Old Testament Laws

mdseverin · Oct 10, 2011

I've been going over all the Old Testament laws, all 613 of them. While I understand that Jesus came to fulfill the law and not abolish it, should we not try and follow the law anyway because God initially created them? I know it's not works that save us, but that we do good works from faith and do them because we want to please God. So I don't quite understand why we would dismiss the OT laws because it seems to me that following them would please God and that these laws are how He intended humans to live.

Obviously some of these laws are not applicable today, like the sacrificial laws and punishment/restitution laws. But why dismiss others like the dietary and clothing laws?

Also, do you think it would it be wrong for a Christian to hang a Mezuzah?

Mark_Sam · Oct 11, 2011

Matthew 22:37-40
And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 13:8
"Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."

I think I have a very pragmatic approach to this. Can I serve my neighbour by following the dietary laws and the clothing laws? I don't think so.

But is it God-pleasing? I honestly don't know what to say. The great danger is that one can end up regarding oneself as a better Christian than those who do not observe the same level of piety.

But if we turn the question around: is it sin to NOT observe these laws (dietary, clothing, punishments etc.)? For if not, I would say it was adiaphoron. Does love for God lead us to follow these rules?

But again, doesn't James say that "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." (James 2:10)? Is the law indivisible? It has always seemed a little "pick and choose" to say that the law is divided into moral, civil, and priestly/sacrificial laws, and only the moral law is still in force for the Christians ...

Law theology can be a confusing field sometimes ...

DaRev · Oct 14, 2011

The Law is divided into three different classifications: moral law, civil law, and ceremonial law. The civil laws in the OT dealt more directly with the kingdom of Israel at that time, although the basis of these laws make up our civil laws of today. The ceremonial laws - which include things like dietary restrictions, clothing restrictions, Sabbath day requirements, etc. - were meant to point ahead to the coming Messiah. When Christ came, these laws were fulfilled, thus no longer apply. The moral law most directly deals with our relationships with God and with other people, and are still upheld by the Church.

bbbbbbb · Oct 14, 2011

DaRev said:
The Law is divided into three different classifications: moral law, civil law, and ceremonial law. The civil laws in the OT dealt more directly with the kingdom of Israel at that time, although the basis of these laws make up our civil laws of today. The ceremonial laws - which include things like dietary restrictions, clothing restrictions, Sabbath day requirements, etc. - were meant to point ahead to the coming Messiah. When Christ came, these laws were fulfilled, thus no longer apply. The moral law most directly deals with our relationships with God and with other people, and are still upheld by the Church.

One of the difficulties of a tripartite division of the Law is that nowhere in the OT is the Law thus divided so neatly for us. The result is that those who choose to divide the law (whether into two, three, or more divisions) are able to quickly determine the types that most of the laws fall into, but not in every case. For example, the SDA, which is based on this type of division, is quite insistent that the Sabbath is not ceremonial law or civil law, but moral law - except for the Sabbath year or the year of Jubilee, which are then classed as ceremonial laws.

DaRev · Oct 15, 2011

bbbbbbb said:
For example, the SDA, which is based on this type of division, is quite insistent that the Sabbath is not ceremonial law or civil law, but moral law - except for the Sabbath year or the year of Jubilee, which are then classed as ceremonial laws.

However, Jesus Himself declares that the OT Sabbath observation is tied to His coming. Plus Paul also makes the connection.

The division of the different types of law are rather plain.

Resha Caner · Oct 15, 2011

I think the OP was asking 2 questions:
1) Does it please God for us to keep the law?
2) Is it wrong to keep OT law?

Further, I think the OP made a clear distinction between these questions and issues of whether we are required to keep the law and whether it plays any role in salvation. But, correct me if I'm wrong.

So, for #1, I would reply that I think it pleases God any time we try to do His will - and that would include the law. That seems to be part of what Psalm 19 and Isaiah 58:13-14 is saying. But that must be considered in the context of Psalm 51:16 and Isaiah 64:6. If the law itself becomes your objective, or if pleasing God dribbles over into appeasing God, then you have a problem. It is a razor's edge. The difficulty of it is what makes grace all the more convincing.

With regard to #2, I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping Jewish traditions. I have attended Passover Seders. I have been in synagogues, and respected their code of conduct while I was there. But there are a few caveats. I think many people like to make a fashion of the obscure and mystical. They don't feel "religious" if religious practice is commonplace. It needs to have that oooOOOooo feeling to it. That is wrong. Second, in some ways it is a bit hypocritical to follow a cultural tradition to which you do not belong. My German teacher (born & bred in Germany) used to scoff at the way American Lutherans will talk about how they are "German." "They are American, not German," she would insist. There is a sense in which one is saying the mores & traditions we have here aren't good enough so we have to look elsewhere. Third, and most important, be careful that the tradition you are following is not rooted in a theology which is not Christian. For example, it would be wrong to wear the tilaka of the Hindus (the red dot), because that symbolizes the "inner eye."

Lost Squirrel · Oct 16, 2011

Remember, Mosaic laws are pre-Christ. THEN the law becomes overwhelmed by a theme of love and promises.

What came to my mind was Matthew 15:1-20: that which defiles. Without love, impurity flows out from the hands and mouths. Jesus was a rebel - he rocked the day with violations of the "law" of the time, overturning moneytables and taking in the lowly and outcast. His responses were revolutionary to the tune of letting the law of love, not law of the land, overcome the people and situations he encountered. The phrase, "what is popular is not always right and what is right is not always popular" rings here, too. Jesus often did what was necessary to get the point of love across, above all else, even if it means abandoning tradition. Who cares what we do not eat or burn or wear - is the motive to show honor and glory to God, or does it become enthralled in "mechanics" of delivering - a theology of the cross or a theology of glory?

And yet todays scripture, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's seems to answer your question of if it is pleasing to keep the law. While we do not bathe our altars with the blood offerings, we also do not allow ourselves to become so wrapped up in abiding ritual antiquity such that the Christ-focussed praise is abandoned. We have been charged with a much greater task - to live in the likeness of Christ in trying times - versus upholding the intricacies of the 613 others.

Another simpler concept is to compare the upholding of OT law to the practice of fasting - while it is a fine practice, it should be done to reflect your graceful personal offering of glory, not be done to show woe and suffering for Christ's sake.

mdseverin · Oct 17, 2011

Resha Caner said:
I think the OP was asking 2 questions:
1) Does it please God for us to keep the law?
2) Is it wrong to keep OT law?

Further, I think the OP made a clear distinction between these questions and issues of whether we are required to keep the law and whether it plays any role in salvation. But, correct me if I'm wrong.

So, for #1, I would reply that I think it pleases God any time we try to do His will - and that would include the law. That seems to be part of what Psalm 19 and Isaiah 58:13-14 is saying. But that must be considered in the context of Psalm 51:16 and Isaiah 64:6. If the law itself becomes your objective, or if pleasing God dribbles over into appeasing God, then you have a problem. It is a razor's edge. The difficulty of it is what makes grace all the more convincing.

With regard to #2, I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping Jewish traditions. I have attended Passover Seders. I have been in synagogues, and respected their code of conduct while I was there. But there are a few caveats. I think many people like to make a fashion of the obscure and mystical. They don't feel "religious" if religious practice is commonplace. It needs to have that oooOOOooo feeling to it. That is wrong. Second, in some ways it is a bit hypocritical to follow a cultural tradition to which you do not belong. My German teacher (born & bred in Germany) used to scoff at the way American Lutherans will talk about how they are "German." "They are American, not German," she would insist. There is a sense in which one is saying the mores & traditions we have here aren't good enough so we have to look elsewhere. Third, and most important, be careful that the tradition you are following is not rooted in a theology which is not Christian. For example, it would be wrong to wear the tilaka of the Hindus (the red dot), because that symbolizes the "inner eye."

Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I just get talking points instead of answers to a question.

I understand that some of these laws were for the Israelites, so some of them do not pertain to us. I would never consider following a tradition or practice that was not rooted in Christianity. I also would never follow the law to try to gain anything. I fully know and accept Gods grace.

As I have been praying about this and trying to learn more. It seems that many of these laws were more for protecting the people at the time. For example, pork spoils very quikly in the heat so to keep His nation healthy, He banned pork.

mdseverin · Oct 17, 2011

General Question to all: Do you think the Sabbath is moral or ceremonial law?

Jim47 · Oct 17, 2011

mdseverin
Obviously some of these laws are not applicable today, like the sacrificial laws and punishment/restitution laws. But why dismiss others like the dietary and clothing laws?

There are many things that go into awnsering this. First as DaRev mentioned, ceremonial laws are abolished, and by whom? By our Lord Jesus! So why should we persue them, for if we do then we are not trusting in Jesus' redemptive work, and we feel we need to still follow the law. In other words, this would make us believe that Jesus didn't quite get it all done, so now we have to appease a jealous God who hates sin and imperfection.

In deed we should wear decent clothing so as to not look lude or as is said, to "turn on the opposite sex". But ceremonial clothing was as the bible called was part of their culture, not ours. We live in America and we are in the 21 first century.

Also, do you think it would it be wrong for a Christian to hang a Mezuzah?

I think the OP was asking 2 questions:
1) Does it please God for us to keep the law?
2) Is it wrong to keep OT law?

Whatsa Mezuah? ^_^

Again, I answered this above. We can not keep the law, that is why we need a Savior. We should always try to keep it, that it the 10 commandments, but more importantly we should try to keep Jesus' command.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This is how we are to serve our Lord. Believing that Jesus took our sins away, and spreading the good news to others so that they to may be saved.

Jim47 · Oct 17, 2011

mdseverin said:
General Question to all: Do you think the Sabbath is moral or ceremonial law?

The sabath was a saturday, but we are obeying the commandment by worshipping on sunday, or on any day. We are not bound to a certain day.

The whole reason we are to obey the commandments if for our own good, so that we do not lose faith or go off on our own and foillow other gods.

We are not bennefitting God in any way, rather He guides us to live a decent life and worshipo Him only. He does this only for our good, not His. For if we do not then we perish, and God wants no one to perish.

Mark_Sam · Oct 20, 2011

mdseverin said:
General Question to all: Do you think the Sabbath is moral or ceremonial law?

I always thought of it more as "Ok guys, take a day off; you need it." (Mark 2:27)

Search

Search

Old Testament Laws

mdseverin

Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Word Alone

More options

Mark_Sam

Veteran Newbie

More options

DaRev

Well-Known Member

More options

bbbbbbb

Guest

More options

DaRev

Well-Known Member

More options

Resha Caner

Expert Fool

More options

Lost Squirrel

Seeking the 3rd satalite lock on God's GPS.

More options

mdseverin

Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Word Alone

More options

mdseverin

Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Word Alone

More options

Jim47

Heaven Bound

More options

Jim47

Heaven Bound

More options

Mark_Sam

Veteran Newbie

More options

Similar threads