Traditions teach a cruel God

Reine · Oct 1, 2011

Enkil said:
Jesus was specifically warning someone that it is better to cut off a limb that causes you to sin than to have the entire body cast into hell for eternal torments. Exactly what else would it be referring to?

For the same reason that the Gospel says "For men loved darkness more than the light".

Because there is no evidence that the lake of fire does not exist, is not eternal, and sinners do not burn eternally therein. Because scripture teaches that not everyone will be saved and will endure "eternal punishment". Those were the words of Jesus. It did not say "temporary punishment", it did not say "annihilation", it says "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" also known as "a punishment that never ends".

I myself will not call Jesus a liar merely to satisfy a misplaced compassion.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, we all know that Jesus doesnt want us to cut off our limbs, and the indicates the conceptual nature of his illustration. As far as using one sentence in the bible that says men have preferred darkness rather than light to demonstrate that there are people who intentionally do not want their names written in the book of life .this is an epic fail, IMO.But you are right about Jesus not being a liar. I think the four terms for Hell and their definitions have already been listed. It seem like you are putting limitations on what God can do.[/FONT]

Reine · Oct 1, 2011

Enkil said:
I myself will not call Jesus a liar merely to satisfy a misplaced compassion.

... and yes, if you have problems with misplaced compassion, this is a very good idea

Enkil · Oct 1, 2011

Reine said:
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, we all know that Jesus doesnt want us to cut off our limbs, and the indicates the conceptual nature of his illustration.

Uh, duh? And what is your point? He uses such an extreme illustration to warn us about the extreme nature of where they will be going otherwise, "where their worm dieth not, and the fires will never be quenched". Or, as in Matthew 25, where they will go to where the punishment will be "everlasting". The scripture is so overwhelmingly clear that it's only natural that you can barely even bring yourself to quote it.

As far as using one sentence in the bible that says men have preferred darkness rather than light to demonstrate that there are people who intentionally do not want their names written in the book of life .this is an epic fail, IMO.

Epic fail? Epic fail is the idea that you are actually trying to disprove the existence of hell by giving me such a lame argument that no one would willingly not want their names in the Book of Life, even though the only way to get into the book of life is through Faith in Jesus Christ, and the Bible, as I have shown repeatedly, confirms the "everlasting" nature of their punishment! (If there is "everlasting punishment", there is someone who, even by your pitiful logic, doesn't want their name "in the book of Life"!) Why don't you ask Judas why he betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 pieces of gold?

John 3
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 10:26-30
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Reine · Oct 1, 2011

[Uh, duh? And what is your point? He uses such an extreme illustration to warn us about the extreme nature of where they will be going otherwise, "where their worm dieth not, and the fires will never be quenched". Or, as in Matthew 25, where they will go to where the punishment will be "everlasting". The scripture is so overwhelmingly clear that it's only natural that you can barely even bring yourself to quote it.

Epic fail? Epic fail is the idea that you are actually trying to disprove the existence of hell by giving me such a lame argument that no one would willingly not want their names in the Book of Life, even though the only way to get into the book of life is through Faith in Jesus Christ, and the Bible, as I have shown repeatedly, confirms the "everlasting" nature of their punishment! (If there is "everlasting punishment", there is someone who, even by your pitiful logic, doesn't want their name "in the book of Life"!) Why don't you ask Judas why he betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 pieces of gold?

John 3
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 10:26-30
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/quote]
No Enkil, you disagree with my interpretation of the scriptures reagarding the use of the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus.

Here are the definitions of those words that are replaced in the bible with the word Hell is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. It is, rightly, unseen, or the place (state) of departed souls. It is the Grave. Tartarus is mentioned only once and that is the deepest pit where the fallen Angels are held against the Judgment. Gehenna is the place most spoken of in the New Testament and the only one of the four words that Christ used. It refers to a local dump where they burned dead animal bodies and such.

The reason I said Epic Fail is because you made these same types of assumptions in your hypothesis of motivations of individuals you do not know for not wanting their names written in the book of life. There is no evidence suggesting that what you speculated here is true. Now on top of that, you are now saying that these people who neither one of us know, are using ‘my pitiful logic’ as an excuse to follow the assumptions that you hypothesized in the first place, saying that ‘my pitiful logic’ is making them not want their name in the book of life.

You’re assumptions regarding my quoting capabilities are erroneous and based on conjecture. You can do that if you want to, but you are incorrect in your assumptions and that is creating a fissure in our communication capabilities.

My question stands, what evidence do you have that demonstrates people do not want their names written in the book of life?

Elsewhere in the bible, Sheol is described as a resting place and a place where God’s presence is. What do you suppose this is indicative of?

Incariol · Oct 1, 2011

Reine said:
My question stands, what evidence do you have that demonstrates people do not want their names written in the book of life

Are you asking this question seriously?

Enkil · Oct 1, 2011

Reine said:
No Enkil, you disagree with my interpretation of the scriptures reagarding the use of the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus.

Here are the definitions of those words that are replaced in the bible with the word Hell is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. It is, rightly, unseen, or the place (state) of departed souls. It is the Grave. Tartarus is mentioned only once and that is the deepest pit where the fallen Angels are held against the Judgment. Gehenna is the place most spoken of in the New Testament and the only one of the four words that Christ used. It refers to a local dump where they burned dead animal bodies and such.

In that local dump, do their "worms" never die in a fire that is never quenched? Are the animals given an "everlasting punishment"? Will they later be dumped into the lake of fire with Satan, the Beast and his false prophet where they will be tormented "for ever and ever"? If so, that's some trash-heap.

The reason I said Epic Fail is because you made these same types of assumptions in your hypothesis of motivations of individuals you do not know for not wanting their names written in the book of life. There is no evidence suggesting that what you speculated here is true.

Okay, so you're going to ignore the scripture that states that people will reject the Messiah and the reasons Jesus Himself gave. Come to think of it, there is a logical point here you are missing while at the same time acknowledging. Basically, your argument is that no one in their right mind would want to be damned forever to hell and, thus, no one could possibly reject this when they come to the knowledge of it after death. Yet, the scripture is clear that not only do people reject being written in the book of life, they actively work against the Lamb who has written it. This only makes sense if people only have a chance while ALIVE to make that choice, and thereafter face the Judgment after death, as the scripture in Hebrews says.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Elsewhere in the bible, Sheol is described as a resting place and a place where God’s presence is. What do you suppose this is indicative of?

It indicates the location of where the spirits resided prior to the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Abraham and the other righteous dead (justified by faith) in paradise, and the rest in hell awaiting judgment, evidently separated by a gulf as discussed here by Jesus. Note also that the rich man is not with Abraham, nor does he have the option for it.

Luke 16
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

nom · Oct 1, 2011

Incariol said:
Are you asking this question seriously?

why not? it's a good question. will it get a serious answer though?

Incariol · Oct 1, 2011

nom said:
why not? it's a good question. will it get a serious answer though?

How is it a good question? The answer is obvious: "Yes, all those people who aren't Christian obviously don't want to be in God's Book of Life, as they do not believe He or it even exists".

Reine · Oct 1, 2011

Well, if the fire is unquenchable in Sheol, it must be pleasant enough to rest in it, for that is what Job said he was going to do. The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus was borrowed from Babylonian times, and Jesus used it figuratively to represent two classes of people. It was directed at the Pharisees who put their trust in riches while scoffing at Jesus. The parable is figurative as were many of Jesus teachings. These parables were not meant to begin a Hell doctrine that the Hebrew population did not embrace.
You said that Job considered Sheol a resting place with demons awaiting Judgment? And, it is in the Psalms as a place where God’s presence is? What is God doing in Hell all this time?
Thus far you have not answered my initial questions. What scripture says that there are people who specifically reject having their names written in the book of life? Do you think that it is possible, that no one will actually do that?

nom · Oct 1, 2011

Enkil said:
Basically, your argument is that no one in their right mind would want to be damned forever to hell and, thus, no one could possibly reject this when they come to the knowledge of it after death. Yet, the scripture is clear that not only do people reject being written in the book of life, they actively work against the Lamb who has written it.

so? there is no contradiction -- just try to answer the question, instead of just being aggressive about excuses for not doing so.

why would anyone want to go to hell, or reject jesus? the answer to that is very related to the topic, "traditions teach a cruel god". IMHO they do. god creates some people for eternal salvations, others for eternal punishment -- yet blames them. it literally says that, when it says a pot shouldn't criticize the potter... as if it made sense for the potter to blame the pot? it doesn't get sicker. that is the big brother of a lot of tyranny and bloodshed on earth. "it's okay because it happens to THEM and not to US", no further thinking required. that is the cruelty of the weak.

if god is able to create, but unable to destroy souls, he should just say so. if he is able but unwilling, god is sick, and beyond hope, since nobody can rebuke god.

nom · Oct 1, 2011

Incariol said:
How is it a good question? The answer is obvious: "Yes, all those people who aren't Christian obviously don't want to be in God's Book of Life, as they do not believe He or it even exists".

see? that makes no sense. you cannot reject something you don't believe exists. you can only reject things you know. not believing god exists, because god didn't make a peep, is not the same as rejecting god.

and the question was *why*. not "does that occur". but what would be the reasons for that.

Incariol · Oct 1, 2011

nom said:
see? that makes no sense. you cannot reject something you don't believe exists. you can only reject things you know. not believing god exists, because god didn't make a peep, is not the same as rejecting god.

It doesn't make sense because I didn't use the word "reject". Nice try.

nom said:
and the question was *why*. not "does that occur". but what would be the reasons for that.

The answer would then be: "because they don't believe it exists". Unfortunately for them, objective reality isn't dependent on their beliefs.

Tavita · Oct 1, 2011

Enkil said:
Uh, not what the Bible says.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then we must look at what the Lake of Fire really is. If Paul was given the full revelation of the mystery of God and that mystery said that death will eventually be abolished then what is this lake of fire and brimstone where whatever happens, happens 'forever and ever'?

Revelation is not meant to be taken literally. That is where all the confusion comes in. The UNVEILING (revealing, revelation) of Jesus Christ is meant to show the unveiling of Christ within a person. It is also a book of symbols, written in symbolic language.. as John was 'in the Spirit' being shown things in spiritual language. When we have visions these days of spiritual things are they meant to be taken literally? If in the spirit I see angels pouring vials of oil into someone does it mean it's literally happening in this material dimension? Revelation is a showing forth of what takes place in the Spirit and we run around declaring that this lake of fire and brimstone is a factual, material, REAL as in this dimension type of lake. The Spirit is making the point that we will be tormented UNTIL we come to the truth and walk in that truth.

Besides which, brimstone and sulphur were used as cleansing and healing elements, and still are. That should reveal something about the nature of the spiritual 'lake' too.

Take a good look at what those words 'forever and ever' really mean. There is and will be no time in the eternals.

Enkil · Oct 1, 2011

Reine said:
Well, if the fire is unquenchable in Sheol, it must be pleasant enough to rest in it, for that is what Job said he was going to do. The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus was borrowed from Babylonian times, and Jesus used it figuratively to represent two classes of people. It was directed at the Pharisees who put their trust in riches while scoffing at Jesus. The parable is figurative as were many of Jesus teachings. These parables were not meant to begin a Hell doctrine that the Hebrew population did not embrace.
You said that Job considered Sheol a resting place with demons awaiting Judgment? And, it is in the Psalms as a place where Gods presence is? What is God doing in Hell all this time?
Thus far you have not answered my initial questions. What scripture says that there are people who specifically reject having their names written in the book of life? Do you think that it is possible, that no one will actually do that?

I've answered your question several times, providing scripture throughout. You have merely ignored all that I said and the majority of scriptures which I have provided. I have given you arguments, and you merely ask me to answer your questions as if I had said nothing at all. If you won't believe it from Jesus's own lips, why would I presume that you would listen to me if I repeat myself a few more times? You may believe what you wish, but I request that you keep silent about it. Your message gives comfort to those who are on their way to hell, thinking that there is some kind of Christian justification for disbelieving in it. When they wake up in hell, they will not think kindly of you. Then again, of course, everyone is responsible for their own salvation.

Incariol · Oct 1, 2011

It is sad when people make God into some hateful being who is just sitting up there waiting for us to mess up, and then he'll hate us and blast us. It is equally sad when people emasculate God and turn him into some cosmic pushover daddy, like a teddybear in the sky.

Enkil · Oct 1, 2011

Tavita said:
Take a good look at what those words 'forever and ever' really mean. There is and will be no time in the eternals.

Well, I would presume the words "forever and ever" really mean "forever and ever". It is an "everlasting punishment" as supported by other scriptures. While Revelation certainly has much spiritual language, there is never an occasion where their torment is not depicted as something that is eternal. Your inventions have no place in scripture or even in the common reading of the word, and it is illogical to believe that "forever and ever" can mean "temporary, only until".

nom · Oct 1, 2011

Incariol said:
The answer would then be: "because they don't believe it exists". Unfortunately for them, objective reality isn't dependent on their beliefs.

in other words, traditions teach a cruel god. and it shows in the believers. QED.

nom · Oct 1, 2011

Incariol said:
It is sad when people make God into some hateful being who is just sitting up there waiting for us to mess up, and then he'll hate us and blast us. It is equally sad when people emasculate God and turn him into some cosmic pushover daddy, like a teddybear in the sky.

where did I say I believe god is that way? I don't believe the creator of the universe and the granter of that little love I feel is stupid or cruel. that doesn't mean a cruel, stupid god doesn't still get teached. which, uhm, is what the topic is about.

Enkil · Oct 1, 2011

nom said:
see? that makes no sense. you cannot reject something you don't believe exists. you can only reject things you know. not believing god exists, because god didn't make a peep, is not the same as rejecting god.

and the question was *why*. not "does that occur". but what would be the reasons for that.

You make it too easy for me

Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Romans 1:19-21
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The scripture calls those who do not believe a fool. Indeed, not only are they fools, but there are none who "seek God". The Law and His existence are written on the hearts of every man, so that all are without excuse for not seeking out God who appears to all those who ask for Him.

To say it simply, not only do unbelievers reject God, they do so to their own doom.

Enkil · Oct 1, 2011

nom said:
in other words, traditions teach a cruel god. and it shows in the believers. QED.

Ho Hum, and what manner of sin lurks beneath your skin? There are none who are good, including you.

Traditions teach a cruel God

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