Is Evolution A Lie?

artybloke · Oct 5, 2011

Ahhh, I see we have another bibleworshipper who likes to parade his ignorance to the world.

If you were loyal to Jesus Christ you would not subscribe to the heresy of creationism.

Mr Dave · Oct 5, 2011

ianb321red said:
So why don't we continue this discussion with the TE's among us showing the literalists how their view on creation ties in with what Jesus said. I'm not interesting in what scientists say. I'm interested in what Jesus said.

What Jesus said in one of his famous RI Christmas lectures?

Jesus didn't speak of science, his focus was different. In no way does what Jesus say legitimise evolution nor does it do the opposite.

welshman · Oct 5, 2011

I have no problem with you obviously having a difference of view with regards to evolution vs creation. You're more than entitled to your view

What I do find odd is that you question someones personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, while you yourself have "Christian seeker" on your profile. Isn't that a bit hypocritical, when by your own admission (at least so it seems...please correct me if I am wrong; I am only going with what is shown on your profile) you are still "seeking" and thus, it suggests have not "found" Christ?

Whatever, with that besides...how on earth can someone be disloyal to Christ by believing in creation? I may not agree with Celtic on the debate...but I would hardly call her "disloyal". You seem more than ready to throw out insults at others on here, rather than providing scriptural or other evidence to support your claims.

NB...Just read your profile and seen that you have been a "Christian" for 28 years. Out of interest, do you consider yourself "born-again" or just believe in God? Not a sarcastic remark waiting for the chance to make a funny comeback...just genuinely curious.

artybloke said:
Ahhh, I see we have another bibleworshipper who likes to parade his ignorance to the world.

If you were loyal to Jesus Christ you would not subscribe to the heresy of creationism.

ianb321red · Oct 5, 2011

Mr Dave said:
What, that we're savage wolves distorting the truth?
That's a nice thing to say about us.

Right! And ask yourself who actually said those words? And who or what was he referring to??

I wasn't meant to be particularly nice..... it was meant to be truth.

ianb321red · Oct 5, 2011

artybloke said:
Ahhh, I see we have another bibleworshipper who likes to parade his ignorance to the world.

If you were loyal to Jesus Christ you would not subscribe to the heresy of creationism.

that's a throw away comment and an insult which I doubt you could actually back up with anything of real value to this discussion?

ianb321red · Oct 5, 2011

Mr Dave said:
What Jesus said in one of his famous RI Christmas lectures?

Jesus didn't speak of science, his focus was different. In no way does what Jesus say legitimise evolution nor does it do the opposite.

The opposite being what?

No, Jesus didn't speak of science - he simply made reference to what is already written in scripture. Jesus says in Matt 19:4 ""Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female?"

What else can this mean? I'm not dismissing the value of science, but Christians should use science to support what the bible says, not fit the bible in to what science says...

Cue vitriolic comments...

Celtic D · Oct 5, 2011

ianb321red said:
...and for the record, I'm not interested in loyalty to faith/ religion(s) or The Church or Christianity or other Christians. My only loyalty is to Jesus Christ.

Therefore, it doesn't bother me that I know very little about evolution.
It doesn't particularly bother me that you think I know every little about "fellow christians" because anyone can label themselves as a "Christian" - doesn't mean that they are one..

Try reading Acts 20:29-30 as I think this is very applicable to TE's...

Try reading the forum rules! It is against the rules for you to state that those who are professing Christians as per the forum definition and who use one of the orthodox Christian icons, to state that our beliefs are unorthodox or heretical. TE is neither of these!

For the avoidance of any doubt Ian, I am a Christian and Christ is my Lord and Saviour.

Celtic D · Oct 5, 2011

ianb321red said:
Ok, I think I find the general tone of the last few comments personally quite scathing - which is disappointing (I don't include Welshman here because I normally agree with 99% of his posts)...

To be absolutely ridiculed by someone who calls themselves a Christian on the topic of evolution is definitely something I've not experienced before..

As I've said earlier, I normally steer well clear of evolution "debates" because the same outcome ALWAYS happens: display the slightest bit of inferior knowledge of the topic and you get absolutely panned.

Tower Crane Driver - fair points that I suspect you've made, but I'm not about to spend hours researching whether you are right or not simply to perpetuate this thread...

So therefore it leaves me just having to rely on The Bible for the facts on creation - oh well

Kettle calling the pot black, try taking the plank out of your own eye! I have never trashed your faith but you have called me/TEs heretics and unorthodox!

Tower Crane Driver · Oct 5, 2011

welshman said:
I don't believe the evidence does.

Click to expand...

People with your position tend to dismiss the conclusion and the evidence. If this isn't the case with yourself please show me how the evidence points to your interpretation?

Such as the classic debating topic - fossils.

Let's start with no pre-set interpretation or bias. If you were to examine the fossil record what conclusion would you draw?

Plus, I don't believe the original Hebrew allows for the earth to be millions of years old according to the Genesis account.

Click to expand...

That's precisely the point I've been making. Evolution is an irrelevant argument to be discussion regarding creation. The arguments should be against plate tectonics and continental drift, volcanism and ice cores etc.

I would contend that natural selection only selects information from that which already exists. A dog will never produce a pig because the information is not there.

Click to expand...

New information doesn't just appear and we never go from a dog to a pig.

Evolution works more like a baby growing into an adult. Never is there a jump and to witness the change first hand is impossible. Only when viewed from a distance can we see the baby grow into a child and then an adult.

If you were to look at a photo album, one generation at a time, for hundreds of thousands of generations, you wouldn't see a jump from human to pre-human, but gradual, tiny changes that build on each other.

theFijian · Oct 6, 2011

ianb321red said:
Go ahead - demonstrate me to be false..If you believe in the authority of The Bible then you'll find that nothing I've said in those last paragraphs isn't true?

"Jesus didn't need to believe in evolution"

Neither did he need to 'believe' in germ theory, the iPhone or the Tokyo subway system....so what?

"for it is written" that In the beginning God created male and female

I believe this

So in the beginning means just that. How can it mean anything else?

I believe God created everything... in the beginning

TE is just a modern/ 'pop' Christian attack on the authority of the bible for people who are afraid to not fit in with current modern thinking..

On the contrary, it is because I believe in the authority of scripture that I am not a Creationist

The Genesis account of creation is not written with any symbolic leaning.

Prove it.

It is simply the true account of creation.

I agree

If you reject it, you are promoting an unorthodox view and profaning the eternal Word of God.

I don't reject it

See, demonstrably false.

theFijian · Oct 6, 2011

ianb321red said:
So why don't we continue this discussion with the TE's among us showing the literalists how their view on creation ties in with what Jesus said. I'm not interesting in what scientists say. I'm interested in what Jesus said.

Why only what Jesus said? Don't you believe the rest of the Bible is God's word?

ianb321red said:
Try reading Acts 20:29-30 as I think this is very applicable to TE's...

As they say, a proof text without context is a pretext so I'd like to point you towards 1 Tim 1:4 which is very applicable to Creationists

theFijian · Oct 6, 2011

welshman said:
Well what does it do then? As far as I am aware, and according to Berlinski; scientists can't even agree on what a "species" is.

A dog producing a pig would disprove evolution :wave:

Evolution occurs in a micro form. You can breed different "species" of dog. They are all the same "kind" of animal though. However, you will never get a new "kind" of animal from another after reproduction (no matter how much time is involved) because the genetic information is not there.

Funny how Creationists can't seem to define what a 'kind' or a 'species' is though nor can they barrier is that stops macro evolution from happening

uberd00b · Oct 6, 2011

ianb321red said:
I'm not dismissing the value of science, but Christians should use science to support what the bible says, not fit the bible in to what science says...

Science is the study of the world around us. To a Christian science must be the study of God's creation.

On the one hand we have a book written by (some would say inspired) man, on the other we have God's direct creation itself. One message is filtered through fallible man and the other is straight from the fingers of God himself.

Surely to deny the discoveries of science is to call God a liar?

God seems to tell us directly that the earth is old, evolution happens and that Adam and Eve didn't actually exist. Why idolise a book over this message?

Surely what is more important is what is true, not what the Bible says?

non-religious · Oct 6, 2011

[uberd00b]
Surely what is more important is what is true, not what the Bible says?

That depends entirely upon what one considers truth, therein lies the problem. Many Christians believe the Word of God to be infallible, utterly without reproach or any form of error. So for them what the Bible states is categorically true. Does evolution represent an absolute truth?

ianb321red · Oct 6, 2011

Celtic D said:
Try reading the forum rules! It is against the rules for you to state that those who are professing Christians as per the forum definition and who use one of the orthodox Christian icons, to state that our beliefs are unorthodox or heretical. TE is neither of these!

For the avoidance of any doubt Ian, I am a Christian and Christ is my Lord and Saviour.

Ok - my apologies. I take back this comment.

ianb321red · Oct 6, 2011

Celtic D said:
Kettle calling the pot black, try taking the plank out of your own eye! I have never trashed your faith but you have called me/TEs heretics and unorthodox!

Ok - I take this back also.

But I do still feel think the critique of some of my previous comments was not handled in a particularly courteous manner...

Nevertheless, I take this back and apologise if I caused any offence to you or anyone else..

ianb321red · Oct 6, 2011

Ok, this will be my last post on this particular topic for now...

There's been some interesting comments, and I'm open minded enough to conceed that I might need to understand more about some of the issues which have been discussed here...

Fortunately I'm in a position where I have a close friend of the family (and congregation member) who is a leading Christian expert on these issues. I'm not going to name drop, but this person is an Emeritus Professor for a top UK university in the History of Science and Philosophy dept, and has a strong research interest in the history of science and religion. This person is also a member of the Faraday Institute.

I'm not meeting this person to garner ammunition for debating on forums - simply to further my own personal knowledge.

Therefore, going forward I can hopefully speak with a bit more confidence and clarity on the Christian perspective for these issues....

theFijian · Oct 6, 2011

ianb321red said:
Fortunately I'm in a position where I have a close friend of the family (and congregation member) who is a leading Christian expert on these issues. I'm not going to name drop, but this person is an Emeritus Professor for a top UK university in the History of Science and Philosophy dept, and has a strong research interest in the history of science and religion. This person is also a member of the Faraday Institute.

So you aren't going to namedrop but you'll give us just enough information to work out who it is your pally with

I'm not meeting this person to garner ammunition for debating on forums - simply to further my own personal knowledge.

Therefore, going forward I can hopefully speak with a bit more confidence and clarity on the Christian perspective for these issues....

I can't think of many people better informed than ooh say... RJ Berry to give you clarity on the issues

welshman · Oct 6, 2011

I didn't say creationists could definitely define exactly what a "kind" is.
I'll add one of these been as you keep waving at me... :wave:

theFijian said:
A dog producing a pig would disprove evolution

Funny how Creationists can't seem to define what a 'kind' or a 'species' is though nor can they barrier is that stops macro evolution from happening

ianb321red · Oct 6, 2011

theFijian said:
So you aren't going to namedrop but you'll give us just enough information to work out who it is your pally with

I can't think of many people better informed than ooh say... RJ Berry to give you clarity on the issues

Good try, but incorrect I'm afraid.... :amen:

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