THIS is exactly my point. THE RECORD OF SCRIPTURE tells us precisely when Shem's life ended (as well as who his parents were), so how then can he be Melchizedek? Come on...you can see it, can't you?

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

God's Word said:
Jig:

Why in the world would you refer me back to post 10? There, you said:

THIS is exactly my point. THE RECORD OF SCRIPTURE tells us precisely when Shem's life ended (as well as who his parents were), so how then can he be Melchizedek? Come on...you can see it, can't you?

Actually, I do see your point. Thanks for bringing this up.

Frogster · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
So far as the record of Scripture is concerned, Melchizedek has no end of life and his unique priesthood has no successor. But what is true of Melchizedek in a limited and literary sense is true absolutely of the one who serves his people as high priest in the presence of God - Jesus.

There is no doubt that the author of Hebrews was comparing Jesus and Melchizedek. The analogy made is crystal clear. However, this would be impossible if the two people were the same. You can't compare Jesus to Jesus.

It was Jesus, look how the priesthood of Jesus is based off the endless life of Mel...who was not mortal, 7;8.

7:15This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is witnessed of him,

"You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek."

Other than Jesus, all died in Adam, so Mel had to be Jesus, or how could he live on?

Look at the comparison of jesus in 24, to living forever, as per Mel in 7:3.

7:3He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.

7:24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.

Jig · Nov 5, 2011

Frogster said:
It was Jesus, look how the priesthood of Jesus is based off the endless life of Mel...who was not mortal, 7;8.

7:15This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is witnessed of him,

"You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek."

Other than Jesus, all died in Adam, so Mel had to be Jesus, or how could he live on?

Look at the comparison of jesus in 24, to living forever, as per Mel in 7:3.

7:3He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.

7:24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.

I must disagree with you based on literary context. The author of Hebrews 7 is clearly making an analogy between Melchizedek and Christ.

You have failed to answer my initial assertion about the text. How can this be a true analogy if the two persons being compared are the same person?

I do not think that the author of Hebrews meant his words to be taken at face value. He was constructing a literary device.

Also, I am happy you brought up Psalm 110:4.

You are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedek.

Who is the "you" in this verse? I believe it is referring to the Messiah - Jesus (who is God in flesh).

How does this statement make sense if Melchizedek was also Jesus/God (Christophany/theophany)?

[Jesus] is a priest forever after the order of [Jesus]???

God's Word · Nov 5, 2011

Jig said:
Actually, I do see your point. Thanks for bringing this up.

Jig:

I'm sincerely glad that you see it. Incidentally, I didn't mean to insinuate that YOU were "preposterous", but only what some others have asserted/alleged in relation to Shem being Mechisedec is indeed "preposterous". In fact, quite frankly, I also wanted "yeshuasavedme" to see my response...especially since she's been pushing "the book of Jasher" a lot lately, claiming that it lines up perfectly with what is revealed in the Bible. Obviously, in regards to the claim that Shem was Melchisedec, this simply is not so.

BTW, although I'm still presently uncertain as to whether or not Melchisedec was actually Jesus or just a type/foreshadowing of Him, I do presently lean in the direction of your belief. IOW, I don't think that Jesus was actually being compared to Himself, but rather to an Old Testament type of Himself. I could be wrong, though...

Melchizedek was not a Christophany

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