Show me scripture that supports ABORTION.

Blackwater Babe

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Blackwater Babe,
That is very dangerous logic, that because of God’s judgement, people can make the same judgements, so because God kills people can.?
Why would you choose to follow these scriptures and not the ones which say choose life, and that God knows people even before the womb and forms them in the womb?
So lets take some of the first ones, if men fight and thus cause a premature birth, which is eventually punished, that gives a woman the right to kill her unborn baby just if she doesnt fancy having it?
Nooo... they're not just scriptures where God is killing babies and children and causing miscarriages, they're scriptures where he's telling people to do it.

And you misremember the first one... the first one supports abortion because it makes it clear that the punishment for inducing a miscarriage in a woman is LESS than that for killing a person, AND (and this is important) that punishment is only required if the father demands it, which is to say, if the father doesn't want the person who caused the miscarriage punished, then there is no punishment.
 
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Jedi

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Jedi,
I dont think we can go any further than this, Jeremiah and the Psalmist were people to whom God said He formed and knew even before the womb, so there is no credibility to an assumption therefore that there was any point in time at which these people were not persons.

Are you saying that every person has always existed? That's a pretty bold assertion without any biblical or philosphical evidence to support it. Further still, didn't we agree earlier that God's foreknowledge of something does not necessitate its existence at that particular time? God's knowledge transcends time, so Him "knowing" something does not mean it has to exist at a specific point in time. If this is so, your assertion that God's knowledge mandates something exists is not only false, but the attempted use of God's knowledge as an indication that something exists and therefore must be protected is thwarted as well.

Even with such an argument one would logically observe that the sentient person with spirit that God knows is destined for the person’s shell that God is forming. To claim the person doesn’t exist before the sentient spirit is given to the shell suggests some people might not be in their shells but someone else’s... still the same womb and DNA. Lol.

Why does the spirit need to exist prior to the formation of the body? You've presented no scriptural or logical evidence for this assertion. It could very well be that God forms a spirit just like any other part of the body (or even within the body) during development. Regardless, I think the point is moot in the debate on abortion, as we've distinguished between the body & spirit; abortion only terminates the former and murder can only occur against persons ("spirits"). At the same time, you have yet to demonstrate that the biological apparatus contains a spirit at the earliest stages of development, contrary to the biological evidences we have available to us (identical twins, cognitive development enabling higher thought developing only months after conception, etc).

My argument has always been that God knows people that exist as persons before the womb, and forms them in the womb. The consequence is that abortion destroys what He is forming. I have put it that way so we all realise that abortion is destroying what God is forming whatever you try to call it.

So what makes it wrong, then? Is abortion wrong because we are killing a person or is it wrong because we are "destroying what God is forming?" Two different things, as I explained in my previous post. For the former claim, you have yet to establish that what we're dealing with is a person and for the latter claim, you have yet to distinguish why it's bad to destroy something that God has formed in the case of a zygote or fetus, but it's perfectly permissible in nearly any other case (say, killing a cow to enjoy a hamburger, or smashing a cockroach just because it annoys you).
 
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brightmorningstar

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Blackwater Babe,
Nooo... they're not just scriptures where God is killing babies and children and causing miscarriages, they're scriptures where he's telling people to do it.
He has already told people they die in their sin, He has given the choice to people to live for Him or continue to die in sin. You are forgetting Genesis 3 and the Biblical testimony holistically.
Besides, according to the scripture it cant be miscarriages as it says no harm comes from the premature issue of the womb.
And you didnt address the question concerning why you see OT death and killing as an indication of how to behave rather than the Jeremiah, Psalm and Job passages which tell of God forming people in the womb. Has God told people to give the choice of whether the unborn is killed to the mother? Please show scripture relevant to this.

 
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brightmorningstar

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Jedi,
Are you saying that every person has always existed?
No.
Why does the spirit need to exist prior to the formation of the body?
I’ll leave you to speculate on your own assumptions.
You've presented no scriptural or logical evidence for any of the claims you have made.
So what makes it wrong, then?
What makes killing anyone wrong? I’ll leave you to answer that.
Is abortion wrong because we are killing a person or is it wrong because we are "destroying what God is forming?"
Both.
For the former claim, you have yet to establish that what we're dealing with is a person and for the latter claim,
Jeremiah and the Psalmist were both people God said He formed in the womb and knew in the womb, the scripture speaks for itself.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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Min means away from when combing a word . Beten means womb.
Away form the womb. Form birth.

Use of the Hebrew preposition min, or, from, followed by the noun beten, or, womb, combines the two to form one word, mibeten, or, from the womb. These three are used in Job 1:21; 3:11; 10:19. The preposition min is emphatic when used with verbs that express or infer separation or removal. When so used, the meaning of min becomes 'away from,' 'separated from,' or 'out from.' Significantly, the basic and primary lexical use of min is separation. Thus, when mibeten is used with the verbs 'come,' as in Job 1:21, 'come forth' (3:11) and 'carried' (10:19), this use clarifies 'from the womb' to mean separation from the womb, and thus life.

David's use of mibeten also indicates an understanding of life beginning at birth, here in Psalm 22:9,10:
"Yet You are He who did bring me forth from [out of] the womb [mibeten];
You did make me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
Upon You was I cast [out] from birth [the womb];
You have been my God [apart] from my mother's womb [mibeten]."
The first mibeten in v9 follows the verb of separation, 'bring forth.' The next in v10 does not follow a verb of separation, but is parallel in meaning with v9.

The 22nd Psalm is a very important Messianic Psalm, as it also contains the topic of the crucifixion of the Messiah. While David is desribing himself in the passage, he is also prophesying the thoughts and word of his greater Son, Jesus Christ (22:1, Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34). Verses 9 and 10 speak of the birth of Christ--- of His removal from the womb of His mother. He is not dependent upon God in the womb, only outside of the womb. Nor is there trust inside of the womb, as there is no human life with which to do the trusting.

Psalm 58:3:
"The wicked are estranged [out] from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth [literally, from the womb (mibeten)]."

This verse indicates there can be no wickedness until a person be separated from the womb. At the moment of birth, as soul life is imparted, the sin nature is activated. No one can be 'wicked' or 'speak lies' until they are born.

Isaiah uses mibeten and yatsar, which is 'to form' or 'to create.' In Gen. 2:7, yatsar was referring to God's immediate formation of Adam's biological life. Yet, after Gen.2 yatsar no longer points to His immediate creation of biological life, as all biological life since the Fall has been mediate, through procreation. Thus, when yatsar is used wtih mibeten, it describes the immediate creation of human life by God, after separation from the womb.
Isa. 44:2:
"Thus says the LORD who made you
And formed [yatsar, created] you [your human life] from [after leaving] the womb [mibeten], who will help you,
'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant;
And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen."
44:24:
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed [yatsar, created] you [human life] from [after leaving] the womb [mibeten],
'I, the LORD, am maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself,
And spreading the earth all alone."
The temporal uses of mibeten in the excerpts mark the point of physical birth, after which time human life continues: "the anerior limit of a continuous period." Min used temporally like this can be translated 'since' or 'after.' This dramatic poetic imagery is used by Isaiah to depict birth.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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This is my feeling on abortions. I dont mind it of you get be get if you were rape, mental stable, life or death, the baby having a condition will it will die but I will dont support when women use it like birth control. Where there is e enough. When People I have Found that are pro life support the death penetly yet there against abortion. I don't agree abortion should be ban because that not going to solve anything. Women are just going to go to the back alley. I dislike when people say they want small Goverment yet they want the Goverment to tell women what to do with there bodies.
Teen pregnancy is one problem that can be taking care of sex Ed. Most states don't teach what sex is or to protect yourself. Kids are teach to wait until marrige but they should also be tea h what sex is. More information the less likely it is to happen. Most midwest, southern state shave the highest teen pregnancy rate.
 
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childofdust

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Please do me the favor of showing my ignorant soul some scripture that supports abortion.

Abundant blessings.

All right. This is from the Oral Law, considered Scripture by Rabbinic Jews, and describes what Jewish tradition thought about abortions during the time of Christ:

If a woman was in hard travail, the child must be cut up while it is in the womb and brought out member by member, since the life of the mother has priority over the life of the child; but if the greater part [the head] of it has already been born, it [the baby] may not be touched, since the claim of one life cannot override the claim of another life.
--Mishnah, Oholoth, 7:6

Obviously, no Jew would dare break the commandment against the murder of innocent human life. So for them to allow an unborn child to be cut up and removed before the head comes out means Jews didn't consider an unborn baby as fully human. Here is more about what Jews considered the unborn:

if she is found pregnant, the sperm, until the fortieth day, is only a mere fluid.
--Babylonian Gemara, Yebamoth 69b

Clearly, ancient Jews didn't believe human life begins at conception or that destroying an unborn baby violates God's Law.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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All right. This is from the Oral Law, considered Scripture by Rabbinic Jews, and describes what Jewish tradition thought about abortions during the time of Christ:



Obviously, no Jew would dare break the commandment against the murder of innocent human life. So for them to allow an unborn child to be cut up and removed before the head comes out means Jews didn't consider an unborn baby as fully human. Here is more about what Jews considered the unborn:



Clearly, ancient Jews didn't believe human life begins at conception or that destroying an unborn baby violates God's Law.

Watch this space for imminent claims that Jewish texts don't matter, and that if it ain't in the Bible, its irrelevent. (while I certainly agree there is nothing specific in the Bible that says abortion is wrong, and a number of places that seem to suggest the authors were OK with it as a concept, I'm just telling you whats gunna happen in response to your excelent post)
 
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Blackwater Babe

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The Bible speaks of if a person hits a pregnant woman in the belly and the baby does not die, they are to be fined, but if the hit causes the baby to die - it is to be life for life. Speaks pretty plain to me.
*rolls eyes* No it doesn't actually. Maybe you should read what it actually says before you base arguments on it?

The passage in question says they only get a fine if the baby dies, and then ONLY if its father to be says so. Its only if the mother dies that its to be life for a life.

If the Bible did actually say what you say it says, then yes, that would be an excelent example of the Bible speaking against abortion. But since it doesn't say what you said it says...

“When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth...“--Exodus 21:22-24
 
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Blackwater Babe

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Thanks for the verse - I was looking it up - but you are reading it wrong as you think I am - it says if any harm (does not say to mother or baby)
Read it again:

When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined

While it doesn't specify harm to the mother or baby, it does mention miscarriage. I.e. If there's a miscarriage, but the mother is alright, there is just a fine. Now, if you can explain to me how there can be a miscarriage without there being harm to the baby, I'll concede your point. Otherwise...
 
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