Real Issue behind relationships

blythe_ann said:

when I read this I thought you were still referring to your wife when you told the story about the light.

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I reworded that a couple times. It was worse before the edit!


I've been really busy at work today and my brain is mush.

mkgal1 said:

Pastors need to hear this insight.....IMO, hearing this would dramatically change how many pastors preach to know that it's having that effect.

I heard one pastor say that his mindset when he first began preaching was that the "job" of the church was to reach unbelievers--so he preached as if he was addressing those that were NOT in a relationship with HIm. He came to the understanding that isn't what the churches "job" is....that the church is where believers mature and grow. That part has gotten left out of most churches, and they're "stuck" in the evangelism, so everyone is being fed "milk".....never getting to the "meat".

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I think the church feeds too much of the negative emotions and events in people's lives. I grew up associating pain with Christianity. If you were in pain, God could help. If you were in pain, God was teaching you a lesson. The way most churches go about Christianity is just wrong to me.

Steelerbred33 said:

I think the church feeds too much of the negative emotions and events in people's lives. I grew up associating pain with Christianity. If you were in pain, God could help. If you were in pain, God was teaching you a lesson. The way most churches go about Christianity is just wrong to me.

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Sadly....I agree with you. I don't even attend a church right now, but that doesn't mean that Christianity itself is wrong (I'm not suggesting that's what you're saying).

I'd bet that a huge number of people have similar thoughts/feelings to those expressed here but don't verbalise them out of fear of being labelled a backslider, or not really a Christian.

I really liked those videos btw

mkgal1 said:

Sadly....I agree with you. I don't even attend a church right now, but that doesn't mean that Christianity itself is wrong (I'm not suggesting that's whay you're saying).

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It's comforting to have your understanding. I haven't attended church, regularly, since I moved out of my mom's house. It's liberating since being part of that church was depressing. For my mom, its her life. But, I am so analytical that I see how psychologically unhealthy it is.

I question Christianity, too, although not as much as the people who teach/talk about it. Christianity seems to manipulate negative emotions and I have noticed, in the past, that I did not feel a need for religion when happy/satisfied.

Athene said:

I'd bet that a huge number of people have similar thoughts/feelings to those expressed here but don't verbalise them out of fear of being labelled a backslider, or not really a Christian.

I really liked those videos btw

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I agree.....I do think that's probably the case. I had to give up being overly concerned about what others think. I remind myself that the gate is narrow and only a few will even find it (Matthew 7)...so, it doesn't surprise me that large numbers of people are following something that doesn't even resemble the God I see represented in the Bible.

Steelerbred33 said:

It's comforting to have your understanding. I haven't attended church, regularly, since I moved out of my mom's house. It's liberating since being part of that church was depressing. For my mom, its her life. But, I am so analytical that I see how psychologically unhealthy it is.

I question Christianity, too, although not as much as the people who teach/talk about it. Christianity seems to manipulate negative emotions and I have noticed, in the past, that I did not feel a need for religion when happy/satisfied.

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Nothing about church should be depressing. I thought it was easier to understand God when I didn't have all the other voices in my head (teachings and what came from congregants).

I'm just so glad you had the courage to post about all this......to bring it up, so it can be discussed.

Quote of Steelerbred
In my opinion, too many of the sermons I heard focused on man's weakness, inability, need to rely on God, and brought the power away from him. Each sermon ALWAYS ended in a need for prayer for those who were hurting.

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I have also been in churches where the sermon was too much of “man’s weakness and inability”. However, I think there are times when man needs to be reminded that he needs to rely on God for some things.

Quote of Steelerbred
Why were so many people constantly hurting in a relationship with God? Should it not have the opposite effect?

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It seems that a lot of people that are hurting finally turn to God. After all, Jesus said the following:

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 9:12
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Like everything else there is a balance. If all you see is people that are heavy laden, sick, and hurting without ever getting better then it will drive you away. On the other hand there are people that get a lot better with the right spiritual help. I have seen a number of people that have a relationship with God that are not constantly hurting.

Quote of Steelerbred
I think the church feeds too much of the negative emotions and events in people's lives. I grew up associating pain with Christianity. If you were in pain, God could help. If you were in pain, God was teaching you a lesson. The way most churches go about Christianity is just wrong to me.


I question Christianity, too, although not as much as the people who teach/talk about it. Christianity seems to manipulate negative emotions and I have noticed, in the past, that I did not feel a need for religion when happy/satisfied.

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I do not depend entirely on churches for my concept of Christianity. I find that I get a much better idea of Christianity by reading the scriptures myself, applying the teachings of the Bible to my life at times, and my life experiences. Church can be a good supplement but it is not the main source of my concept of Christianity. Your experiences with Christianity as demonstrated by the churches you go to or the Christian people may very well manipulate negative emotions but that is not what God’s word does for me.

John 15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 17:13
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

1 John 1

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

If you are like me then you will eventually learn that you cannot base your faith on churches and other Christian actions.

I agree with Stan. "Man", whether it be pastors/preachers/friends/family can skew our view of God so much. Sometimes I think there's so much we really don't understand properly about the Scriptures, even. But anyway, you oftenhear of people who are mad at God because of what other people have said or done. It's not God's fault, it's people's fault.

Steelerbred33 said:

I think the church feeds too much of the negative emotions and events in people's lives. I grew up associating pain with Christianity. If you were in pain, God could help. If you were in pain, God was teaching you a lesson. The way most churches go about Christianity is just wrong to me.

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How can one's experience result in classifying "most churches" which is a large generality as "wrong?"

Shouldn't our pain be addressed proactively by other Christians and especially by clergy (our pastors)? Aren't prayer and requests for healing a big part of Christian life?

I don't care for the "teaching you a lesson" part but that is an opinion by some not my own. Also, I don't work as a pastor but as a hospital chaplain praying for and helping to ease the pain of very sick and dying patients.

Steelerbred33 said:

Thank you! I never realized how destructive it was until the past several years.

In my opinion, too many of the sermons I heard focused on man's weakness, inability, need to rely on God, and brought the power away from him. Each sermon ALWAYS ended in a need for prayer for those who were hurting.

Why were so many people constantly hurting in a relationship with God? Should it not have the opposite effect?

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I'd like to reply but am not sure I understand correctly. Could you elaborate?

mkgal1 said:

I agree.....I do think that's probably the case. I had to give up being overly concerned about what others think. I remind myself that the gate is narrow and only a few will even find it (Matthew 7)...so, it doesn't surprise me that large numbers of people are following something that doesn't even resemble the God I see represented in the Bible.

Nothing about church should be depressing. I thought it was easier to understand God when I didn't have all the other voices in my head (teachings and what came from congregants).

I'm just so glad you had the courage to post about all this......to bring it up, so it can be discussed.

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My best churches have not been like this at all. The pastor led and helped, the congregation for the most part was supportive and like a family, and one left with a feeling of being enriched in Christ and supported.

Currently I have been attending one that is not like I've stated above. They do their best but there's not that "specialness" that my other churches had. So my wife and I continue to look for our church home. But there are still positive things about the church we attend.

sacerdote said:

I'd like to reply but am not sure I understand correctly. Could you elaborate?

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I am not sure what exactly I need to elaborate on. Most sermons, although I don't remember word for word, would make sure we all knew how weak we are and how much we need God. We would sing a song, "I am nothing without you," and that speaks for itself.

The constant message I received from Christianity was: "you are flawed, sinful and only through God can you really be happy. If you find happiness elsewhere, you are engaging in sin."

I have found more freedom and happiness through other means and ultimately healing from my depression, not through God, but by nutrition, exercise, self help.

Post by Steelerbred
I am not sure what exactly I need to elaborate on. Most sermons, although I don't remember word for word, would make sure we all knew how weak we are and how much we need God. We would sing a song, "I am nothing without you," and that speaks for itself.

The constant message I received from Christianity was: "you are flawed, sinful and only through God can you really be happy. If you find happiness elsewhere, you are engaging in sin."

I have found more freedom and happiness through other means and ultimately healing from my depression, not through God, but by nutrition, exercise, self help.

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I have no doubt that you have improved yourself with nutrition, exercise, and self help. Mankind can do some things fro themselves. However, as I stated earlier I think there are times when man needs to be reminded that he needs to rely on God for some things.

I do not think that we can rely only on our own self to have our sins forgiven and be saved.
I do not think that we can rely on ourselves to have our children born with eyesight that can tell colors and other marvelous things that babies and children can do that are only from God. Those are only a few there are more.

There is another side to the part about being “weak”, “nothing”, “flawed”, and sinful” and I am listing just a few verses below that show that we are very valuable to God and we are wonderfully made, created in God’s image, rulers, and “…salt of the earth”

Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Psalm 8:4-8


4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?[c]
5 You have made them[d] a little lower than the angels[e]
and crowned them[f] with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their[g] feet:



Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth

Matthew 25
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


It seems that the church you went to gave you unbalanced sermons.

Steelerbred, I think it is best to get your sermons straight from God’s word.

Steelerbred33 said:

I am not sure what exactly I need to elaborate on. Most sermons, although I don't remember word for word, would make sure we all knew how weak we are and how much we need God. We would sing a song, "I am nothing without you," and that speaks for itself.

The constant message I received from Christianity was: "you are flawed, sinful and only through God can you really be happy. If you find happiness elsewhere, you are engaging in sin."

I have found more freedom and happiness through other means and ultimately healing from my depression, not through God, but by nutrition, exercise, self help.

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Well, you have not heard one of my sermons.
I agree with you, to a degree at least. God did not promise us happiness. And there is happiness without God, we see it all the time. What is missing is peace, freedom from the wages of sin and the relationship that all of us were designed for. But there is no promise of wealth, health, happiness or anything so carnal as that. God made one thing very clear, flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit.

Truth is truth, no matter what we might think or justify to ourselves. We can say the sun is not rising and continue to say it all night long, but saying it means nothing in the morning. The truth is rising.

All you have to ask yourself is this: If there is a God and He can be known in a personal way; what should I do, how should I respond to Him?

You can hope you are right about life and simply use observation and such to justify your views, however; suppose there is a God and He's is trying to draw you to himself. How do you make that go away?

You can use words constructed of poor theology and understanding spoken by preachers as justification of a world view. But the truth still stands as true.

If God exists, and He's trying to draw you to Himself what have you observed and experienced that can make Him not exist?

Read these:
Romans 3:23, 6:23, 10: 9and 10.

God bless you on your journey.

sacerdote said:

Lives are turned around, marriages are made whole, and we can overcome things that seem impossible by faith. Rethink your departure from the Faith. It is truly worth it. I am praying for you Steelerbred.

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I'm not sure it's fair to assume she has "departed from the faith"? Departing from the CHURCH and departing from the FAITH are two different things.

I picked out the above from your post because me and my husband were extremely religious fundamentalist Christians for 30 years, since before we married in 1982. We went to seminary, were missionaries, and he was a prof at Xan colleges. To this day, he is there every time the church doors open. And from my perspective, there was no healing or deliverance for us at all from all those years of church attendance- and that includes several Prot. denominations along the way, none were superior.

I experienced more healing and deliverance from several hours with a professional secularly trained (christian) therapist than I ever experienced from the church.

As for my husband, he didn't trust therapy. He THOUGHT the church was supposed to be the source of such healing. So he just stayed in bondage to his various addictions, and got worse and worse instead of getting better. Until I dumped vast portions of the marriage theology I had learned from church and christian radio and literature and began to be very assertive with him regarding unacceptable behavior - to the point of "your choice, the marriage or your addictions" with the divorce papers all filled out and ready to go.

And I feel for Steelerbred, because in some ways, I put bondage onto my children through my fearful overprotective fundamentalism. Like being the modesty and media Nazi, for example. I was not a good representative of Christ and I had to apologize and make amends for it.

Personally, I LOVE the LORD and I will never depart from Him. There is nowhere else for me to turn. But I really don't care much for "the church" and I don't worry one bit about God loving and shepherding my own 23 yod and her husband who don't go and don't have much use for church right now. She was extremely hurt by her experiences at the hands of her christian parents and the way the pastor handled it when her father physically assaulted her at age 17.

Psalm63 said:

I'm not sure it's fair to assume she has "departed from the faith"? Departing from the CHURCH and departing from the FAITH are two different things.

I picked out the above from your post because me and my husband were extremely religious fundamentalist Christians for 30 years, since before we married in 1982. We went to seminary, were missionaries, and he was a prof at Xan colleges. To this day, he is there every time the church doors open. And from my perspective, there was no healing or deliverance for us at all from all those years of church attendance- and that includes several Prot. denominations along the way, none were superior.

I experienced more healing and deliverance from several hours with a professional secularly trained (christian) therapist than I ever experienced from the church.

As for my husband, he didn't trust therapy. He THOUGHT the church was supposed to be the source of such healing. So he just stayed in bondage to his various addictions, and got worse and worse instead of getting better. Until I dumped vast portions of the marriage theology I had learned from church and christian radio and literature and began to be very assertive with him regarding unacceptable behavior - to the point of "your choice, the marriage or your addictions" with the divorce papers all filled out and ready to go.

And I feel for Steelerbred, because in some ways, I put bondage onto my children through my fearful overprotective fundamentalism. Like being the modesty and media Nazi, for example. I was not a good representative of Christ and I had to apologize and make amends for it.

Personally, I LOVE the LORD and I will never depart from Him. There is nowhere else for me to turn. But I really don't care much for "the church" and I don't worry one bit about God loving and shepherding my own 23 yod and her husband who don't go and don't have much use for church right now. She was extremely hurt by her experiences at the hands of her christian parents and the way the pastor handled it when her father physically assaulted her at age 17.

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People who go to church, ministers included, are all fallen humans. It is true that sometimes the very people we turn to for strength and support turn on us and hurt us, but still, it is God's way of bringing us to Him. The scriptures are full of verses that point this out. God uses the weak things of this world to accomplish His purposes. It is also clear that God wants us in communion with other of His children.

I hope by you saying ""the church"" that you are not meaning "the church". The church, technically, is the body of believers. Unfortunately, this has been misconstrued to mean the physical building and the people that attend within it's walls. We can live without "the church", but we can't live without the church. God puts the desire to be with like-minded believers in our hearts for a reason, and that reason is that, without our brothers and sisters by our sides, calling us forward, we will fall behind. Our light will burn low and we will not have that close relationship with God that He desires. You know, this is part of eternity. Salvation began when Christ chose us and we responded in faith. It doesn't begin when we die and go to heaven. God wants a relationship with us now, and we achieve that with other believers.

So, as much as you can do without "the church", you can't do without the church.

eldermike said:

Well, you have not heard one of my sermons.
I agree with you, to a degree at least. God did not promise us happiness. And there is happiness without God, we see it all the time. What is missing is peace, freedom from the wages of sin and the relationship that all of us were designed for. But there is no promise of wealth, health, happiness or anything so carnal as that. God made one thing very clear, flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit.

Truth is truth, no matter what we might think or justify to ourselves. We can say the sun is not rising and continue to say it all night long, but saying it means nothing in the morning. The truth is rising.

All you have to ask yourself is this: If there is a God and He can be known in a personal way; what should I do, how should I respond to Him?

You can hope you are right about life and simply use observation and such to justify your views, however; suppose there is a God and He's is trying to draw you to himself. How do you make that go away?

You can use words constructed of poor theology and understanding spoken by preachers as justification of a world view. But the truth still stands as true.

If God exists, and He's trying to draw you to Himself what have you observed and experienced that can make Him not exist?

Read these:
Romans 3:23, 6:23, 10: 9and 10.

God bless you on your journey.

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Good post.

I am very sympathetic to the issues she raises about church, I nearly agree full on with her and it is causing me issues getting up and going to church, i have to admit.

I wonder if we are, in the west, entering a new period of transition, where we change again the way we approach God, His Word, and everything about our spiritual lives. Im fascinated with house churches and study groups, with digging and sharing, all that in intimate contact with like minded believers.
Sitting in church is not cutting it as it once did. On occasion, Im inspired, many times Im bored.....oh but the church as a canned reply to that right? Its "we dont go there to GET we go there to GIVE....there are exactly these little expressions that have developed in the western church that close avenues of exploration, these are the cliches of faith, and they exist about all aspects of faith, not just how worship is organized. We have cliches about marriage, divorce, adultery, sin, judging, the heart, the soul, heaven, tithing, experiential worship, glossolalia, serving, leading, love, anger, the list goes on, like a box with buttons to push to get the right Christian cliche response.

Conservativation said:

Good post.

I am very sympathetic to the issues she raises about church, I nearly agree full on with her and it is causing me issues getting up and going to church, i have to admit.

I wonder if we are, in the west, entering a new period of transition, where we change again the way we approach God, His Word, and everything about our spiritual lives. Im fascinated with house churches and study groups, with digging and sharing, all that in intimate contact with like minded believers.
Sitting in church is not cutting it as it once did. On occasion, Im inspired, many times Im bored.....oh but the church as a canned reply to that right? Its "we dont go there to GET we go there to GIVE....there are exactly these little expressions that have developed in the western church that close avenues of exploration, these are the cliches of faith, and they exist about all aspects of faith, not just how worship is organized. We have cliches about marriage, divorce, adultery, sin, judging, the heart, the soul, heaven, tithing, experiential worship, glossolalia, serving, leading, love, anger, the list goes on, like a box with buttons to push to get the right Christian cliche response.

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Couldn't agree more. Going to church three times a week, for two decades can get very boring and I have also heard all those cliches. At the time, I am simply turned off by the church and not anxious to find a new one.

sacerdote said:

Our sermons have a bit more variety but that is basically correct. We are weak without God's strength through our Savior Jesus Christ. We could not save ourselves from sin but God did through the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Also, once saved and born again, and through repentance we have a way to conquer sins that we all commit in our lives.
Earthly endeavors are fleeting. Carnal pursuits lead ultimately nowhere. Without salvation we only have this life. But with Christ we can live life to the fullest and to an extent not possible without him both here and in eternity.

God created us all and also those things that work for us such as proper diet, exercise, and medical science. I was also healed of depression through science and the Lord. I was healed of terminal leukemia that had no treatment by the Lord. I have seen miracles and more simply, countless prayers answered. Lives are turned around, marriages are made whole, and we can overcome things that seem impossible by faith. Rethink your departure from the Faith. It is truly worth it. I am praying for you Steelerbred.
.”

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Thank you for your insightful and thoughtful post. You put a lot of time into writing it and I greatly appreciate it.

It's tough when one has a different perspective on the Faith. From my perspective, many people don't change with the Faith. Without psychological intervention, most people will not be made new. I really believe psychology works better than Christianity. I see it all the time in my life and family/friends. For instance, my mother in law is a very devout Catholic. Mass everyday. Yet, she suffers from crippling worry and engages in a fantasy bond with her husband. Yet, without this awareness, it won't be healed with just God. That is how I see things. Yet, the potential to heal both with psychological concepts is much higher.