The Devil Made Me Do IT

he-man · Nov 1, 2011

Son of Zadok said:
I appreciate your comments - however the Isaiah document found with the Dead Scriptures resolves all question in relationship to the issue with the King James Version that translates to English the term evil where as the better translation (variant reading) now is understood as calamity.

Sorry my son but you need to apply the whole Bible and not just one verse.
Who destroyed the firstborn of the Egyptions? G-d

Who destroyed all the people of Sodom? G-d

Who destroyed all but eight people in the Flood of Noah? G-d

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Sauls attendants said to him, See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:

Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Considering that God created everything and man choose evil, then God must use that which He made for the correction and testing of mankind.

cupid dave · Nov 2, 2011

he-man said:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Considering that God created everything and man choose evil, then God must use that which He made for the correction and testing of mankind.

Definitely...

That is the Facts of Life.
The Reality Principle is what men are told they must utilize in controlling their behavior.

Reality principle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Freudian psychology, the reality principle is the psychoanalytic concept describing circumstantial reality compelling a man or a woman to defer instant gratification. The reality principle is the factual governor of the actions taken by the ego, and always opposes the pleasure principle of the Id.
In infancy and early childhood, the Id rules behavior by obeying only the pleasure principle. Maturity is learning to endure the pain of deferred gratification, when reality requires it; thus, the psychoanalytic psychologist Sigmund Freud proposes that an ego thus educated has become reasonable; it no longer lets itself be governed by the pleasure principle, but obeys the reality principle, which also, at bottom, seeks to obtain pleasure, but pleasure which is assured through taking account of reality, even though it is pleasure postponed and diminished.

The evil that awaits men who will not conform to Reality is the correction that God brings down on them.

Aryeh is Here · Nov 2, 2011

God's correction is evil?

I'm not sure how you deduced that from the reality principle, but I think you need to reconsider.

he-man · Nov 2, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
God's correction is evil?

I'm not sure how you deduced that from the reality principle, but I think you need to reconsider.

No, you have it backwards.
Evil is God's correction that He uses for the unbelieving.

Who destroyed the firstborn of the Egyptions? G-d

Who destroyed all the people of Sodom? G-d

Who destroyed all but eight people in the Flood of Noah? G-d

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Aryeh is Here · Nov 2, 2011

I disagree, for obvious reasons presented in the very scripture you posted.

A corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit?

If correction is "evil" or "evil fruit" then you are saying that God is corrupt.

That's obviously wrong.

cupid dave · Nov 2, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
God's correction is evil?

I'm not sure how you deduced that from the reality principle, but I think you need to reconsider.

Makes sense.
If man does not face the Truth, and change his ways, evil will befall him.
That IS the bible message:

Isa[bless and do not curse]45:7
I, (almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:[bless and do not curse]
I, (both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (the environment for great misfortune), evil:[bless and do not curse]
I, (both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), do all these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).

Aryeh is Here · Nov 2, 2011

cupid dave said:
Makes sense.
If man does not face the Truth, and change his ways, evil will befall him.
That IS the bible message:

Isa[bless and do not curse]45:7
I, (almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:[bless and do not curse]
I, (both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (the environment for great misfortune), evil:[bless and do not curse]
I, (both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), do all these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).

I thought we were talking about discipline, not punishment.

Correction = to be given the opportunity to face reality and change course before evil comes. The thing that is happening to you right now.

cupid dave · Nov 2, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
God's correction is evil?

I'm not sure how you deduced that from the reality principle, but I think you need to reconsider.

Hmmm...
Maybe I can get you to reconsider and think for yourself on this.

The bible concerns Human Behavior and advises us that we are headed for destruction if we continue as we have.

That evil consequence can be avoided of course, but it is confronting us unless we accept The Truth about ourselves and become new creatures in God, saved from extinction.

Isa[bless and do not curse]45:7
I, (almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:[bless and do not curse]
I, (both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (the environment for great misfortune), evil:[bless and do not curse]
I, (both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), do all these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).

he-man · Nov 3, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
I thought we were talking about discipline, not punishment. Correction = to be given the opportunity to face reality and change course before evil comes. The thing that is happening to you right now.

You must need a lesson?
I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal. Job 27:11

Perhaps you should read what Job has to say about the ROD of correction that God supplies?

Job 9:32 "For He is not a man, as I am, That I may answer Him, And that we should go to court together.
(33) Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both.
(34) Let Him take His rod away from me, And do not let dread of Him terrify me.
(35) Then I would speak and not fear Him, But it is not so with me.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

2Ki 17:39 But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.

cupid dave · Nov 3, 2011

he-man said:
No, you have it backwards.
Evil is God's correction that He uses for the unbelieving.

Yes, its like facing the Reality that placing one's hand in the fire will get it burnt.

Sexual immorality will bring down a successful society, including America and all Europe, as we are witnessing today.

(ie, the behavior creates lazy worthless demanding kids who want society to continue spoiling them as did the single moms and absentee fathers.)

Aryeh is Here · Nov 3, 2011

he-man said:
You must need a lesson?
I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal. Job 27:11

Perhaps you should read what Job has to say about the ROD of correction that God supplies?

Job 9:32 "For He is not a man, as I am, That I may answer Him, And that we should go to court together.
(33) Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both.
(34) Let Him take His rod away from me, And do not let dread of Him terrify me.
(35) Then I would speak and not fear Him, But it is not so with me.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

2Ki 17:39 But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.

I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but like you said above, you need to look at the whole of a chapter and not one verse. This "ransom note" style doesn't appeal to me, because it doesn't make sense or keep the original intent of the scripture. This seems more like a lesson in how to make the bible say things it doesn't. Job was a righteous man and the circumstance of the events that happened to him had nothing to do with correction or punishment, but happened in spite of his righteousness.

Let me know when you can show me a full chapter without additions or deletions that says that God's correction is evil or that discipline and punishment are the same.

he-man · Nov 3, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
Let me know when you can show me a full chapter without additions or deletions that says that God's correction is evil or that discipline and punishment are the same.

The word is chastisement God does not punish anyone, which implies cruelty. The penalty that man pays is what he brings upon himself. For by the FRUIT you shall know them! The Egyptians learned that lesson very quickly when GOD slew all of their firstborn!
Heb 12:5 And ye have quite forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when reproved by him;

6 for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.

7 Ye endure for chastening, God conducts himself towards you as towards sons; for who is the son that the father chastens not?

8 But if ye are without chastening, of which all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, God will judge him; but if a man sin against Jehovah, who shall intreat for him? But they hearkened not to the voice of their father, for Jehovah was minded to slay them. [/font] (Darby)

Lev 26:41 so that I also walked contrary unto them, and brought them into the land of their enemies. If then their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then accept the chastisement of their iniquity,

Job 30:21 Thou art changed to a cruel one to me; with the strength of thy hand thou pursuest me.

Job 34:31 For hath he said unto *God, I bear chastisement , I will not offend;

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not. For I have smitten thee with the stroke of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the greatness of thine iniquity: thy sins are manifold.

Job 9:32 "For He is not a man, as I am, That I may answer Him, And that we should go to court together.
(33) Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both.
(34) Let Him take His rod away from me, And do not let dread of Him terrify me.
(35) Then I would speak and not fear Him, But it is not so with me.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

he-man · Nov 5, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but like you said above, you need to look at the whole of a chapter and not one verse.

Here are a few more verses to plead to you:

The word is chastisement God does not punish anyone, which implies cruelty. The penalty that man pays is what he brings upon himself. For by the FRUIT you shall know them! The Egyptians learned that lesson very quickly when GOD slew all of their firstborn!

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Heb 12:5 And ye have quite forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when reproved by him;

6 for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.

7 Ye endure for chastening, God conducts himself towards you as towards sons; for who is the son that the father chastens not?

8 But if ye are without chastening, of which all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, God will judge him; but if a man sin against Jehovah, who shall intreat for him? But they hearkened not to the voice of their father, for Jehovah was minded to slay them. [/font] (Darby)

Lev 26:41 so that I also walked contrary unto them, and brought them into the land of their enemies. If then their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then accept the chastisement of their iniquity,

Job 30:21 Thou art changed to a cruel one to me; with the strength of thy hand thou pursuest me.

Job 34:31 For hath he said unto *God, I bear chastisement , I will not offend;

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not. For I have smitten thee with the stroke of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the greatness of thine iniquity: thy sins are manifold.

Job 9:32 "For He is not a man, as I am, That I may answer Him, And that we should go to court together.
(33) Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both.
(34) Let Him take His rod away from me, And do not let dread of Him terrify me.
(35) Then I would speak and not fear Him, But it is not so with me.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Aryeh is Here · Nov 5, 2011

Listen. This is too scatter-brained and off-topic for we to want to bother addressing.

I'm not even going to bother reading this. There is no organization, or consistent formatting. It just looks like a word proccessor threw up.

Unless you can make a succinct point in under 150 words without turning scripture into a ransom note, please, don't respond to me.

he-man · Nov 5, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
Unless you can make a succinct point in under 150 words without turning scripture into a ransom note, please, don't respond to me.

My,My have we upset your orthodox thinking? This topic is under Unorthodox Theology .

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

In the Western Christian tradition, the Devil has entered popular folklore, particularly in his role as a trickster figure. As such, he is found as a character in a wide number of traditional folktales and legends from Ireland, Newfoundland, Italy and the United Kingdom, where he often attempts to trick or outwit other characters. In some of these tales, the Devil is portrayed as more of a folk villain than as the personification of evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil
Jeffrey Burton Russell, Lucifer, the Devil in the Middle Ages (Cornell University Press, 1986), p. 128

For Newton, therefore, demons were figures for disordered psychotic states. The cases of demon-possession in the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.

Newton goes on to say that to beleive that men or weomen can really divine, charm, inchant, bewitch or converse with spirits is a superstition of the same nature wth beleiving that the idols of the gentils were not vanities but had spirits really seated in them.
Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of orthodox theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart:

Aryeh is Here · Nov 5, 2011

No, you haven't upset my thinking, just given me an eye strain. You haven't affected me one way regarding what I think or believe. There isn't a cognitive argument to follow, or, if there is one, I can't find it, because it is drowned in a sea of irrelevance.

Please stop talking at me. It's obvious you aren't interested in having a proper dialogue.

he-man · Nov 6, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
Please stop talking at me. It's obvious you aren't interested in having a proper dialogue.

Cat got your tongue, don't know what to answer?

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

In the Western Christian tradition, the Devil has entered popular folklore, particularly in his role as a trickster figure. As such, he is found as a character in a wide number of traditional folktales and legends from Ireland, Newfoundland, Italy and the United Kingdom, where he often attempts to trick or outwit other characters. In some of these tales, the Devil is portrayed as more of a folk villain than as the personification of evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil
Jeffrey Burton Russell, Lucifer, the Devil in the Middle Ages (Cornell University Press, 1986), p. 128

For Newton, therefore, demons were figures for disordered psychotic states. The cases of demon-possession in the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.

Newton goes on to say that to beleive that men or weomen can really divine, charm, inchant, bewitch or converse with spirits is a superstition of the same nature wth beleiving that the idols of the gentils were not vanities but had spirits really seated in them.

Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of orthodox theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart:

Aryeh is Here · Nov 6, 2011

I have seen your style of debate, and it is pointless to engage you. If you had a point to make or a question to answer, I would know what to answer.

You've dumped a bunch of copy/pasted material, but haven't expressed a clear opinion. I don't even know what question you are trying to answer.

Make a claim, give 1 piece of supporting evidence that makes a point and I will respond.

he-man · Nov 6, 2011

Aryeh is Here said:
You've dumped a bunch of copy/pasted material, but haven't expressed a clear opinion. I don't even know what question you are trying to answer.Make a claim, give 1 piece of supporting evidence that makes a point and I will respond.

For starters the name of this Topic is The Devil Made Me Do IT a sarcasm against the erroneous belief in a superstitious demon.
Muggleton, Bekker, and Newton came to that same conclusion, as did Jeffrey Burton Russell.

Newton says, the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.

Newton also says, to bewitch or converse with spirits is a superstition of the same nature wth beleiving that the idols of the gentils were not vanities but had spirits really seated in them.

Muggleton says the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of orthodox theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart:

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

In the Western Christian tradition, the Devil has entered popular folklore, particularly in his role as a trickster figure. As such, he is found as a character in a wide number of traditional folktales and legends from Ireland, Newfoundland, Italy and the United Kingdom, where he often attempts to trick or outwit other characters. In some of these tales, the Devil is portrayed as more of a folk villain than as the personification of evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil
Jeffrey Burton Russell, Lucifer, the Devil in the Middle Ages (Cornell University Press, 1986), p. 128

For Newton, therefore, demons were figures for disordered psychotic states. The cases of demon-possession in the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.

Newton goes on to say that to beleive that men or weomen can really divine, charm, inchant, bewitch or converse with spirits is a superstition of the same nature wth beleiving that the idols of the gentils were not vanities but had spirits really seated in them.

Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of orthodox theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart:

Aryeh is Here · Nov 6, 2011

Do you have a point or not? Can you express it succinctly without appealing to Newton who wasn't a theologian (not an authority on the subject)?

No?

The Devil Made Me Do IT

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