Where exactly does it say Jesus will return pre-trib?

1Cor15 and 1Thes4, 2 pre trb favorites, both teach that the gathering to Christ happens just after the dead are raised.
there are multiple OT and NT scriptures teaching that the dead are raised on the last day.

this alone defeats pre trib completely.
there are 100's of other ways to defeat it as well....but this one was on my mind this evening.

Biff said:

Where exactly does it say Jesus will return pre-trib?

In Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 it says clearly that Jesus is not coming back until these two things are fulfilled:

1. AFTER the Great Tribulation (verse 29).
2. and After the antichist has been revealed (Verse 3).

He even tells us what to expect on His return: "He will come like Lightning" (Verse 27 and 30)...

and even warns us what not to expect: Matthew 24:25, 26.

Now bits and pieces point to a pre-trib rapture (or to a post trib rapture).

But are we to take and make a fact and doctrines on bits and pieces?? No!!
Now Jesus and Paul said explicity when Jesus was coming back. But are we to believe them??
Or are we to try and nibble away with bits and pieces, making our doctrines out of them and trying to make a whole out of a half, by saying that is wrong, or the Bible is worded wrong??

Think about what I just said! Because IF the Bible is wrong on this in any way, shape, or form, then GOD is a liar.
Biff

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There is not even one scripture that even suggests that the return you are talking about even might be pre-trib. But that return is not the rapture.

The scriptures clearly teach two different "returns" of Christ. One of these is to gather his own and take them to be with himself. The other is coming with his own to judge the world. It is clear that if He is coming for his own and also coming with his own, then the coming for them has to occur before the coming with them. The only reasonable debate about this conclusion is the length of the delay between these two comings.

Post tribbers who are fairly well aware of the scriptures say that this delay will be very short, that Jesus will simply rapture his own as He is on the way down to judge the world.

Pre tribbers say that the delay will be of a much longer time. Most of them say it will be seven years, but others notice that it could be even longer than that.

Mid tribbers say that the delay will be three and a half years.

Pre wrathers say that the delay will be 45 days.

The main point we all need to understand is that EVERY ONE OF THESE POSITIONS IS BASED ON INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.

The Bible simply does not say how long this delay will be. It says various things that make various people come to various conclusions about how long the delay will be, but it most absolutely does not say how long it will be.

My conclusion is that a general understanding of end time prophecy makes the pre-trib conclusion absolutely necessary.

Biblewriter said:

There is not even one scripture that even suggests that the return you are talking about even might be pre-trib. But that return is not the rapture.

The scriptures clearly teach two different "returns" of Christ. One of these is to gather his own and take them to be with himself. The other is coming with his own to judge the world. It is clear that if He is coming for his own and also coming with his own, then the coming for them has to occur before the coming with them. The only reasonable debate about this conclusion is the length of the delay between these two comings.

Post tribbers who are fairly well aware of the scriptures say that this delay will be very short, that Jesus will simply rapture his own as He is on the way down to judge the world.

Pre tribbers say that the delay will be of a much longer time. Most of them say it will be seven years, but others notice that it could be even longer than that.

Mid tribbers say that the delay will be three and a half years.

Pre wrathers say that the delay will be 45 days.

The main point we all need to understand is that EVERY ONE OF THESE POSITIONS IS BASED ON INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.

The Bible simply does not say how long this delay will be. It says various things that make various people come to various conclusions about how long the delay will be, but it most absolutely does not say how long it will be.

My conclusion is that a general understanding of end time prophecy makes the pre-trib conclusion absolutely necessary.

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Biblewriter, you are wrong, based on the evidence written of in my post above.
if 1Thes4's rapture happens after the dead are raised, which it does,
and if the dead are raised on the last day, pre trib is a faulty belief.

you cannot place pre trib rapture after the dead are raised on the last day.
it just isn't possible.

Hi BW,

The scriptures clearly teach two different "returns" of Christ. One of these is to gather his own and take them to be with himself. The other is coming with his own to judge the world. It is clear that if He is coming for his own and also coming with his own, then the coming for them has to occur before the coming with them. The only reasonable debate about this conclusion is the length of the delay between these two comings.

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There is only one return with and for His saints.........................

2 Thess 1:7​

KJV


1 Thess 3:13​

KJV


NT:40​

NT:40​

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KJV​

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- (most) holy (one, thing), saint.​

​

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

He comes with His angels and with the "dead in Christ", who rise first per 1 TH 4. Those that remain are the living saints when He returns. Two groups of saints but one return................those in heaven and those on the earth.

No delay is noted or necessary. The "last day" texts should solve all the problems if taken just as it is stated without any preconceived view.......................

John 6:39​

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And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.​

40 ​

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And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

KJV


John 6:44 ​

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

KJV


John 6:54 ​

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

KJV


John 11:24 ​

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.​

KJV


And here is His Coming in judgment you spoke of .............................

John 12:48 ​

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.​

​

KJV

NOTE: righteous are delivered on the same "last day" that the wicked are judged.

"Think on these things"

Bro Frankie

It has been alleged in this thread that the scriptures present only one future coming of Christ. This is simply incorrect. It is indeed true that the scriptures never explicitly say that He is coming more than one more time. But the Old Testament scriptures also never said He would come more than one time. But they contained details that were mutually exclusive. These should have shown the Jews that He was coming more than once. But they were blind to these differences.
There are likewise numerous details contained in the various scriptures about our Lord's future coming that are mutually exclusive if He were only coming one more time. S few of the most marked of these differences are presented here, but there are many more.

In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading.

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) In the explanation of this parable (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

Now this is radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken from among the righteous. In Matthew 25, the righteous are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked remain, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in Jude 14-15, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15)

In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He “comes with ten thousands of His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two incidents might be, but they clearly indicate a sequence of events. Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the scriptures we have already examined.

Looking again at John 14:2-3, we read, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” In this scripture, our Lord first refers to His Father’s house, saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” He then says that he is going there “to prepare a place for you.” From this statement it is explicitly plain that the place to which He was going “to prepare a place for you” was His “Father’s house.” But He said He was going there “to prepare a place for you” He was going to His “Father’s house,” “to prepare a place for you.” And that is the place from which he “will come again, and receive you unto myself.” But what is the purpose of this coming? “That where I am, there ye may be also.” This scripture does not present a picture of coming, picking us up along the way, and taking us with Himself to another place. It presents a picture of coming to get us and taking us back to where he came from, that is, His “Father’s house.” That is where He has gone “to prepare a place” for us. That is where He is, and that is where he will take us, for the stated purpose of this coming is “that where I am, there you may be also.”

Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel12:11 the prophet was told that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.

The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Here “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout” to gather his own to himself. He comes “with the voice of an archangel,” but no angels are mentioned. But in Matthew 25:31 “the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him.” Again, although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” (And as we have seen, this is after these same angels have gathered the wicked “and cast them into the furnace of fire.” - Matthew 13:50)

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that at that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.”

This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” The questions “who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?” (Malachi 3:2) are radically different from the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” They are also radically different from the statement of Hebrews 9:28 that “To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” This contrast becomes even more stark when we compare the description of “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger” (Isaiah 13:9) with the words “Therefore comfort one another with these words” at the end of the passage describing our Lord’s coming for his own. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

The ancient Jews should have noticed the contrast between the various prophecies about the coming of their Messiah. The Holy Spirit told us that the prophets who uttered them noticed it. “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” (1 Peter 1:10-11) But these ancient scholars loved prophecies about Israel’s future glory, so they concentrated on them, neglecting the equally important prophecies about how their deliverer would suffer. Now that the suffering is over, and the rest of the Holy Scriptures have been given to us, we realize that these prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times.

In like manner, it is our duty to realize that the apparent contradictions between the various scriptures about our Lord's future coming are not contradictions at all, but instead are the evidence that Our Lord is coming back to this earth more than one more time.

*subscribing*

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this.

Are you okay Biff?

//

/

Biff said:

Vinsight4u,

But where does it say that HE is coming back?
Matthew 24 already says it!

Biff

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The Old Testament never said Messiah would come more than once. But the various Old Testament prophecies about his coming contained mutually exclsive details. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the reason for these mutually exclusive details was that He was coming more than once.

The New Testament prophecies about his coming also contain mutually exclusive details. The resolution to this dilemma for the Old Testament prophecies shows us the resolution to the same dilemma for the New Testament prophecies. He is still coming back more than one more time.

For some of the mutually exclusive details about his future coming, see posts 8, 9, and 10 in this thread.

Biff said:

Biblewriter and Vinsight4u,
I simply believe what God says through His word!!! Why am I getting an argument on this??? Not only does Jesus lay out His own doctrine, but He tells men everywhere to obey His words by keeping His doctrines!
I do not say that really means this (Post trib.) or this really means that (Post trib.), nor do I try and give credit to other things (Post trib.), saying that the 24 elders means the (Pre trib.) church, or that Jesus' disciples really do not represent the (Pre trib.) Christians but the (Post trib.) Jews.
And John, in Rev.4:1-2 being "caught up" to (Pre trib.) a sight of heaven, is most ridiculous, when we (post tribbers.) know all about (pre trib.) spiritualization.

Where exactly does any of this teaching say: PRE TRIB.???
Instead I will continue to believe what Jesus and the word of God say and mean, all the days of my life.

Biff

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I simply believe what God said in his word. But I strive to consider all of what He said, not just part of it. I compare scripture with scripture. It is important to consider both the similarities and the differences between apparently parallel passages of scripture. The similarities teach us much, but the differences teach us more. If God changed the wording in two passages that seem to us to be talking about the same thing, that change in wording was made for a reason. It is up to us to learn what message He was conveying when He changed the wording in two similar passages.

My point in this thread has been to demonstrate that the scriptures present more than one future return of Christ.

You incorrectly imagine that the scriptures explicitly say the rapture is post trib because you fail to see that there will be more than one future return of Christ.

In this, you are in the same position as the Rabbis of ancient Israel who failed to see that their scriptures presented their Messiah as not only a mighty conqueror, but also as a suffering savior.

These men wholly missed the differences between various Old Testament descriptions about the coming of their Messiah, and you wholly miss similar differences between the various New Testament passages about his future coming.

You take scriptures about the time when Jesus will come to judge the wicked and assume they are talking about the rapture.

The truth is that no scripture anywhere says when the rapture will occur. No scripture says it is pre-trib, no scripture says it is mid trib. No scripture says it is pre-wrath. And no scripture says it is post trib. Every position about the timing of the rapture is based on interpretation.

Biblewriter said:

The truth is that no scripture anywhere says when the rapture will occur. No scripture says it is pre-trib, no scripture says it is mid trib. No scripture says it is pre-wrath. And no scripture says it is post trib.

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And no scripture says you will be flitting off to heaven when the 1Cor.15 event happens

PS- 1Thes.4 tells ya when it happens. No interpretation neeeded