Does free will truly exist?

I have thought through this myself before and discussed it with a few people. I don't think it does. Hypothetically (from my perspective) he simply knows what our choices would be. Let me give an example that I think is appropriate, yet I mean no disrespect in the metaphor.

If I drop a piece of steak on the floor in my dog's presence, I know (with 99% certainty, but for argument's sake) that my dog will snap it up. Despite knowing that it will happen in advance, that doesn't change that the dog is making the choice to gobble it up. If I intervene and stop him, then I am influencing the outcome, but if I do nothing past dropping the steak, the dog is making the choice.

No, not necessarily. There are better arguments against free will.

If freedom from a God who created and controls all things may be absolute at least in some cases, the control of God would seem to be some kind of problem that needs some kind of answer, like God's voluntary self-restriction on absolute control. If human freedom were mere illusion, ethical human responsibility with respect to God would seem to be a problem in need of some kind of answer.

The latter shares with material determinism (one thinks of B.F. Skinner and Peter Singer) doubt (at least) in the possibility of human social responsibility, save perhaps in a functional, legal, and/or pragmatic sense.

Part of the difficulty for theism of the above variety is that the nature of divine causality in human choice is not well understood, not merely because there is a difference in logic between kinds of causes, but also because God is not well understood, at least in respect to the present concern. Often in the Bible in the same breath, so to speak, divine control and human responsibility are simply affirmed (e.g., John 6:35-40).

Often human freedom is insisted upon as an implied defense of God's justice or as an intuitive rejection of the despair or meaninglessness that naturalistic or super-naturalistic determinism implies. Or more commonly and not under duress, human freedom may be affirmed as an intuitive observation of at least apparent daily reality without necessarily any keen distinction of all that humans are free or not free FROM.

What seems clearer to me is what freedom from God does not entail, such as that it cannot be be absolute given my understanding of who God is. But the matter can perhaps be partly understood from more mundane or profane cases, such as may be observed by an alcoholic who firmly disbelieves s/he is controlled by an addiction. Or a hardened murderer who insists on rationalization of killing. Closer to home are less spectacular (perhaps) denials of motives like pride or vengeance. Human freedom from God may consist of a rejection of what is good or true. Two cheers. But in God's world, if you please, there are consequences to such "liberty" of one sort or another.

Some may argue that I have been compelled to write or ramble the above because of my nature or by God's control over even my motives, but I feel compelled by fatigue to quit for now unless I quit by choice. Of course if I am at all right, both divine control and relative human freedom of choice may be causes (albeit somewhat mysteriously) of this ending.

orangelight said:

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

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Yes.[/thread]


























lol. I honestly get tired of the free will discussion. There is no free will in the Bible. In fact, the Bible teaches that all our steps are directed by God, who has plans for our lives (which, by the way, would be worthless if He didn't have control). Even salvation is determined by God. We are all lost by default, but we can come to God only if He allows us to.

Free will is not only Biblically inaccurate, it's logically impossible.

How would you tell the difference?

orangelight said:

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

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It's tricky. As usual it all depends on definitions. But I will say that God knowing what we are going to do can still leave room for some kind of free will, just as long as we don't know what we are going to do.

orangelight said:

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

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Is he preventing you doing things you try and do, at all times? For instance if you make a move towards tieing you shoelace then does Gods knowledge that you will tie them prevent you (impair your willful actions) from doing that? No.

You've managed to completely miss the point. Omniscience implies that God knows all true propositions. If that is the case, He would know ahead of time that one is going to tie their show. When it came time for that person to tie their show, they would HAVE to tie their show, or else either 1. God wouldn't be omniscient or 2. you end up with two contradictory propositions existing simultaneously, both of which would contradict our original premises.

But I willed to tie my lace and nothing stopped me. It seems to me to make no difference whether this was predicted or logically determied or whatever. The point remains that I desired to act in a certain way and nothing prevented me from doing so. Now, given that it was true that I would tie my lace I may not have been free to not tie my lace, but thats another matter.

As bricklayer pointed out a will is free to do what it can do. Given that the set of true propositions about my future actions represnt things that I can do, it seems that they are all free and not vice versa.

orangelight said:

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

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In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 16:9

It's just a matter of wanting/seeking to believe (free will). Ultimately, God decides (fate; John 6:44). It's not your fault for doubting. It's natural, in a way. The important thing is that you're seeking; "seek and you shall find" (Matthews 7:7).

"No one can come to me, unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." - Jesus
John 6:44

GrayAngel said:

lol. I honestly get tired of the free will discussion. There is no free will in the Bible. In fact, the Bible teaches that all our steps are directed by God, who has plans for our lives (which, by the way, would be worthless if He didn't have control). Even salvation is determined by God. We are all lost by default, but we can come to God only if He allows us to.

Free will is not only Biblically inaccurate, it's logically impossible.

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I think it would be more true to say that some of the Bible teaches free will and some doesn't. If God controls all things why isn't God evil? Why shouldn't we denounce God as the devil he is?

Either way it makes no difference what I do with my life then as its all in accordance with God's will.

Bushido216 said:

You've managed to completely miss the point. Omniscience implies that God knows all true propositions. If that is the case, He would know ahead of time that one is going to tie their show. When it came time for that person to tie their show, they would HAVE to tie their show, or else either 1. God wouldn't be omniscient or 2. you end up with two contradictory propositions existing simultaneously, both of which would contradict our original premises.

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The problem here is that you assume God knows something 'before' it happens. This means God must be inside our time, which would appear to be absurd as space-time seems to be a created thing. Therefore God must be outside our time and so can't know something 'before' it happens. This means God knows what we do, but not before, at the time, or after it happens.

orangelight said:

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

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No, it is not.
Your question, however, reveals your definition of a free will.
You can make a free will choice, but you cannot make it by chance.
This creation is exactly the combination of choices God chose to create.
God necessarily knows His creation exhaustively and quite apart from its existence.
God does not come to know your choices; you do.

We do have free wills.
What we do not have are secret wills.
This creation is EXACTLY the combination of our free will choices that God chose to create.

Now, if what you mean by a free will is a secret will, that would be better defined as a necessary will. Human wills are not necessary; they are contingent. Human wills are subject to change, and anything subject to change is subject (ie, not-sovereign, not-necessary, contingent).

Enlightenment to God's sovereignty is more than a "Matrix moment".

Paradoxum said:

I think it would be more true to say that some of the Bible teaches free will and some doesn't. If God controls all things why isn't God evil? Why shouldn't we denounce God as the devil he is?

Either way it makes no difference what I do with my life then as its all in accordance with God's will.

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No matter how many times I ask, no one has ever been able to provide Biblical evidence of free will. You can't find any because it is not in there.

The only "evidence" free will proponents have ever been able to muster up are verses which say absolutely nothing on the subject, such as John 3:16.

Then they'll choose to ignore the verses which do speak directly on the subject, such as Romans 9:10-21:

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”


What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"


The Bible is consistent in its message. Free will is a myth, but predestination is real.


You assume that for God to create evil, that must make God evil Himself, but this simply isn't true. God is the author of all our lives, and He created us all for a purpose. He created evil for the benefit of those He predestined. The first century Christians knew this, and they praised God when they were persecuted, not despite the torture they received, but because of it.



The evil people God creates are not any less evil because they were created that way. With or without God, we are all formed by a combination of nature (biology) and nurture (the environment). Predestination changes nothing and gives evil no excuse. As I said earlier, their existence was necessary, but God has no desire to keep them. Evil is like toilet paper: useful for a moment, then tossed away the next.


And what makes you think your life has any less importance because God had ordained it? Does it make your life worth less that the evils of the world have a purpose, and the world is not in complete chaos designed by unpredictable human nature?

Paradoxum said:

The problem here is that you assume God knows something 'before' it happens. This means God must be inside our time, which would appear to be absurd as space-time seems to be a created thing. Therefore God must be outside our time and so can't know something 'before' it happens. This means God knows what we do, but not before, at the time, or after it happens.

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Oh, so it's us who have free will, but God, the creator of everything, does not have free will? If our actions were not predicted by God, then that means God has no control, and we have free will. But it also means that everything God ever did or will do was already predetermined, and God has no free will.

This is a rather convoluted way of viewing things, don't you think? Do you really think that God being outside of time means that nothing is under His control?

GrayAngel said:

No matter how many times I ask, no one has ever been able to provide Biblical evidence of free will. You can't find any because it is not in there.

The only "evidence" free will proponents have ever been able to muster up are verses which say absolutely nothing on the subject, such as John 3:16.

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First off I want to say that I don't necessarily believe in free will, but that is for rational reasons. One example that springs to mind is Matthew 23:37: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

So God longs for something, has control of everything, yet is still complaining about his puppets doing what he is making them do. That seems rather 'convoluted' don't you think?

As well as this there are verse where God calls people to repent, but they don't. What is the point is calling someone to repent if they don't have the will to because the very person calling them won't let it be so.

Are you a Calvinist by the way?

Then they'll choose to ignore the verses which do speak directly on the subject, such as Romans 9:10-21:

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”


What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

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Fun fact: Apparent the clay analogy comes from the OT. In that OT messages the clay it talks about does seem to have free will. Of course I've forgotten what that passage is, so I don't mind if you disagree with me here.

I'm not going to deal with Romans 9 right now as I'm pretty tired, but I will say that there is a difference between free will and predestination. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

You assume that for God to create evil, that must make God evil Himself, but this simply isn't true. God is the author of all our lives, and He created us all for a purpose. He created evil for the benefit of those He predestined. The first century Christians knew this, and they praised God when they were persecuted, not despite the torture they received, but because of it.

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It isn't the fact that God creates evil, but that he wills evil. If someone is raped, does God will it? Did he make him do it? If so, why isn't God evil?

I used to be a strong Christian, but I have slowly lost faith. Why should I try to find God again if I can't? If it is purely the choice of God then I can't possibly be with love again if he is against it. If God is for me then I can't come to Him until He is ready and therefore there is no point trying.

The evil people God creates are not any less evil because they were created that way. With or without God, we are all formed by a combination of nature (biology) and nurture (the environment). Predestination changes nothing and gives evil no excuse. As I said earlier, their existence was necessary, but God has no desire to keep them. Evil is like toilet paper: useful for a moment, then tossed away the next.

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Why does evil happen then? God's choice or humans? If we are just robots then we can't be blamed any more than we blame a computer for doing what its programmer programmed it to do.

As well as this it reduces the value of human life. All people, saints and sinners, should be loved liberated and regenerated. If we are to love our enemies and forgive not once, but 77*7 times then why would God do any less?

And what makes you think your life has any less importance because God had ordained it? Does it make your life worth less that the evils of the world have a purpose, and the world is not in complete chaos designed by unpredictable human nature?

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It isn't purpose isn't my problem.

Oh, so it's us who have free will, but God, the creator of everything, does not have free will? If our actions were not predicted by God, then that means God has no control, and we have free will. But it also means that everything God ever did or will do was already predetermined, and God has no free will.

This is a rather convoluted way of viewing things, don't you think? Do you really think that God being outside of time means that nothing is under His control?

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God could have free will and us. God does know what we do, but because He is outside time it means that words like 'before' are meaningless.

GrowingSmaller said:

But I willed to tie my lace and nothing stopped me. It seems to me to make no difference whether this was predicted or logically determied or whatever. The point remains that I desired to act in a certain way and nothing prevented me from doing so. Now, given that it was true that I would tie my lace I may not have been free to not tie my lace, but thats another matter.

As bricklayer pointed out a will is free to do what it can do. Given that the set of true propositions about my future actions represnt things that I can do, it seems that they are all free and not vice versa.

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I'm not saying I agree with the argument. I was formulating the argument so that you might properly respond to it. This is essentially an argument over modality.

I could retort that because God knows all true propositions, you necessarily desired to tie your shoelaces, rather than it being merely possible that you would desire to do so. It's a question of possible vs. necessary. This argument has to be formulated and responded to in the correct terms, which in this instance would be temporal modal logic.

Paradoxum said:

The problem here is that you assume God knows something 'before' it happens. This means God must be inside our time, which would appear to be absurd as space-time seems to be a created thing. Therefore God must be outside our time and so can't know something 'before' it happens. This means God knows what we do, but not before, at the time, or after it happens.

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I wasn't meaning to make comment w/ regards to God's involvement in time, though I do agree that when formulating the question 1. we must decide that we are using God the father as our referent when we say "God" and 2. that we're not talking about any sempiternal manifestations (Jesus, e.g.)

For whatever it's worth, I come down on the side of Free Will. Regardless, if someone is going to defend Free Will against omniscient determinism, they have to know what omniscient determinism actually is first, or else they're simply being silly. Being accidentally right is frankly less praiseworthy than being intelligently wrong.

Paradoxum said:

First off I want to say that I don't necessarily believe in free will, but that is for rational reasons. One example that springs to mind is Matthew 23:37: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

So God longs for something, has control of everything, yet is still complaining about his puppets doing what he is making them do. That seems rather 'convoluted' don't you think?

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This one is actually a bit challenging, but I don't think it means what free-will proponents claim it does.

First, who is Jesus speaking to? Jesus was in the context of this passage, Jesus was referring to the pharisees and teachers of the law, of whom Jesus was not a big fan of. If you look at the whole chapter, you'll see a lot of paragraphs starting with "Woe to you."

Also notice that the verse doesn't say that God was unable to gather His people ("your children," the Jews), but that they (the pharisees and teachers of the law) were unwilling.

This verse is not speaking of God's inability to save those He seeks, but He's speaking against the pharisees and teachers of the law who have lead many astray. These are the same people who would turn violent, persecuting Christians and causing them to disperse. The latter was also a part of God's plan, because the Christians were not obedient in spreading the gospel to the gentiles, and so God was giving them a push.

Paradoxum said:

As well as this there are verse where God calls people to repent, but they don't. What is the point is calling someone to repent if they don't have the will to because the very person calling them won't let it be so.

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I'd have to see a verse specifically before I can explain it. However, there is a difference between God speaking a command to repent and God calling a heart to repentance. A command is just a collection of words, with no power, and it can be given to group of people. God's calling is a personal experience, and it is seen when God softens the hearts the elect so that they would respond to the Gospel with faith.

When telling of Jesus' ministry, the Bible sometimes speaks of God hardening the hearts of Jesus' audience so that they won't believe. It also does a similar thing when speaking of Paul's ministry:

Acts 13:48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Paradoxum said:

Are you a Calvinist by the way?

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You might say my beliefs coincide with Calvinism, but I haven't done too much research into the works of John Calvin, and I don't like the label. Similarly, I go to a Baptist church, but I don't like to call myself a Baptist.

I'm a Christian first.

Paradoxum said:

Fun fact: Apparent the clay analogy comes from the OT. In that OT messages the clay it talks about does seem to have free will. Of course I've forgotten what that passage is, so I don't mind if you disagree with me here.

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Is this the one you're talking about?

Isaiah 29:16 - You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
“You did not make me”?
Can the pot say to the potter,
“You know nothing”?

This is similar analogy, but of a different topic. Here, the "clay" (people) are said to be guilty trying to switch their role with God's.

Paul likely knew of this scripture, and the similarities between this passage and his own were probably purposeful.

Isaiah uses this analogy multiple times, and his point seems to be pretty unified: God is the supreme creator, and it is not our place to question His work.

Paradoxum said:

I'm not going to deal with Romans 9 right now as I'm pretty tired, but I will say that there is a difference between free will and predestination. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

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I disagree. I don't see how free will and predestination could ever possibly be reconciled. Both are entirely contradictory to the other, so there are only three ways of putting them together:

1. Change the definition of predestination to fit free will. This seems to be the most popular option. People say that predestination is equal to God's foreknowledge, but that His foreknowledge does not determine our action. The problem with this solution is that predestination and foreknowledge are two entirely different things, and the Bible doesn't just say that God knows who will be saved, but that He chooses who will be saved.

There's a reason why the saved are called the "elect." Election is something someone else does for you, like when a President is elected by a nation. You can't elect yourself.

2. Change the definition of free will to fit predestination. Some claim that is all-powerful, and that He selects before time who will be saved. Then they say that people still have free will because God isn't forcing anyone to do something they don't want to do. He doesn't grab us by the arm and force us to repent, but He softens our hearts and causes us to repent.

The problem with this is that what they're describing as free will is not free will at all. God is still the one in charge, and no one can resist His will. It would be more accurate to call this "limited will," because the will is not free at all, but the desire to act is still there.

I've also heard it said that "God sets the goal, but not the path." This, to me, makes absolutely no sense. How can you decide someone's ending without also determining how they get to that end?

3. Simply dismiss it as something you'll never be able to comprehend, which really isn't even a solution at all.

Paradoxum said:

It isn't the fact that God creates evil, but that he wills evil. If someone is raped, does God will it? Did he make him do it? If so, why isn't God evil?

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This is what the first century Christians believed:

God is all-powerful, and nothing happens outside of His will. God is good, and all His plans are for the good of the elect. Therefore, persecution comes from God, and God will bring something good out of it. Why would rape be any different?

Yes, rape is a horrible thing. But so is getting flogged or stoned to death. But the Bible says that God is just and will punish all evil, and that He has compassion on those who were wronged. In the afterlife, those in Hell will pay for everyone they've ever hurt, but those is Heaven will be rewarded for what they endured in Christ's name.

It's God's intentions that make Him good. He doesn't put us through tough times just to torture us, but because He has something better in mind. (There are negative consequences to bad actions, but this is different. I'm speaking about the negative events that are out of our control.)

Every action has a reaction. Just one event changed would result in a completely different future down the line. There's no way any of us can ever know the mind of God, but we trust that He knows what He is doing.

Paradoxum said:

I used to be a strong Christian, but I have slowly lost faith. Why should I try to find God again if I can't? If it is purely the choice of God then I can't possibly be with love again if he is against it. If God is for me then I can't come to Him until He is ready and therefore there is no point trying.

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Here's the funny thing about predestination: only God knows our future, so to us, it's almost as if we do have free will.

It would be one thing if God prophesied that He wouldn't allow to believe again, but usually we are kept ignorant about our future.

Therefore, my advice for living is this: live as if you have free will, but trust as if you are predestined.

If you want to believe in God, then try it out. If it works, then God had planned for you to come to Him all along. If it doesn't, then what was the harm in trying? It's better to seek after God, not knowing if you are one of His chosen elect, than to sit at home and decide your own fate.

Paradoxum said:

Why does evil happen then? God's choice or humans? If we are just robots then we can't be blamed any more than we blame a computer for doing what its programmer programmed it to do.

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If a man goes on a shooting spree and goes to trial, would it be a justifiable defense to say that the man only committed his crime because he was predisposed by his environment to be a killer (having an abusive childhood or something)? Would it be right to let him off the hook because of some gene in his body that caused him to be a killer? They say that some psychopathic murderers lack the ability to feel pleasure in situations that normal people find rewarding, and so they go to increasingly extreme measures to make up for it.

Without God, we're still created by a combination of nature and nurture. No matter which way you go, God or no god, you can't escape the fact that our nature was caused by something out of our own control.

God's design does not justify us. If He creates a murderer, that guy is still a murderer. Origin doesn't justify. We're not held accountable because we are in charge of our own destinies, but because we are who we are.

Paradoxum said:

As well as this it reduces the value of human life. All people, saints and sinners, should be loved liberated and regenerated. If we are to love our enemies and forgive not once, but 77*7 times then why would God do any less?

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I don't see how predestination reduces the value of human life. If anything, it makes us worth more. What if God had created the Big Bang and then left us alone to do our own thing? Wouldn't that make Him like a neglectful parent? Wouldn't it imply that He didn't care at all about us or what becomes of our lives?

The fact that God is so heavily involved in our lives tells me that He cares quite a lot about us.

Paradoxum said:

God could have free will and us. God does know what we do, but because He is outside time it means that words like 'before' are meaningless.

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If God doesn't know the future, then how could anything He ever did be intentional? Like you said, God is outside of time. That means, to Him, He sees the future 1000 years from now and is living in it at the same time that He sees and lives 1000 years in the past.

If He didn't know anything that would happen "before" it happened, then God can't have any control of His own actions. Creation would have been an accident, because He didn't know ahead of time how things would turn out. He didn't think and then act, He just did. This basically turns God into the robot, and us into the masters of our own destinies (although I would argue that true free will is impossible with or without God).

Paradoxum said:

It isn't the fact that God creates evil, but that he wills evil. If someone is raped, does God will it? Did he make him do it? If so, why isn't God evil?

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I've struggled with this kind of problem too. Nor have I found "God knew in advance" responses satisfying or entirely representative of the Bible. And often explanations of God's (supposed?) relationship to time claim to "clarify" the difficult by means of the obscure.

Often in these kinds of divine sovereignty/human responsibility passages in the Bible, there is more concern to progress from assumptions to application rather than to explain a systematic reconciliation, leaving the reader to trust the assumptions or not.

These assumptions (or flat out affirmations) include that God is not the author of sin and does not ever approve of sin. If instead He did, well that would be the end of any purpose to this discussion and the end of hope as far as I am concerned.

But even assuming God's goodness, your claim I think is correct at least in some sense that God wills evil, even (as notably here) moral/ethical evil such as rape in the example you chose. (A common OT word for "evil" can apply either to ethical evil (sin) or to things like natural disaster depending on context.)

That is going to be a controversial claim in most Christian circles so far as I know, so what follows are some Bible verses that are relevant to the support of such a claim (which in all cases should be read in their respective contexts). I realize, however, that you may mean something different than what I mean by "God wills evil," especially the implication that God is evil.


Whew. Of course the same books of the Bible that make the above statements often also assume or affirm God's holiness, goodness or the like, which again I also affirm. And God's willing of sin as above is often a device used in judgment of sin somewhere. But the uncomfortable relationship of God to sin remains assumed or affirmed in the above passages.

Whatever religious or philosophical position one takes about the problem(s) of evil and of free will, one runs into some difficulty or other that one must accept in order to maintain that position. Pointing out flaws or difficulties in other people's systematic reconciliations is often easier (e.g., also in macro-economic theory) than in propounding a cogent, airtight model.

Here, the implication again is that God is in control of sin in some sense, yet does not approve of sin nor Himself sin. How that is possible is not entirely explained, but again the causality of God is a bit mysterious. And again, one is left to trust the claims and the nature of the God represented or not.

To me, the view is at least more satisfying than belief in a God who is either not in control of evil or in process of becoming something greater. Or at least the view I have represented seems to incorporate credulously certain passages of the Bible which are often neglected on the topic.