Pastor Rob Bell Leaving Mars Hill Church

Touma · Oct 1, 2011

I sincerely wish him the best, which would include time for him to reflect on all aspects of the character of God, not just the buddy buddy lovey-dovey Jesus that is popuplar.

LogosRhema · Oct 1, 2011

I bless and honor Rob Bell in his callings and convictions. Who am I to say any more than that?

woodpecker · Oct 1, 2011

LogosRhema, there is much to say, that is why we have 7 pages of discussion.

Christians are suppose to be wise, and understand what we believe. We are to point out false teachings, and sinful behavior among the family of believers, not un-believers for they do not know any better.

I just do not understand this blasé attitude from Christians saying "all is ok in the church, who am I to judge? Well this in its self is a false teaching, for we are told in scripture to judge, and reprimand each other in love.

Read Rev. 20-21, there is no 2nd chance, you will either be in the new heaven and earth, or with Satan and his demons in the Lake of Fire.

anyone who adds to this letter of prophecy is cursed (Rev.22) so be very careful as to how we treat Gods word.

This is not just about is hell eternal, but Rob Bell questions if there is a hell at all.

Rob Bell has left his church to make a movie about his spiritual journey. :o\

Gnarwhal · Oct 1, 2011

LogosRhema said:
I bless and honor Rob Bell in his callings and convictions. Who am I to say any more than that?

Amen.

I think of Acts 5:33-39, where Gamaliel exhorted the counsel to release the apostles because if what they were doing wasn't of God then it'd fall by the wayside. But if it is of God, then the counsel would essentially be opposing God Himself.

Freedom63 · Oct 2, 2011

Touma said:
I sincerely wish him the best, which would include time for him to reflect on all aspects of the character of God, not just the buddy buddy lovey-dovey Jesus that is popuplar.

Oh sure...because his convictions simply MUST be based on a lack of reflection and some feel good "buddy buddy lovey-dovey" fantasy. I mean it is impossible for you to give him enough benefit of the doubt as to believe he might have arrived at his beliefs based on bible studies and seeking the Spirit's leadership in his life. :doh:

These insults really are over the top.

Lord Herdsetk · Oct 2, 2011

woodpecker said:
LogosRhema, there is much to say, that is why we have 7 pages of discussion.

Christians are suppose to be wise, and understand what we believe. We are to point out false teachings, and sinful behavior among the family of believers, not un-believers for they do not know any better.

I just do not understand this blasé attitude from Christians saying "all is ok in the church, who am I to judge? Well this in its self is a false teaching, for we are told in scripture to judge, and reprimand each other in love.

Read Rev. 20-21, there is no 2nd chance, you will either be in the new heaven and earth, or with Satan and his demons in the Lake of Fire.

anyone who adds to this letter of prophecy is cursed (Rev.22) so be very careful as to how we treat Gods word.

This is not just about is hell eternal, but Rob Bell questions if there is a hell at all.

Rob Bell has left his church to make a movie about his spiritual journey. :o\

I don't mind being reprimanded when I do wrong. I need to be corrected and supported if I screw up. However, when someone finishes telling me how I need to repent with a "or you're going to Hell", I lose any reason to try to do better. At that point, I would like nothing more than to see that person's faith crumble; its vile and venomous. They are doing more harm than good.

It seems like many Christians like to vomit that token phrase whenever they're frustrated with someone. Why is Hell used so much as a threat rather than a place of punishment for those who've wronged others?

woodpecker · Oct 2, 2011

Lord H.,
I would suggest that heaven and hell are equal realities that have equal bearing on our lives as Christians and un-believers, and that both issues can be used in service to bring people to Christ.

To motivate by fear of hell can be just as much an appeal as is enticement to heaven for un-believers.

I was watching the history channel back in 1998, 'the history of hell', it scared me, it made me curious, if its true, I need to find out how not to go there. My children's pianos teachers were Christians, and I started sharing with them. Fear led me to Christ, His love led me to repentance.

Lord Herdsetk · Oct 2, 2011

woodpecker said:
Lord H.,
I would suggest that heaven and hell are equal realities that have equal bearing on our lives as Christians and un-believers, and that both issues can be used in service to bring people to Christ.

To motivate by fear of hell can be just as much an appeal as is enticement to heaven for un-believers.

I was watching the history channel back in 1998, 'the history of hell', it scared me, it made me curious, if its true, I need to find out how not to go there. My children's pianos teachers were Christians, and I started sharing with them. Fear led me to Christ, His love led me to repentance.

My story is quite the opposite.

I was raised a Christian all my life. I accepted Christ at an early age, and tried to live as a good Christian should.

In my early teens, I started finding out more about hell. Hell had always preached in my church, but when I saw how many of my brothers and sisters in Christ thought most people were going to Hell (except from themselves, obviously right?), my heart sank. It didn't help that my church family all but disowned me when my life and my faith in God went to pot.

So I had to believe and accept this Christ, in spite of my life going to crap, otherwise I was destined to burn forever? Not only that, but what happened to the billions of people who lived before Christ's time? What about those who never had a chance to hear about Christ and still haven't had an opportunity to hear about Christ? Are they acceptable collateral damage? Screw that noise. Hell turned me away from God.

If its true that many people are dying and going to Hell(or going to place where they wait to go to be punished without end) everyday, we all should leave this forum and get out there and preach the word 24/7. The Titanic is sinking, get all you can to the life boats. Yet here we are, leisurely conversing about the fate of mankind. I'm not saying this as a direct attack on you. We have these churches who proclaim that a lot of people are going to Hell, yet will have potluck dinners, youth game nights, etc. Can you really afford to take time to rest and enjoy yourself with the fate of everyone in your hands?

I don't have a problem with punishment, but I think it has to serve a purpose for it to even mean anything. Unlimited punishment serves no purpose. Initially, it is used to judge people who turned from God. What purpose does continual punishment serve a billion years later? What about a trillion years later?

This is God we're talking about. I think His idea of justice would be higher than ours. We often paint Him as an ogre though, with us doing our best to appease his anger. The Christian faith is very complex and very weird. Some parts make little sense if we take them literally. Some parts are just hard to comprehend, Revelation being an excellent example. So why are we perfectly okay to say that someone is going to Hell because they didn't believe? Is that acceptable? Forget about talking to people in our own culture, how do you explain the idea of Christ dying on the cross to make things good again between man and God to someone in a culture that has never heard about Christ?

When you start asking the tough questions and you don't have good answers, faith begins to die away. My faith in God and Christ died because I was preached the literal hellfire version of Hell all my life. I couldn't love God or Christ and his teachings as I was too afraid of what would happen to everyone I had ever known. I didn't know if I had asked for enough forgiveness or shown enough belief to be worthy. I was constantly told I was unworthy, yet Christ died for me anyway. So if my beliefs aren't strong enough, I could die and go to Hell...oh yeah, and I'm a miserable sinner who will never be good enough for God.

This thoroughly destroyed my self worth and my relationship with God. I'm always judging myself harshly because of what I was taught growing up. I'm a nervous wreck around others for fear of screwing up and failing in God's eyes. Its like that with any aspect of my life really...and I came from a loving family. When you grow up with these beliefs, and you start to look into them, even a loving family can't help cushion the devastating effects these teachings can have on a person.

My point is, yeah preaching Hell can bring people to Christ. If the rest of your existence is threatened, you want to do everything you can to preserve it. However, its a temporary fix for a permanent problem. If anyone is serious about their faith in Christ, they will look at Hell and analyze it. If the Gospel is all about Christ saving our butts from an angry God, why do we even want to be with Him in the first place? And when we do to get to Heaven, what do we do with the rest of our lives? There will most certainly be billions of people in Heaven who have lost loved ones to Hell. Are we going to pretend like this place is paradise when there's another place in existence where our loved ones are being burned alive forever and ever?

I'm not shouting or venting as I'm typing this. These are real questions I've been contemplating over the last 8 years or so. If you don't have a good answer for these questions right now, look into your own faith some more. Why have you held on to your current beliefs about Heaven and Hell? If you do have good answers, please give them to me. I need a catharsis, as do many others.

Gnarwhal · Oct 2, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
My story is quite the opposite.

I was raised a Christian all my life. I accepted Christ at an early age, and tried to live as a good Christian should.

In my early teens, I started finding out more about hell. Hell had always preached in my church, but when I saw how many of my brothers and sisters in Christ thought most people were going to Hell (except from themselves, obviously right?), my heart sank. It didn't help that my church family all but disowned me when my life and my faith in God went to pot.

So I had to believe and accept this Christ, in spite of my life going to crap, otherwise I was destined to burn forever? Not only that, but what happened to the billions of people who lived before Christ's time? What about those who never had a chance to hear about Christ and still haven't had an opportunity to hear about Christ? Are they acceptable collateral damage? Screw that noise. Hell turned me away from God.

If its true that many people are dying and going to Hell(or going to place where they wait to go to be punished without end) everyday, we all should leave this forum and get out there and preach the word 24/7. The Titanic is sinking, get all you can to the life boats. Yet here we are, leisurely conversing about the fate of mankind. I'm not saying this as a direct attack on you. We have these churches who proclaim that a lot of people are going to Hell, yet will have potluck dinners, youth game nights, etc. Can you really afford to take time to rest and enjoy yourself with the fate of everyone in your hands?

I don't have a problem with punishment, but I think it has to serve a purpose for it to even mean anything. Unlimited punishment serves no purpose. Initially, it is used to judge people who turned from God. What purpose does continual punishment serve a billion years later? What about a trillion years later?

This is God we're talking about. I think His idea of justice would be higher than ours. We often paint Him as an ogre though, with us doing our best to appease his anger. The Christian faith is very complex and very weird. Some parts make little sense if we take them literally. Some parts are just hard to comprehend, Revelation being an excellent example. So why are we perfectly okay to say that someone is going to Hell because they didn't believe? Is that acceptable? Forget about talking to people in our own culture, how do you explain the idea of Christ dying on the cross to make things good again between man and God to someone in a culture that has never heard about Christ?

When you start asking the tough questions and you don't have good answers, faith begins to die away. My faith in God and Christ died because I was preached the literal hellfire version of Hell all my life. I couldn't love God or Christ and his teachings as I was too afraid of what would happen to everyone I had ever known. I didn't know if I had asked for enough forgiveness or shown enough belief to be worthy. I was constantly told I was unworthy, yet Christ died for me anyway. So if my beliefs aren't strong enough, I could die and go to Hell...oh yeah, and I'm a miserable sinner who will never be good enough for God.

This thoroughly destroyed my self worth and my relationship with God. I'm always judging myself harshly because of what I was taught growing up. I'm a nervous wreck around others for fear of screwing up and failing in God's eyes. Its like that with any aspect of my life really...and I came from a loving family. When you grow up with these beliefs, and you start to look into them, even a loving family can't help cushion the devastating effects these teachings can have on a person.

My point is, yeah preaching Hell can bring people to Christ. If the rest of your existence is threatened, you want to do everything you can to preserve it. However, its a temporary fix for a permanent problem. If anyone is serious about their faith in Christ, they will look at Hell and analyze it. If the Gospel is all about Christ saving our butts from an angry God, why do we even want to be with Him in the first place? And when we do to get to Heaven, what do we do with the rest of our lives? There will most certainly be billions of people in Heaven who have lost loved ones to Hell. Are we going to pretend like this place is paradise when there's another place in existence where our loved ones are being burned alive forever and ever?

I'm not shouting or venting as I'm typing this. These are real questions I've been contemplating over the last 8 years or so. If you don't have a good answer for these questions right now, look into your own faith some more. Why have you held on to your current beliefs about Heaven and Hell? If you do have good answers, please give them to me. I need a catharsis, as do many others.

Your points are excellently written out. I must say that I have processed every one of your sentiments at one point or another and you're spot on with all of your ideas and conclusions.

steve_bakr · Oct 2, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
My story is quite the opposite.

I was raised a Christian all my life. I accepted Christ at an early age, and tried to live as a good Christian should.

In my early teens, I started finding out more about hell. Hell had always preached in my church, but when I saw how many of my brothers and sisters in Christ thought most people were going to Hell (except from themselves, obviously right?), my heart sank. It didn't help that my church family all but disowned me when my life and my faith in God went to pot.

So I had to believe and accept this Christ, in spite of my life going to crap, otherwise I was destined to burn forever? Not only that, but what happened to the billions of people who lived before Christ's time? What about those who never had a chance to hear about Christ and still haven't had an opportunity to hear about Christ? Are they acceptable collateral damage? Screw that noise. Hell turned me away from God.

If its true that many people are dying and going to Hell(or going to place where they wait to go to be punished without end) everyday, we all should leave this forum and get out there and preach the word 24/7. The Titanic is sinking, get all you can to the life boats. Yet here we are, leisurely conversing about the fate of mankind. I'm not saying this as a direct attack on you. We have these churches who proclaim that a lot of people are going to Hell, yet will have potluck dinners, youth game nights, etc. Can you really afford to take time to rest and enjoy yourself with the fate of everyone in your hands?

I don't have a problem with punishment, but I think it has to serve a purpose for it to even mean anything. Unlimited punishment serves no purpose. Initially, it is used to judge people who turned from God. What purpose does continual punishment serve a billion years later? What about a trillion years later?

This is God we're talking about. I think His idea of justice would be higher than ours. We often paint Him as an ogre though, with us doing our best to appease his anger. The Christian faith is very complex and very weird. Some parts make little sense if we take them literally. Some parts are just hard to comprehend, Revelation being an excellent example. So why are we perfectly okay to say that someone is going to Hell because they didn't believe? Is that acceptable? Forget about talking to people in our own culture, how do you explain the idea of Christ dying on the cross to make things good again between man and God to someone in a culture that has never heard about Christ?

When you start asking the tough questions and you don't have good answers, faith begins to die away. My faith in God and Christ died because I was preached the literal hellfire version of Hell all my life. I couldn't love God or Christ and his teachings as I was too afraid of what would happen to everyone I had ever known. I didn't know if I had asked for enough forgiveness or shown enough belief to be worthy. I was constantly told I was unworthy, yet Christ died for me anyway. So if my beliefs aren't strong enough, I could die and go to Hell...oh yeah, and I'm a miserable sinner who will never be good enough for God.

This thoroughly destroyed my self worth and my relationship with God. I'm always judging myself harshly because of what I was taught growing up. I'm a nervous wreck around others for fear of screwing up and failing in God's eyes. Its like that with any aspect of my life really...and I came from a loving family. When you grow up with these beliefs, and you start to look into them, even a loving family can't help cushion the devastating effects these teachings can have on a person.

My point is, yeah preaching Hell can bring people to Christ. If the rest of your existence is threatened, you want to do everything you can to preserve it. However, its a temporary fix for a permanent problem. If anyone is serious about their faith in Christ, they will look at Hell and analyze it. If the Gospel is all about Christ saving our butts from an angry God, why do we even want to be with Him in the first place? And when we do to get to Heaven, what do we do with the rest of our lives? There will most certainly be billions of people in Heaven who have lost loved ones to Hell. Are we going to pretend like this place is paradise when there's another place in existence where our loved ones are being burned alive forever and ever?

I'm not shouting or venting as I'm typing this. These are real questions I've been contemplating over the last 8 years or so. If you don't have a good answer for these questions right now, look into your own faith some more. Why have you held on to your current beliefs about Heaven and Hell? If you do have good answers, please give them to me. I need a catharsis, as do many others.

I go to a Catholic Church, so I will relate to you what I understand to be the Church's teachings relating to some of your questioning.

Regarding the souls that lived before Christ, these are saved. The reason is that, after he died, Christ descended into hell in order to save them.

Regarding people of other cultures who have never heard the Word, these are not held responsible for that and are judged by the contents of their hearts.

Even people who have heard the Word, but for cultural or psychological reasons could not accept it, may not be held responsible for it and are judged according to their individual situation.

It is thus possible, according to Vatican II, that people of other religions may go to heaven.

And, of course, for fallen Christians there is purgatory to purge their remaining sins which they did not repent of.

This is not the same kind of picture as that which is painted by the fundamentalist churches.

I hope this presents you with a better outlook than the one you were taught. You might want to check out a Catholic Church that embraces Vatican II.

Peace

woodpecker · Oct 2, 2011

we have all had those questions and emotions about Christianity, it is how each one of us react to the answerers or the unanswered one.

When a person is genuinely seeking Truth, it will be shown.

when a person is pondering these questions, and then answering them in their own wisdom, or the wisdom from the world, that person will see God as angry and vengeful, a God wanting to see most of the world burn.

But the person who investigates these questions of theology, with prayer for wisdom from God, has a an open heart for God, wants to know God....this person will fall in love with God, and they will die to their own understanding and submit to the Greater Wisdom of the Spirit.

This person will fear His Majesty, will hide from His Holiness, he/she will kneel at the feet this God, Jesus the Messiah, and He will cover you in Grace, and all the wisdom of the worlds philosophies will seem like foolishness to your new mind, and new heart given to you by the Holy Spirit.

The person then living in obedience to the Spirit, will Trust God to save all those who are to be saved, from the beginning of creation until the end of this earth.

There is no need to be of concern for many of the questions you ask, for GOD IS GOOD, AND A RIGHTEOUS JUDGE

1Then the Lord said to Job,
2“Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?
You are God’s critic, but do you have the answers?”

3Then Job replied to the Lord,
4“I am nothing—how could I ever find the answers?
I will cover my mouth with my hand.
5I have said too much already.
I have nothing more to say.”

6Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:
7“Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
8“Will you discredit my justice
and condemn me just to prove you are right?
9Are you as strong as God?
Can you thunder with a voice like his?
10All right, put on your glory and splendor,
your honor and majesty.
11Give vent to your anger.
Let it overflow against the proud.
12Humiliate the proud with a glance;
walk on the wicked where they stand.
13Bury them in the dust.
Imprison them in the world of the dead.
14Then even I would praise you,
for your own strength would save you (Job 40)

woodpecker · Oct 2, 2011

Lord Herdsetk · Oct 3, 2011

woodpecker said:
we have all had those questions and emotions about Christianity, it is how each one of us react to the answerers or the unanswered one.

When a person is genuinely seeking Truth, it will be shown.

when a person is pondering these questions, and then answering them in their own wisdom, or the wisdom from the world, that person will see God as angry and vengeful, a God wanting to see most of the world burn.

But the person who investigates these questions of theology, with prayer for wisdom from God, has a an open heart for God, wants to know God....this person will fall in love with God, and they will die to their own understanding and submit to the Greater Wisdom of the Spirit.

This person will fear His Majesty, will hide from His Holiness, he/she will kneel at the feet this God, Jesus the Messiah, and He will cover you in Grace, and all the wisdom of the worlds philosophies will seem like foolishness to your new mind, and new heart given to you by the Holy Spirit.

The person then living in obedience to the Spirit, will Trust God to save all those who are to be saved, from the beginning of creation until the end of this earth.

There is no need to be of concern for many of the questions you ask, for GOD IS GOOD, AND A RIGHTEOUS JUDGE

1Then the Lord said to Job,
2Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?
You are Gods critic, but do you have the answers?

3Then Job replied to the Lord,
4I am nothinghow could I ever find the answers?
I will cover my mouth with my hand.
5I have said too much already.
I have nothing more to say.

6Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:
7Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
8Will you discredit my justice
and condemn me just to prove you are right?
9Are you as strong as God?
Can you thunder with a voice like his?
10All right, put on your glory and splendor,
your honor and majesty.
11Give vent to your anger.
Let it overflow against the proud.
12Humiliate the proud with a glance;
walk on the wicked where they stand.
13Bury them in the dust.
Imprison them in the world of the dead.
14Then even I would praise you,
for your own strength would save you (Job 40)

But this is the same God with whom Abraham argued with. Abraham pleaded with God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 18

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.
20 Then the LORD said, The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thingto kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 The LORD said, If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?

I bring this up to say that I think we should question God's justice and what that really means. I don't mean question it in contempt or to insult our maker, but honestly ask God why He does the things He does.

Abraham was probably angry and frustrated with God for announcing that He would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, after all his nephew was living in Sodom. Abraham calls God out by saying "Far be it from you to kill the righteous with the wicked. Will not the Judge of the earth do right?" God, why are you wiping out these towns, there might be other good people in them!?

I'm like Abraham in this situation, asking if God will really torture those forever who failed to come to know Christ or failed to live a good life due to having a rough upbringing. Will not the Judge of the earth do right? Maybe its unnecessary to ask questions about God's judgement as it most likely won't change His mind, but I don't think its pointless.

We grow from asking questions. Questions are an amazing way of reaching out to others and reaching out to God. A question doesn't have to have answers in order for it to be a good question. Sometimes, merely thinking about something and asking about it is more important than being given an answer.

...And I actually think God enjoys being asked the tough questions. It shows that we are interested in learning more about Him.

awakeningaletheia · Oct 3, 2011

Comment removed by author

Lord Herdsetk · Oct 3, 2011

awakeningaletheia said:
Thank you for reminding me why I need to bury this doctrine with extreme prejudice. It has to be one of the most evil lies to have plagued humanity. I have many thing I wish to say to you. However I'm curious what is your view of God's judgments now?

What do you mean by my view of God's judgements? Do you mean to ask what do I think God's judgements are?

If so, my honest view of God's judgements is "I don't know." I'm still seeing what other Christians have to say. My views on Christianity are very ignorant, I won't deny that. I feel like I'm just beginning to eat the meat of the word, so to speak.

I would probably lean more towards Hell actually being Purgatory, or even Purgatory for all. Our God is a consuming fire. I'm not ruling out Annihilationism or Ultimate Reconciliation though. I would love to see Ultimate Reconciliation to be true, but I cannot say if it will or will not happen. I don't know, I'm not God.

I agree with woodpecker, I believe God is a righteous judge and that He is good. Because I believe that though, I don't see how God would condone, let alone actually torture people without end. This is the same God that rebuked and punished Israel for sacrificing their children in flames to other gods. God said that this thought had never even entered into His own mind, so why are they doing that?

Why are we doing that?

Freedom63 · Oct 3, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
I agree with woodpecker, I believe God is a righteous judge and that He is good. Because I believe that though, I don't see how God would condone, let alone actually torture people without end. This is the same God that rebuked and punished Israel for sacrificing their children in flames to other gods. God said that this thought had never even entered into His own mind, so why are they doing that?

Why are we doing that?

Great question.

woodpecker · Oct 3, 2011

Lord H. I agree with your replies, again the questions are not wrong, I said it is how the person asking responds to the question, and how that person perceives and understands God and Gods answere. I then gave examples to what I consider a healthy relationship to God and who He is.

I do disagree with the understanding that hell is purgatory and there will be a 2nd chance, after the 'white throne of judgment'...this is final.

Lord Herdsetk · Oct 3, 2011

woodpecker said:
Lord H. I agree with your replies, again the questions are not wrong, I said it is how the person asking responds to the question, and how that person perceives and understands God and Gods answere. I then gave examples to what I consider a healthy relationship to God and who He is.

I do disagree with the understanding that hell is purgatory and there will be a 2nd chance, after the 'white throne of judgment'...this is final.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? How should a person respond to God's answer and what would God's answer be in this case regarding Hell?

A thought popped into my mind while reading Revelation 20 last night. It says Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented for ever and ever (as opposed to just one forever.) After that, it says the dead will be judged. Anyone whose name is not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. What's interesting is that it does not say they will be tormented for ever. Even more interesting is the fact that it says the lake of fire is the second death.

Let's break this down. So God revives all the dead, even the ones He that aren't saved. So after judging all people, He immediately throws those whose names are not in the book of life into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Maybe I'm just having a Nicodemus moment, but how can you die again? Will a man die, be resurrected, only to die again? And why does the writer of Revelation point out that the second death has no power over those revived in the first resurrection?

Some Christians say that Adam and Eve's curse was not just a literal physical death, but also a spiritual death between mankind and God. That was the first death. If we take Revelation as literal, we're approaching this book from Nicodemus' stand point; "How can you cram a grown man into his mother's womb to be born again?" But what if Revelation is talking about a second spiritual death? What if the second death is a second separation from God, as Adam was spiritually separated from God? What if its both, a second physical and spiritual death? Or what if that second spiritual death is a purgatory one must endure before being able to meet God face to face?

These are some of the many possible interpretations I've thought about when looking at Revelation. You say its final. I agree that it could be, but why would you say that it is indeed final? And more importantly, if it is final, what do you think that means for the people in the lake of fire?

steve_bakr · Oct 3, 2011

woodpecker said:
Lord H. I agree with your replies, again the questions are not wrong, I said it is how the person asking responds to the question, and how that person perceives and understands God and Gods answere. I then gave examples to what I consider a healthy relationship to God and who He is.

I do disagree with the understanding that hell is purgatory and there will be a 2nd chance, after the 'white throne of judgment'...this is final.

We really don't know what hell is, really. The Bible often uses metaphors--ie, Gehhena, a lake of fire--which for some reason people interpret literally. When the Bible uses a metaphor like "the white throne of judgment" we think of a real throne when "throne" is simply a metaphor for God's authority. Origen thought that grace could still take place in the afterlife, although perhaps it is simpler not to tell that to everyone for fear that they won't repent in this life.

Peace

Lord Herdsetk · Oct 3, 2011

I think we should get this topic back on topic before it turns into another hell discussion.

Its frustrating to see so many Christians acting acting like vipers because someone challenges their understanding of the Christian faith. No, I don't agree with all that Rob Bell has to say, but I think his heart is in the right place. His perspective was a breath of fresh air. With so many preachers talking about how undeserving we are of God's grace and how angry God is at us, I needed someone to show me how graceful and merciful and loving God is too minus the guilt trip.

I fear that Christianity is teetering the fine line between being a religion and being a cult. When fear and guilt are your main tools for keeping people in church, you need to evaluate where you went wrong in your theology. Remember, we love God because He first loved us, not the other way around. So then why do we cling so desperately to a version of God that is angry with us and is willing to see us burn forever lest we do A B and C?

As I mentioned before, Hell turned me away from God...but the kingdom of Heaven pulled me back. It has taken 7 years and tons of people like Rob Bell who don't shy away from asking the hard questions for me to come back to God. Bell doesn't have all the answers, but then again who does? I find it refreshing that there are some people out there simply willing to talk about Hell and Heaven and what it means to be a Christian without spurting catchy slogans.

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