Hebrews, the book that levels past and future temples.

Frogster · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
We equate the Gospel message with God, but yet we disassociate Him when it comes to the Law. Is He not the originator of both?

Gal 3:8-9, says blessed in the abrahamic gospel, cursed under law. Galatians is not just about justification, but how we live, sanctification too.

3;8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

Frogster · Sep 3, 2011

Deut 5:29 said:
Neither of which has anything to do with God's Sabbath.
You're the one that needs to go figure.

so the jewish calendar did not have sabby?

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
We equate the Gospel message with God, but yet we disassociate Him when it comes to the Law. Is He not the originator of both?

Maybe some do. You should speak for yourself on this matter. We here doesn't include me. God originated both. All the law is from God and not part from Moses.

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

Deut 5:29 said:
I have told you more than once but you are not able to uderstand at this time.

You are not subject to God's law, neither indeed can you be.

Enough said.

How interesting. Are you now changing your position? If so why? If not what is your position?

JRSut1000 · Sep 3, 2011

Paul was definitely talking about the pagan festivals in vs. 10. However, I will admit that he is making the comparison that only keeping the feastdays in the Law is just as bad as observing astrological festivals when they were unsaved Gentiles. There is a big difference between following Messiah and seeking justification only from Torah. Galatians 5:4 - "those of you who are in Torah and who are seeking justification from it, you have ceased to be from messiah and therefore you have fallen from favor, therefore from grace."

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

Deut 5:29 said:
Neither of which has anything to do with God's Sabbath.
You're the one that needs to go figure.

In context you must be putting us on. Does a verse have to say thou shalt not observe the sabbath to have bearing on the sabbath for you?

JRSut1000 · Sep 3, 2011

Whoever is just trying to keep Torah without faith in Messiah, this is just as bad as obeying pagan festivals. This is the point Paul is trying to make when we compare all of these Scriptures in context. Paul is trying to basically save them from the sect of the Pharisees who were psuedo-messianics.

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
Now now, let's all be charitable!

Certianly! Now who's idea must we agree with?

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 3, 2011

Frogster said:
so the jewish calendar did not have sabby?

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

They should be afraid

Young) Galatians 4:10 days ye observe, and months/mhnaV <3376> and times/kairouV <2540> and years!

Reve 11:2 and the court, the without of the Sanctuary, be casting out outside! and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations.
And the holy City, they shall be trampling forty two months/mhnaV <3376>

Young) Revelation 12:14 and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times/kairouV <2540> and half a time, from the face of the serpent;
[Daniel 7:25/12:7]

Young) Daniel 12:7 And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age that `After a time, times and a half,
and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
Paul was definitely talking about the pagan festivals in vs. 10. However, I will admit that he is making the comparison that only keeping the feastdays in the Law is just as bad as observing astrological festivals when they were unsaved Gentiles. There is a big difference between following Messiah and seeking justification only from Torah. Galatians 5:4 - "those of you who are in Torah and who are seeking justification from it, you have ceased to be from messiah and therefore you have fallen from favor, therefore from grace."

Please, how do you get pagan anything in v 10? The context is very Jewish (Israelitish) in chapter 4. To say the in the middled Paul inserts paganism is unreasonable. The law is weak and beggarly and unable to perform - Rom 8:3. If indeed it could preform there would be no need for a justifier/rectifier in this case Jesus.

JRSut1000 · Sep 3, 2011

Last time 'from Scratch', it's there in context with verse 8. Look, last night I tried to be civil and gave you every Scripture you asked for, and you couldnt see it. I'm not wasting my evening saying 'there's no proof over and over'. I think this is a serious problem. If you ask me a question and don't understand, it's one thing - it's my failure for not explaining. But when you ask me a question and you argue with my answer, we have a problem. You only want me to tell you what you want to hear. Please stop asking me questions if you're just going to argue with my answers. Yesterday you asked me the whole thing about where is the Sabbath at creation, there's clearly dozens of Scripture verses that fit this point and you still argued about it.

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
Whoever is just trying to keep Torah without faith in Messiah, this is just as bad as obeying pagan festivals. This is the point Paul is trying to make when we compare all of these Scriptures in context. Paul is trying to basically save them from the sect of the Pharisees who were psuedo-messianics.

And whosoever claims that we can keep the law with the aid of the Holy Spirit or faith in Jesus Christ is beside themselves. The challenge remains open for any one to prove and submit any single person who has ever done so.

Yes Paul implies that the keeping of the law is now a doctrine of man and has always been slanted to the performance of the flesh. Keeping the law isn't following the leading of the Spirit - Gal 5:18.

JRSut1000 · Sep 3, 2011

Did the Law come by the Spirit or not? It all goes back to Y'shua, yes He is the only man to ever do so, but still. He showed it IS possible to listen to the Father, be led by the power of the Spirit, and obey Torah.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
Did the Law come by the Spirit or not? It all goes back to Y'shua, yes He is the only man to ever do so, but still. He showed it IS possible to listen to the Father, be led by the power of the Spirit, and obey Torah.

Just as I thought.....sabbatarians bringing up the Law and the Sabbath. EGADS :doh:

I would rather talk about Melchizedek and "the Rest" spoken of in Hebrews.

Anyone game for that?

Hebrews 4:3 For we are entering into the Rest, the ones-believing. According to as He declared, 'As I have sware in My wrath, if they shall be entering into the rest of Me'
and-those the works from down-casting of world being become.
[Psalm 95:11/Matt 11:29/Reve 14:11]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.
And not they are having Rest day and night......
[Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
Last time 'from Scratch', it's there in context with verse 8. Look, last night I tried to be civil and gave you every Scripture you asked for, and you couldnt see it. I'm not wasting my evening saying 'there's no proof over and over'. I think this is a serious problem. If you ask me a question and don't understand, it's one thing - it's my failure for not explaining. But when you ask me a question and you argue with my answer, we have a problem. You only want me to tell you what you want to hear. Please stop asking me questions if you're just going to argue with my answers. Yesterday you asked me the whole thing about where is the Sabbath at creation, there's clearly dozens of Scripture verses that fit this point and you still argued about it.

I'm sorry but we have a disagreement. Paul didn't insert paganism into the middle of his point unrealted to the rest of the text. You're proof texting. That is taking a select Scripture quote out of and away from its context. The law is not God. They were serving the law and not God.

The word alla (ἀλλ&#8049 translated howbeit means - nevertheless or is an objection. What is this objection to? It has to be the previous 7 verses. It isn't a change of subject matter from the law to paganism.

Verse 9 returns to the law. Well verse 8 never left the law. What days, months and years is Paul talking about? Something in paganism? How? Everything else is about a relationship with the law on both sides of those verses.

JRSut1000 · Sep 3, 2011

[nvm] Basically, it is just as bad to use the Law to be justified as it is to be as they were prior to salvation (Gentiles following their own seasons/days/etc).

JRSut1000 · Sep 3, 2011

There are two extremes here that Paul is comparing - being justified by Torah or just living like the typical Gentile of the day. Both are bad!

brinny · Sep 3, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
Just as I thought.....sabbatarians bringing up the Law and the Sabbath. EGADS

I would rather talk about Melchizedek and "the Rest" spoken of in Hebrews.
Anyone game for that?

Hebrews 4:3 For we are entering into the Rest, the ones-believing. According to as He declared, 'As I have sware in My wrath, if they shall be entering into the rest of Me'
and-those the works from down-casting of world being become.
[Psalm 95:11/Matt 11:29/Reve 14:11]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.
And not they are having Rest day and night......
[Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]

Interesting. That word "rest" really stands out for me.....It symbolizes "completion" "it is finished"...all has been done, and there is no more to be done. Who or what could out-shine what was done by God's own hand, through His son, in Whom He is infinitely pleased with?

from scratch · Sep 3, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
Did the Law come by the Spirit or not? It all goes back to Y'shua, yes He is the only man to ever do so, but still. He showed it IS possible to listen to the Father, be led by the power of the Spirit, and obey Torah.

NOPE! But then that intrepatation depends on your view point of the Trinity - not to mention a disregard for Scripture. My Bible tells me that it was God the Father that Moses spoke to and not Jesus or the Holy Spirt.

They Hoyl Spirit doesn't lead us back to what we're delivered from -Rom 7:6. To say so would be saying that God is rebelling against Himself as in the Trinity being uncooperative.

Romans 11:32 says that the law indluding the 10 Cs were meant to be broken. Otherwise there would be no need for mercy.

Deut 5:29 · Sep 3, 2011

Frogster said:
so the jewish calendar did not have sabby?

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Nothing there about the sabbath one way or the other.

Hebrews, the book that levels past and future temples.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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