Noah's Ark

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

drich0150 said:
According to what standard?

According to the Bible bro! God commits genocide, condones slavery, and destroys all of humanity... and that's all in the first few books. The Bible is violent, racist, sexist, and in many instances scientifically unfounded.

drich0150 said:
What do we lack that God does not? A Complete knowledge of His actions or lack of them and the authority to do these things. These actions are not intrinsically evil. It is when man takes on the role of God that makes these acts evil.

What about God commanding the Jews to destroy entire cities, including innocent babies? What about God accepting human sacrifices? What about God setting rules for slavery? Those actions are evil.

drich0150 said:
Again who says? you? who are you to judge God? Are you not doing the very thing you are condemning God for doing? What in you mind gives you the authority, and takes it away from God?

I am not doing the things I am condemning God for. I don't directly or indirectly kill children. I don't think it's right for others to own slaves. I think that women have just an equal opinion as a man. I don't order the killing of homosexuals, rebellious children, or people who say the name of another God!

The fact that he says to "love you neighbor" and "beat your slaves" is extremely hypocritical.

drich0150 said:
Your overly simplified view of "sin" does not take into account all of the other variables God has weighed out when doing things we are not allowed to do.

Like what variables?

drich0150 said:
Because God is not a role model, He is ultimate authority.

Even more reason for him to be above reproach! God is said to be perfect, so how can a perfect being condone and command genocide?

drich0150 said:
Please try and refrain from using cookie cutter assessments of Christianity with out first thinking about what you are saying. If God wanted us to live "perfect lives," or even thought/knew that we could their wouldn't be a need for the sacrifice Christ made. The Fact that Christ died tells us that the perfect life we are to live is a myth from the pit of hell.

I didn't say perfect, I said pure. Big difference.

drich0150 said:
So if God is not a stooge of modern popular culture then He can't be God? Or if "God" is not small enough for your sense of morality to have control over Him then God can't be God?

Did I ever say that? No. The point I was trying to make was that if the Christian God is imperfect then your Bible is a lie. And if your Bible is a lie, then why follow it?

Your statements that I have no morality is garbage. It is apparent, based on your Holy Bible, that I am more moral than your God is. I do not condone slavery. I oppose genocide. I am not racist. I am not sexist. I am not homophobic. I could go for quite a while on how my atheistic morals are superior to many of God's morals.

You implied that if I was born in Nazi Germany that I would hate Jews. I'm not a Nazi in the 30's so I don't know what I would have been like. What if you were an Arab born in 1096AD? You would have probably hated the Jews and Christianity. So, let's stop dealing in the hypothetical and stick to reality.

Is my morality based on my peers... partially, yes. But so are yours. I'm going to assume that you think owning slaves is wrong. So, in that point you differ from God. I'm sure there are many more points that you could differ from God as well.

drich0150 said:
Wow did you come up with that on your own?

And I'm sure that everything you have said here is purely original.

Ok... I'm going to critique you critique...

Let me explain something first. I will say the word sin. I do not mean transgression against God, but what I do mean is doing something bad. IE stealing, murder, condoning slavery. Etc.

Evil is the ultimate expression of sin. I agree with you there. I believe that there are varying degrees of sin (bad things) and that more intense sin requires more harsh punishment. Example: Stealing is less sinful than Murder.

I will agree with you that man has free will. There is no fate, or karma, or some spiritual force that directs our actions. Man chooses their own fate.

Yes, because we have a free will man can choose to be good or be bad. You can choose to steal, or not to steal. To murder, or not to murder. Etc.

It is after this point that I disagree with your comments. You said "By what standard can this finite man judge God." As you said we will judge him by his own standards. God says it's wrong to murder, then why is it ok for him to murder? It's not. Telling someone to run a child through with a sword is murder. So, by God's standards, he himself is guilty of a crime and therefore imperfect.

You said that there is no point in existing without sin and evil... I would say that you are extremely misguided. While I do not believe in an afterlife, I find my life to be so much more meaningful now that I don't. I am enjoying my time on earth so much more, because this is all I get. In my life I want to do the most good I can for myself, my family, and my community. I want to do all these things without the promise of reward or the threat of burning for all eternity if I don't do them.

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

razeontherock said:
Don't pretend I'm the one here who doesn't know what it says. what do YOU suppose Jesus meant by "worthy of stripes?"

And what, you think that I can't understand basic English? I can read, so don't imply that I'm an idiot.

He meant worthy of punishment. Stripes meaning a beating with a whip or some object.

razeontherock said:
Why do you suppose you could see it, when He specifically says you won't be able to unless you're born again?

Ok, that still didn't answer my question. If Christ has already come and set up his kingdom, when did he do it? You claim that I can't see it because I'm not born again, then tell me when it happened? You could give me the day, or the month, or the year... I'll even take a decade that it happened.

razeontherock said:
Exactly where has G-d said or done anything to "support" the concept of what slavery is in YOUR mind? And what have you done to understand what is being said by the same term here? OT Judgments aren't left open for us to interpret you know; they were practiced for 1,000's of years, by people that were pretty fanatical about keeping records. What do you know about any of that?

Slavery - The state of being under the control of another person.
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves..." -Leviticus 25:44
"If you buy a Hebrew slave..." - Exodus 21:2
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave..." - Exodus 21:7

If you say that the above isn't slavery I'm going to be done talking to you about this.

I'm pretty sure that the definition of slave hasn't changed in the past few thousand years. But for you... it is when you pay money or trade good for another human being. And then you force that human being to work for you for no pay. They are considered property, and therefore not human. That is slavery. The Bible says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" II Timothy 3:16. That includes the parts about slavery.

Your arguments on this matter are extremely weak, and it really feels like you are grasping at straws here. You are also trying to divert the subject from what the Bible says to what you think the Bible says. If I am not mistaken, I have quoted more of the Bible than you have... why don't you look in the Bible and try to fight my scripture that I have placed in front of you.

golgotha61 · Oct 8, 2011

If I can direct your attention to post #54 where you say, "Many other atheists found His Bible to contain enough clarity to believe it true." If clarity is not the point, then why use it as an example?

To try and show you that your desire for clarity, according to your demand, is not going to convince you of your need for God's forgiveness and the reality of Christ and His finished work. That is only accomplished by the Holy Spirit who knows your motives and heart better than you do. When you truly desire Christ, the Holy Spirit will bring the clarity you ask for.

The acceptance of any truth, Biblical or otherwise, should be based on clarity. If something cannot be supported by fact, it should not be accepted as truth.

The truth of the Bible is based on historical facts. Generally speaking, most people will accept historical facts as clarity.

You automatically assume that because I'm an atheist that I don't understand the Bible. You are very, very wrong. I ask these questions BECAUSE I understand the Bible. I am seeking answers. You seem upset because you cannot answer them.

Luke 24:44-45 (MSG)
44 Then he said, "Everything I told you while I was with you comes to this: All the things written about me in the Law of Moses, in the Prophets, and in the Psalms have to be fulfilled."
45 He went on to open their understanding of the Word of God, showing them how to read their Bibles this way.

This along with 1 Cor. 2:11, 14 make it clear that one who does know God let alone believe He exists can not know the various truths of the Bible without the illumination of the Holy Spirit. There is only one thing He will make clear to you when you truly desire to know Him and that is your need of a Savior.

drich0150 · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
According to the Bible bro!

Then if you use the bible as a point of reference then you also have to heed the bible when it says God is the giver of life and has the right to also take it as well.

God commits genocide,

Because it is his right to do so.

condones slavery,

Again if we are turning to the bible as a standard the we must accept that it condones slavery. Inorder To condemn God for condoning slavery, you must be using a standard outside of the bible to do so.(pop culture)

and destroys all of humanity...

Actually no He doesn't.
(Noah and his family is apart of Humanity they were saved)

and that's all in the first few books. The Bible is violent, racist, sexist, and in many instances scientifically unfounded.

Again you can not use the bible to condemn what it condones so I ask again what standard are you using to judge God and the bible. (Your answer should be Popular culture if your honest.)

What about God commanding the Jews to destroy entire cities, including innocent babies?

In speaking of absolute knowledge, What if you knew of Hitler when he was a boy, and had an opportunity to stop/kill him? would you? what if their was an entire race of Hitlers that would ultimately destroy mankind what would you do then?

Side note, what are you beliefs on abortion? We as a country since the 60 when it became legal have killed millions of babies and jail those who oppose this act, yet you have said nothing of those babies.
Why didn't your hyprocrisy meter go off on that one?

What about God accepting human sacrifices?

God does not.

What about God setting rules for slavery?

Again, we are all slaves even now. That is despite whether popular culture wants to use this term or not. Because of this we have guidelines to direct us through these facts of life.

Those actions are evil.

Maybe if you use popular culture as you sole guideline.

I am not doing the things I am condemning God for.

You are. You have taken the role of God and have judged God and the bible using your own sense of righteousness to make your judgment work. This is the role of God. This is the role you have condemned. This is the very same role you have emulated in your act of condemnation.

I don't directly or indirectly kill children.

You've never own any cloths that have come from the sweat shops of south east Asia or a owned any knock off product of China?

I don't think it's right for others to own slaves.

Yet you are a slave. If you do not believe this to be true the try and decide to not to sin. If you do not believe you are a slave to society try and have your will go against what society wills for you, if you do not believe you are a slave to another man then quit you job, or go against your mom or who ever pays your bills. You may not believe in slavery, but as a rule most slaves don't. It is only when you see yourself as a slave that you know to look for freedom. You have bought into the illusion of freedom that popular culture offers, what you do not see is the ultimate cost of this pacified "freedom" Your soul.

I think that women have just an equal opinion as a man.

why? Because popular culture tells you so?

I don't order the killing of homosexuals, rebellious children, or people who say the name of another God!

Then don't

The fact that he says to "love you neighbor" and "beat your slaves" is extremely hypocritical.

according to what standard?

Like what variables?

Like who died and what they or how their children or their children's children would impact future events.

Even more reason for him to be above reproach!

How is He not? I said God is not a role model simply because He is privy to knowledge and subsequent actions that no man would be in a position to know or carry out. In other words He can not be your role model because you are not God. You are subject to God and His rules, you are not His equal. Therefore you can not judge His actions as if they were your own. He is authority you are subject to it.

For instance do you judge the actions of a president to the very same degree as you would a citizen? Whether popular culture can accept this answer or not the truth of the matter and History proves the answer to this question is No.

God is said to be perfect, so how can a perfect being condone and command genocide?

Because the taking of life in not an inherently evil act. It is God's right. If it makes it easier for you to understand look at it this way. God gives life and for every life given, one is expected to return this life. This is because the life you have been given is not your own, it belongs to God. so what does it matter if we are allowed to live one min, one day, one year, one hundred years? In the end our life is not our own and will eventually be returned.

To further illustrate the point God has taken back every life He has given with a death except one. so in reality God not only wiped out a few races in the OT He has and continues to kill every single person on this earth. No one escapes death.
So again what does it matter how long you live? you will still die. It is only a great sin to those who worship life to take it or cut it short.

I didn't say perfect, I said pure. Big difference.

My argument is the same. None are perfect none are pure. Even if you see a difference here the bible nor God looks through the lenses of popular culture as you do.

Did I ever say that? No. The point I was trying to make was that if the Christian God is imperfect then your Bible is a lie. And if your Bible is a lie, then why follow it?

Let me help you understand. What I am saying is that you are using modern popular culture as a standard to judge God's "perfectness." Because of this that means God would have to be a "stooge of modern pop culture" to meet this standard. In turn If he can not meet the stand of modern pop culture you are saying, "He can not be God."

Your statements that I have no morality is garbage.

(Taken from a previous post)No, because "morality" is man's attempt to reconfigure the righteousness of God to include the sins he is willing to live with. In other words "morality" is a Failed attempt at God's stated righteousness. One does not have to be a "Christian" to fail to obtain true righteousness. Therefore you can have morality, it's just tied to popular culture rather any true standard of righteousness. Because "morality" is just the illusion of True Righteousness.

It is apparent, based on your Holy Bible, that I am more moral than your God is. I do not condone slavery. I oppose genocide. I am not racist. I am not sexist. I am not homophobic. I could go for quite a while on how my atheistic morals are superior to many of God's morals.

You are confused or simple will not understand that it is not the bible that defines your sense of right and wrong. It is the culture you live in or rather the popular stances of the culture you live in that determine right and wrong for you. Which again was popular in 1930's Germany.

You implied that if I was born in Nazi Germany that I would hate Jews. I'm not a Nazi in the 30's so I don't know what I would have been like.

It would be very easy to determine your actions with relative certainty, by simply examining your core behaviors and apply them to the popular standards of the time. This mean that it is very likely that you would simply follow the crowd in 1930' Germany just as you are doing right now. Because again your standards are tied to what popular culture dictates. This is why Socialism in the German economy took such a strong hold. Because many thought and behave as you are right now.

What if you were an Arab born in 1096AD? You would have probably hated the Jews and Christianity. So, let's stop dealing in the hypothetical and stick to reality.

We can also take my life and my core values and apply them to that time as well. I can honestly say it would look like I would have died a martyrs death.

Is my morality based on my peers... partially, yes.

Finally progress

But so are yours.

Not in the least.

I'm going to assume that you think owning slaves is wrong.

nope.

My Grandfather on my mothers side died a slave. He and his family were captured by the empire of Japan his family lands ceased, and he was put to work as a slave feeding the imperial army by farming rice, and when He was old enough was conscribed in their army. So when the Korean war came around it was no surprise that He left and came here with his family. the only thing was He had to become a "share crop farmer" to do so growing and selling Korean veggies to other Koreans in the area. He worked for the "man" till He had a stroke and later died 30 years latter trying to pay back a debt. This if nothing else has taught me the true meaning of slavery even if my "peers" wish to ignore it in their own lives.

So, in that point you differ from God.

Guess again

I'm sure there are many more points that you could differ from God as well.

This is the problem you seem to have with the bible. In that because your sense of morality conflicts you believe that your sense of morality trumps or should trump the morality of God. The problem is that neither you nor the society you live in has this authority to dictate terms of "morality" to God. Morality is not righteousness. Morality is a failed attempt at righteousness.

And I'm sure that everything you have said here is purely original.

Everything I have said to you is based in scripture, but at the same time everything I have said did originate from me. Even when I take from one of my previous posts I have indicated the source material.

drich0150 · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
Ok... I'm going to critique you critique...

by all means

Let me explain something first. I will say the word sin. I do not mean transgression against God, but what I do mean is doing something bad. IE stealing, murder, condoning slavery. Etc.

If sin is not a transgression against God what makes it "bad?" Because in the right circumstances stealing, murder, condoning slavery can all be justified in our culture. Just look at this nations past, with what we stole from the Indians, French, or the people that were killed, or the countless slaves that were owned.. All with in the social norms of the day.

Evil is the ultimate expression of sin. I agree with you there. I believe that there are varying degrees of sin (bad things) and that more intense sin requires more harsh punishment. Example: Stealing is less sinful than Murder.

God tells us all sin is the same. There are some that He hates more like gossip or "feet that are quick to shed blood." (People who are quick to judge)

I will agree with you that man has free will. There is no fate, or karma, or some spiritual force that directs our actions. Man chooses their own fate.

This is not "Free Will" Free Will is the ability to sin. you are describing freedom of Choice.

Yes, because we have a free will man can choose to be good or be bad. You can choose to steal, or not to steal. To murder, or not to murder. Etc.

agree

It is after this point that I disagree with your comments. You said "By what standard can this finite man judge God." As you said we will judge him by his own standards.

again your decision to judge God is not backed with any authority. What power do you have to judge God? How will your judgment be carried out?

God says it's wrong to murder, then why is it OK for him to murder?

Killing and Murder are not the same thing. Killing is the sanctioned taking of life. Murder is an unsanctioned taking of life. We all die or killed at some point. It is only wrong when one outside the authority of God decides to "kill/Murder" on his own accord.

Telling someone to run a child through with a sword is murder. So, by God's standards, he himself is guilty of a crime and therefore imperfect.

No He is not. If God sanctioned the taking of life then it is sanctioned no matter the age or method. What you fail to understand is that All life belongs to God. It is His right to give it and take it back as He see fit. Only one who worships life in place of God would think otherwise.. And I guess we found the source of your "authority to judge God."

You said that there is no point in existing without sin and evil...

I said their is no point in existing with out True Choice.

I would say that you are extremely misguided.

I would say the same for you and then suggest that you take the time to read what i took the time to write.

While I do not believe in an afterlife, I find my life to be so much more meaningful now that I don't.

Then why spend so much time and energy defending what you believe now? I believe in God and an after life but do not see a need to find an "Atheist forums.com" to convince any of you. I am content in helping those of you who are seeking answer about God when you come here looking for them.

I am enjoying my time on earth so much more, because this is all I get. In my life I want to do the most good I can for myself, my family, and my community. I want to do all these things without the promise of reward or the threat of burning for all eternity if I don't do them.

Here you seem to be misguided about Heaven and Hell. Heaven is not a reward for the good deed doers, like wise Hell is not a place for those who do not do good deeds.

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

golgotha61 said:
To try and show you that your desire for clarity, according to your demand, is not going to convince you of your need for God's forgiveness and the reality of Christ and His finished work. That is only accomplished by the Holy Spirit who knows your motives and heart better than you do. When you truly desire Christ, the Holy Spirit will bring the clarity you ask for.

Stop preaching, and at least try and answer the questions I have asked.

golgotha61 said:
The truth of the Bible is based on historical facts. Generally speaking, most people will accept historical facts as clarity.

Ok, so I am going to write a book. This book will contain some very historical facts. Specific dates and events that are happening now. In this book I will place a large amount of theology. It will contain information about my god named Davis. It will tell the story of how Davis created the world and he provides a way for man to enter into his heaven by being a very good person. I will then bury this book in the ground. 500 years from now someone will find this book. Should they accept this book as the authoritative word of God? No, that would be ridiculous. Just because something contains 100% accurate historical facts doesn't mean the book is 100% correct cover to cover.

golgotha61 said:
45 He went on to open their understanding of the Word of God, showing them how to read their Bibles this way.

This along with 1 Cor. 2:11, 14 make it clear that one who does know God let alone believe He exists can not know the various truths of the Bible without the illumination of the Holy Spirit. There is only one thing He will make clear to you when you truly desire to know Him and that is your need of a Savior.

No offense, but this just seems like a very clever cop out.

razeontherock · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
I can read, so don't imply that I'm an idiot.

He meant worthy of punishment. Stripes meaning a beating with a whip or some object.

Is this why you're not answering the question, because you feel it's beneath you? You still haven't addressed what Jesus meant by "worthy of stripes." (Or punishment) If you look back to the conversation when I first raised this point, you will see there is indeed a point.

mmcneely said:
Ok, that still didn't answer my question. If Christ has already come and set up his kingdom, when did he do it?

The day of Pentecost. Do you know what that is based on?

mmcneely said:
Slavery - The state of being under the control of another person.

If you say that the above isn't slavery I'm going to be done talking to you about this.

I'm pretty sure that the definition of slave hasn't changed in the past few thousand years.

Actually the practice has - dramatically! Today, most people have a picture consistent with the movie "Roots." What you see in the Bible is instruction to recognize your servant is human, and to treat them with dignity and respect. What you fail to deal with is the economic realities of the day, w/o washing machines, running water, etc.

You also fail to consider the reality of the working poor. US had a period when "the company store" had workers literally going into debt to the Co they worked for! US slavery at it's worst "paid" their slaves better than that, as they had room and board. They usually didn't work as hard, either.

You display a lot of misconceptions about what the Bible has to say about it, and you have no idea how to go about determining how the Law was actually carried out. (Which is all available to you, no need for your speculations)

mmcneely said:
why don't you look in the Bible and try to fight my scripture that I have placed in front of you.

Sorry but I don't "fight Scripture." I understand it. What you do amounts to taking an English word, and supposing that your understanding of that English word is what the original Author meant, which is a foolish assumption. When we encounter Scripture that is obviously amiss, we're supposed to look closer ...

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

drich0150 said:
Then if you use the bible as a point of reference then you also have to heed the bible when it says God is the giver of life and has the right to also take it as well...

So, you think slavery is ok? You think genocide is ok? You think rape ok? You think murder, human sacrifice, and the killing of many types of people just because God says they are evil is ok? You make me sick man. Fine, my standard is pop culture... you can say it's whatever standard you want. If this is the positions that God takes on these positions then I really don't want anything to do with them.

drich0150 said:
In speaking of absolute knowledge, What if you knew of Hitler when he was a boy, and had an opportunity to stop/kill him? would you? what if their was an entire race of Hitlers that would ultimately destroy mankind what would you do then?

Ok, hypothetically if I knew Hitler as a child, and knew what he would do, would I kill him? No I wouldn't. I would mentor him. Train him. Educate him. I believe that murder is wrong, so why would I murder a small child.

If I knew that there was an "entire race" (That an extremely racist statement by the way. There is only one race of humans on this planet) of potentially evil Hitlers, would I kill them? No. Same answer as above.

Don't we all have free will from God? If you answer yes, then I have won this argument. If you answer no, then I will not only win the argument, but I will be able to stomp your version of God into the ground. Either way, I win so you should just stop here.

drich0150 said:
Side note, what are you beliefs on abortion? We as a country since the 60 when it became legal have killed millions of babies and jail those who oppose this act, yet you have said nothing of those babies. Why didn't your hyprocrisy meter go off on that one?

I didn't bring it up because it didn't come up. You guys have taken this tread so off topic it isn't funny. Anyways, since you opened that can of worms here is what I have to say about abortion. I think it's wrong. As much scientific advancement we can achieve through stem cell research killing an unborn child to do so is wrong.

Here is your God's stance on it:

Hosea 3:16 - Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

2 Kings 15:16 - Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.

drich0150 said:
God does not.

This was speaking about God accepting human sacrifices. Please read Judges 11:29-40, Joshua 7:15, Kings 13:1-2, 2 Kings 23:20-25, and Deuteronomy 13:13-19. These are five instances of ritual human sacrifice that God commands.

drich0150 said:
Again, we are all slaves even now...

Don't give me that garbage. How are we all slaves? Nobody owns me. I am free to go where I want. I receive payment for my work. And nobody beats me with a stick if I don't do what they say. Yes, we have punishment for crimes, but that is called civilization, not slavery.

drich0150 said:
You are. You have taken the role of God and have judged God and the bible using your own sense of righteousness to make your judgment work. This is the role of God. This is the role you have condemned. This is the very same role you have emulated in your act of condemnation.

Ok, let's say I agree with you (This is hypothetical so don't twist my words). I clearly have a better sense of morality. I do not advocate murder, advocate abortion, advocate slavery, advocate racism, advocate sexism, command human sacrifice, etc, etc, etc. God advocates all of these things (as I have shown you directly from the Bible.) So, who is more righteous?

drich0150 said:
You've never own any cloths that have come from the sweat shops of south east Asia or a owned any knock off product of China?

I don't believe so. And if I did know (I'm not omnipotent) I would stop.

drich0150 said:
Yet you are a slave. If you do not believe this to be true the try and decide to not to sin. If you do not believe you are a slave to society try and have your will go against what society wills for you, if you do not believe you are a slave to another man then quit you job, or go against your mom or who ever pays your bills. You may not believe in slavery, but as a rule most slaves don't. It is only when you see yourself as a slave that you know to look for freedom. You have bought into the illusion of freedom that popular culture offers, what you do not see is the ultimate cost of this pacified "freedom" Your soul.

Yawn... I don't have time for conspiracy theories. I won't quit my job because it is a good job, and allows me to provide for my family. I have been independent from my mother for about eight years now.

Maybe you should quit your job (if you have one) and maybe you should go against your mom (because your probably still living at home.) Otherwise you would be a hypocrite for asking me to do so.

drich0150 said:
why? Because popular culture tells you so?

This was in regards to women having an equal opinion to men. By this statement you are extremely sexist. I don't even need to respond.

drich0150 said:
How is He not? I said God is not a role model simply because He is privy to knowledge and subsequent actions that no man would be in a position to know or carry out. In other words He can not be your role model because you are not God. You are subject to God and His rules, you are not His equal. Therefore you can not judge His actions as if they were your own. He is authority you are subject to it.

If God knows everything then we have no free will... just the illusion of it. This means God has already picked the people who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. I now understand why you've said the things you have.

drich0150 said:
Because the taking of life in not an inherently evil act.

In the verses that I have mentioned above it IS an evil act. God was not acting in self-defense. God was not defending his family. God was not walking along the road one day and accidentally stepped on a city. He intentionally elected to murder millions of people since Genesis. And if God knows everything, and everything is guided by his "loving" hand then God is even responsible for the Crusades, the Holocaust, 911, and many other acts of murder.

drich0150 said:
We can also take my life and my core values and apply them to that time as well. I can honestly say it would look like I would have died a martyrs death.

Wow, you are misguided. Your thoughts and actions are guided by Christian pop culture. And if you were born into a Muslim family you wold most likely be singing the praises of Allah right now. There is no way that you could have been born in Iraq and spontaneously been a Christian. If I were to guess, based on your conversation here, you would have probably been one of the men that bombed the WTC.

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

drich0150 said:
If sin is not a transgression against God what makes it "bad?" Because in the right circumstances stealing, murder, condoning slavery can all be justified in our culture. Just look at this nations past, with what we stole from the Indians, French, or the people that were killed, or the countless slaves that were owned.. All with in the social norms of the day.

I'm not talking about our nations past. I'm talking about now. I'm talking about today. I'm talking about having a higher morality standard than generations past. Murder (The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.) and slavery (The practice or system of owning slaves.) Are wrong regardless of the "social norm."

drich0150 said:
This is not "Free Will" Free Will is the ability to sin. you are describing freedom of Choice.

Explain the difference then.

drich0150 said:
No He is not. If God sanctioned the taking of life then it is sanctioned no matter the age or method. What you fail to understand is that All life belongs to God. It is His right to give it and take it back as He see fit.

Life does not belong to God, because there is no God. I don't know how you can sit there and say that baby killing is ok.

drich0150 said:
I said their is no point in existing with out True Choice.

Post #98. "Without "Sin and Evil" there is not point of been given this existence." Direct quote.

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

razeontherock said:
Is this why you're not answering the question, because you feel it's beneath you? You still haven't addressed what Jesus meant by "worthy of stripes." (Or punishment) If you look back to the conversation when I first raised this point, you will see there is indeed a point.

Worthy of stripes means worthy of a beating! What more clarification do you need?

Ok, your comments on slavery are completely wrong. Yes, the US has done some real shady stuff. I'm not going to argue it, and neither am I the US so don't imply that I own/am a slave. And, we are not talking about America, we are talking about God. Someone who is supposed to be pure and holy and righteous above anything that man can be. If God condones baby killing and slavery then he is not perfect! Don't try and change the subject.

GrayAngel · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
According to the Bible bro! God commits genocide, condones slavery, and destroys all of humanity... and that's all in the first few books. The Bible is violent, racist, sexist, and in many instances scientifically unfounded.

Genocide? Nope. His people slaughtered their enemies in war, which is what you do in war (at least back when wars could actually be won).

Slavery? Nope. The Bible does not say anything positive or negative about slavery, unless you're talking about slavery to Christ. The Bible gives guidelines to how Christian masters should treat their slaves, and how Christian slaves should serve their masters, both for the purpose of shining God's light into the world.

Also, slavery was different back then. It in no way resembled the slavery of our recent Western history. It was not based on race, slaves were not farmed or beaten like animals, and they did not serve for their entire lives. Slaves were treated as a member of the family, even the slaves that were taken as survivors of war were grafted in. The Egyptians definitely didn't treat their slaves so kindly.

Usually, slavery was something the slave chose for themselves, in order to be able to pay off some insurmountable amount of debt. And it was also customary for the Jews to release their slaves after a certain amount of time (don't remember the exact details).

Destroys humanity? Yep. You overlook one simple fact: we all deserve God's wrath. Any life we have is a gift of mercy from God. In the case of the Ark, if you're going to assume the Bible is true (as you are now, in saying that He caused the flood), then you must assume that the rest of the conditions are also true. And that means that everyone was wicked. Noah was permitted to search the world for godly people, and if he could succeed, God would not destroy the world, but Noah came up dry. He could not find one single person whose heart was not evil.

Violent? This is the third time you've listed the same thing, only you use different words to describe it.

Racist? Where is race even mentioned in the Bible? God doesn't care about our skin color. In God's eyes, there is no male or female, Jew or Gentile, slave or freeman. God judges us by our hearts, not our physical bodies or status.

Sexist? Nope. You're clearly just listing things you've been hearing from other people, accepting them without any critical thought. Godly women were very much cherished in the Bible, even when the human culture of the time considered them lesser beings. Like with any other subject, however, you can take verses out of context and make it seem like God hates women. Remember, even Satan himself used scripture, but just like Christ rejected Satan's false interpretations, no one with a proper understanding of scripture will agree with your interpretations.

Scientifically unfounded? Sounds like an appeal to ignorance. If there's no scientific evidence that an event in the Bible actually happened, does that mean it didn't happen? No.

And I like the wording you chose to use: "in many instances scientifically unfounded." Can't argue with that. Much of the Bible isn't scientifically founded, but much more of the Bible is scientifically founded. I believe they call this sort of device a weaseler. I can't blame you for choosing to ignore the evidence for that is there, though. It's pretty hard to explain how the walls of the impregnable city of Jericho managed to get its walls to fall from the inside out, conveniently allowing any of their enemies--say, the Hebrews, for example--to rush in and destroy them, just as the Bible says.

forGod1 · Oct 8, 2011

This guy believes in Christ, but doesn't want to live accordingly because of his own mis-conceptions?

drich0150 · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
So, you think slavery is OK?

Click to expand...

As God outlines it.. Yes!

You think genocide is OK?

Click to expand...

As God institutes it Yes!!

You think rape OK?

Click to expand...

Don't know that God commanded anyone to rape anyone else, but if He did..

You think murder,

Click to expand...

Murder is Never OK. (Unsanctioned taking of Human life.)

human sacrifice,

Click to expand...

This is a fav goto for you, so I ask that you provide book chapter and verse for this.

and the killing of many types of people just because God says they are evil is OK?

Click to expand...

Yes!!!

You make me sick man. Fine, my standard is pop culture... you can say...

Click to expand...

So you have just cemented your fate. This means that no matter what culture you are placed in you will find justification for whatever it is this culture does.. Even if it kills babies by the millions just because they are not convenient. You may wish to believe that you are in a high and mighty position, but in reality you are a tool for your peers to use to separate themselves from God. If you really wonder what you would have done in Nazi controlled Germany, know with certainty it would have been whatever your peers told you to do. Why can we say this now? Because it is without remorse that you do the very same, even in the light of the mistakes those in Nazi Germany had made.(You are following in their foots steps by following a peer/pop culture based morality, and do not even seem to be aware of it.)

OK, hypothetically if I knew Hitler as a child, and knew what he would do, would I kill him? No I wouldn't. I would mentor him.

Click to expand...

Then it would have been you who was responsible for the millions he killed.

If I knew that there was an "entire race" Same answer as above.

Click to expand...

You live with in a people who kill babies because they do not want them to interfere with their lives now!! So please, tell me of all that you have done to stop this mass infanticide that pales every single biblical story of the sort by the power of 10. How many babies have you saved?
how many pamphlets have you given out how many times have you counseled a scared mother? How many times have you interrupted you life to save another or at least make the attempt? Is what you have done enough? can you do more?

Don't we all have free will from God? If you answer yes, then I have won this argument. If you answer no, then ..

Click to expand...

you know when you have to tell someone you have "won an argument" chances are that you haven't. What I see is someone who wants an argument to stop because he is not getting the "cookie cutter" arguments he knows how to argue against.

We do not have "free will from God" Because it is a gift from God that we have Free will. not only do, We have the ability to choose a will outside the expressed will of God, we have been provided the necessary atonement so that if we wish to spend eternity with God, we can still find the righteousness we need to make our decision count.

I didn't bring it up because it didn't come up. You guys have taken this tread so off topic it isn't funny. As much scientific advancement we can achieve through stem cell research killing an unborn child to do so is wrong.

Click to expand...

Again so what have you done to stop it?

Here is your God's stance on it:

Hosea 3:16 - Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Click to expand...

ah... no Hosea 3 only goes to verse 5.

2 Kings 15:16 - Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.

Click to expand...

Ah...no These were the actions of a short reigned King. these were not sanctioned actions or commands of God.

This was speaking about God accepting human sacrifices. Please read Judges 11:29-40,

Click to expand...

Ah...No. Nowhere in this passage or the next does it say God commanded that this happen, nor does it even record that the daughter was even sacrificed.

Joshua 7:15,

Click to expand...

Ah... no, this following passage outlines a death by fire that will befall on anyone who commits a very specific sin. This is not a command for human sacrifice.

Kings 13:1-2,

Click to expand...

ah... no, are you even reading the passages you are putting out there?
1 Kings 1

Adonijah Sets Himself Up as King

1 When King David was very old, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. 2 So his attendants said to him, Let us look for a young virgin to serve the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.

2 Kings 23:20-25,

Click to expand...

ah..no This passage is not a command from God to perform a human sacrifice. It is the recorded actions of Josiah. try again.

and Deuteronomy 13:13-19. These are five instances of ritual human sacrifice that God commands.

Click to expand...

Ah... no

This again is the consequence for sin. God is not asking for human sacrifice. He is commanding that an entire town to be burned and everything and everyone in it for worshiping another God.
Try again... (Punishment for a very specific sin)

Don't give me that garbage. How are we all slaves?

Click to expand...

I have already explained this. are you not reading my posts?

Nobody owns me. I am free to go where I want. I receive payment for my work.

Click to expand...

You receive cash or credit and colonial slaves received room and board, horses, mules, chickens, goats, cows, land, educations, cloths and even money for their services as well. But so did/does everyone else. The lack compensation is not a bench mark of slavery. A slave is bound to what He does, in that even if He wanted to change his actions he could not.A slave is one who must surrender his will to that of another. Sound familiar?

If you do not believe your self to be bound to what you do, then quit your job, try and stop sinning, or go against the society that has given you your "morality." and see how long you last. You are bound to your masters just the same as your colonial counterparts. the only difference is that you have been successfully fooled into thinking you are "free."

And nobody beats me with a stick if I don't do what they say.

Click to expand...

Maybe not, but being beaten by a stick is not the only way to punish a slave. they were placed in prison yes? If you do not think yourself to be a slave of this society then go against your societal masters and see where you wind up.

Yes, we have punishment for crimes, but that is called civilization, not slavery.

Click to expand...

a rose by any other name... You may call it what you will, in the end it is still the suppression of an individual will, thought or deed. So you see not all slavery is bad. slavery with the common good in mind can be a very beneficial thing.. (Like with in the confines of a civilization) It's just getting those of you who have closed your minds to anything society deems as "bad" can be a bit of a chore to see past your own versions of righteousness.

OK, let's say I agree with you (This is hypothetical so don't twist my words). I clearly have a better sense of morality. I do not advocate murder, advocate abortion, advocate slavery, advocate racism, advocate sexism, command human sacrifice, etc, etc, etc. God advocates all of these things (as I have shown you directly from the Bible.) So, who is more righteous?

Click to expand...

One as I have demonstrated your biblical references can only be considered legitimate if and only if you take the passages out of context and ignore what is actually being recorded.

Two. as i have already pointed out none of these thing you keep mentioning are intrinsically evil. Meaning they do not have an evil value on their own. What makes them evil is who is doing these acts and why.

That said know that Righteousness is the Standard of God. As such know that whatever God does is indeed "righteous." So to answer you question directly god is always more righteous.

That is like asking who is more Drich.. You or me. No matter what I do it will always be in my character to do it. At best you can only hope to be a cheap copy.

I don't believe so. And if I did know (I'm not omnipotent) I would stop.

Click to expand...

You would literally would have to go off the grid to do that. how do you feel about living like a quaker?

Yawn... I don't have time for conspiracy theories.

Click to expand...

I won't quit my job because it is a good job, and allows me to provide for my family.

Click to expand...

Exactly.. Because you know you are Bound to your Job in order to provide for your family... again compensation is not the bench mark for slavery. It is being bound to someone or some thing. That their will supersedes your own.

Maybe you should quit your job (if you have one) and maybe you should go against your mom (because your probably still living at home.) Otherwise you would be a hypocrite for asking me to do so.

Click to expand...

I know that I am a slave what would be the point?

This was in regards to women having an equal opinion to men. By this statement you are extremely sexist. I don't even need to respond.

Click to expand...

Why? because pop culture based self righteousness says you do not have to, or because you do not know what to say?

If God knows everything then we have no free will...

Click to expand...

Again you have confused "Free will" with the Greek philosophers doctrine of freedom of choice. not the same thing.

just the illusion of it. This means God has already picked the people who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. I now understand why you've said the things you have.

Click to expand...

such as??

In the verses that I have mentioned above it IS an evil act. God was not acting in self-defense. God was not defending his family. God was not walking along the road one day and accidentally stepped on a city. He intentionally elected to murder millions of people since Genesis. And if God knows everything, and everything is guided by his "loving" hand then God is even responsible for the Crusades, the Holocaust, 911, and many other acts of murder.

Click to expand...

This is not how the bible defines sin and evil:
Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God and Evil is the malicious intent to commit sin. Not all sin is evil but all evil is indeed sin. So you see God can not commit an evil act because no matter what He does it would be in His will to do so.

Wow, you are misguided. Your thoughts and actions are guided by Christian pop culture.

Click to expand...

Actually no. I am a bit extreme for pop Christianity.

And if you were born into a Muslim family you wold most likely be singing the praises of Allah right now.

Click to expand...

I made out of Buddhism, and Atheism, at the expense of alienating my family for a time, I would like to think i could also make it out of the clutches of alah.

There is no way that you could have been born in Iraq and spontaneously been a Christian.

Click to expand...

Their are Christians in Iraq. I employed a religious refugee for a time. (He was allowed to leave because of his beliefs, he has only been in the states for a year) He found Christ, and so do many many others according to Him.
Many over there hate the oppressive nature of Islam, and if they can find the freedom offered by Christ they relish it to the point of martyrdom.

If I were to guess, based on your conversation here, you would have probably been one of the men that bombed the WTC

Click to expand...

Then again you could be right. Maybe it was best that I was born when and where i was. Either way I am and will remain faithful to what i have. Since I have been lead to Christ, I will and intend to be faithful to him to my last.

Do you have the same commitment to pop culture? What happens when China takes over? (you do know that their culture is different)

Click to expand...

drich0150 · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
I'm not talking about our nations past. I'm talking about now. I'm talking about today. I'm talking about having a higher morality standard than generations past. Murder (The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.) and slavery (The practice or system of owning slaves.) Are wrong regardless of the "social norm."

What I am saying is that because your righteousness is tied to the "Social Norm" then that means you are in turn a slave to what ever society deems as the norm. Example: We may not have slaves but we wholesale slaughter babies. and you have justified this with the scientific benefits that comes from twisting up the remains.

Explain the difference then.

I have several times go back and look it up

Life does not belong to God, because there is no God. I don't know how you can sit there and say that baby killing is OK.

Straw man Fallacy. go back and try again.

Post #98. "Without "Sin and Evil" there is not point of been given this existence." Direct quote.

and why have we been given sin and evil? Go back to post 98 and put my quote back into it's proper context.

mmcneely · Oct 8, 2011

GrayAngel said:
Genocide? Nope. His people slaughtered their enemies in war, which is what you do in war (at least back when wars could actually be won).

Killing a man on the field of battle is different than slaughtering an innocent child in it's crib.

GrayAngel said:
Slavery? Nope. The Bible does not say anything positive or negative about slavery...

First of all, slavery is slavery. Owning a human being is always wrong no matter the time or culture.

Secondly, if you don't think the Bible doesn't say anything positive or negative you need to reread my posts.

GrayAngel said:
Sexist? Nope.

Really? Telling women to shut up in church, and that they should have no authority over men? Objectifying them by allowing fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves?

GrayAngel said:
Scientifically unfounded? Sounds like an appeal to ignorance. If there's no scientific evidence that an event in the Bible actually happened, does that mean it didn't happen? No.

Does it mean that it did happen? No.

GrayAngel said:
And I like the wording you chose to use: "in many instances scientifically unfounded." Can't argue with that. Much of the Bible isn't scientifically founded, but much more of the Bible is scientifically founded.

What scientific evidence then? Please, enlighten me.

Kid A · Oct 8, 2011

It is purely illogical to believe that Noah's Ark is anything other than Judean folklore, likely inspired by real (scientifically reasonable) events (there was a king who lived by the Red Sea, and a notable flood occurred, and he stocked all he owned in an Ark... the story plays out quite similar to Noah's Ark) or mythology from other cultures, likely the Babylonians or Assyrians. To believe the story literally is to put faith in man (the author) and not God - who is truth. And in truth, is reason.

There are a few broad logical fallacies:

1) The amount of living sentient creatures on this planet is in the millions at least, if you want to get to every single individual species. Not all species have even been identified. Even if you used a shrink ray to make them all the size of an ant, it would not be fathomable to fit every species on that ark.

2) The earth does not supply enough water for a worldwide flood to be possible. If all the water in all it's forms - liquid, gas, and ice - were reduced solely to liquid which sat upon the land, it would not cover the entire earth, even if it were only one water molecule touching another. It simply isn't possible that there was such a flood.

3) Other people had boats, some larger. Did they not float as well?

When people take some of these stories literally, they're missing the entire point of the story - the thesis - the lesson. That was a book written by, and for, uneducated desert people. Knowing what we know now, it is entirely unreasonable to assert that yes - the story is factually accurate.

GrayAngel · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
Killing a man on the field of battle is different than slaughtering an innocent child in it's crib.

Not if your goal is to destroy your enemy completely, not giving them the chance to recover. Wars were fought differently back then.

mmcneely said:
First of all, slavery is slavery. Owning a human being is always wrong no matter the time or culture.

This is nothing but your own opinion. You can't win an argument based on only opinions.

mmcneely said:
Secondly, if you don't think the Bible doesn't say anything positive or negative you need to reread my posts.

I've seen you are quite talented at taking verses out of context and inferring your own meanings into them.

mmcneely said:
Really? Telling women to shut up in church, and that they should have no authority over men? Objectifying them by allowing fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves?

Are you incapable of objective thought? It's pretty easy to describe something in such a manner than it seems impossible to disagree with.

Ex: Liberals are a group of murderers. How could anyone justify the slaughtering of innocent children by the masses (abortion)?

Problem is, if your opponent doesn't share the same standards as your own, they're not going to see things in the same light as you.

Telling women to sit silently in church: This was a cultural thing, and had nothing to do with worth. From that point in time to even our modern history in much of the world, men were educated and women were not. I suspect Paul wanted the women to keep silent partially for this reason, so that they could learn from the men who were educated in the scriptures.

It also has to do with authority. Men were the head of the house, and were the spiritual leaders of their homes. For women to speak out would have been a breach of authority. That would be like if I jumped up on stage in the middle of a pastor's sermon and started preaching myself.

It's not an issue of worth. Remember, in God's eyes, there is no male or female, yet they are expected to fulfill different roles. The life of an usher is not any less valuable than the life of a pastor. Neither is the life of a man worth more than the life of a woman.

Sex slaves? What on earth are you talking about? They had arranged marriages, and this is far different from sex slave trade.

Yes, It was traditional for a man to pay his fiance's father because of that father's loss. It was also traditional for the father to give his daughter coins, representing how much the father values/loves her (hence the parable of the lost coin).

The woman could not choose her man (that's the arranged part), but they did not want to go unmarried. There weren't very many choices for a woman back then. Either you were somebody's wife, maybe a widow, or you grew up to be an old maid.

mmcneely said:
Does it mean that it did happen? No.

It's still an appeal to ignorance. You can't say, "There's no evidence for A, therefore A didn't happen."

There's no evidence that dinosaurs didn't used to break dance, can we conclude then one way or another based on this lack of evidence?

mmcneely said:
What scientific evidence then? Please, enlighten me.

I just gave you one. Seriously, it's not that hard to find. Open up a search engine and type "Archaeological evidence of the Bible" and you'll find endless resources.

EDIT: I'll go ahead and post a link to one website I located via Bing in only a few seconds. I like this one, but I'm sure there are countless others like it: http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

razeontherock · Oct 8, 2011

mmcneely said:
This was speaking about God accepting human sacrifices. These are five instances of ritual human sacrifice that God commands.

Sorry but no, you are wrong. In no way does this follow the pattern God laid out for ritual sacrifice. You are confused. These are difficult passages you cite, so it's not unusual to have problems trying to understand them, but what you present here is not reasonable.

mmcneely said:
I clearly have a better sense of morality. I do not advocate abortion, who is more righteous?

You have NOT shown God to "advocate abortion."

Grumpy Old Man · Oct 8, 2011

drich0150 said:
Don't know that God commanded anyone to rape anyone else, but if He did..

Would you rape a woman if you believed God told you to?

razeontherock · Oct 8, 2011

God would not tell any of us to rape someone. The suggestion is perverse.

The blood and gore of the OT, most specifically Moses and Joshua, is not so controversial when you look at it's modern day application; i.e., what G-d actually tells us to do today:

mortify our flesh. Our OWN fleshly desires, not somebody else's physical existence. This is really not so difficult a concept to grasp, and studying the language bears this out completely. (One of those things easier said than done)

If you look at what "God told people to do back then," even this is controversial. Jews teach that Joshua was wrong, and should have waited to enter Canaan until it's inhabitants were dead. Yes, this means that those gruesome accounts were not ordered or written by God, but by man. That is Judaism.

Hope this clears things up a little.

Noah's Ark

Newbie

Newbie

World Christian in Progress

Regular Member

Regular Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Senior Member

Newbie

Regular Member

Regular Member

Newbie

Christian (A)narchist

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads