Traditions teach a cruel God

msmorality · Sep 1, 2011

Tradition teaches, that unless you ' accept Jesus ' God will send you to hell for all eternity. Where you will endure infinite torment and pain . Yet this is contradicted by scripture as well, ' that all pain and suffering will come to a end ' .

msmorality · Sep 2, 2011

Lord Herdsetk · Sep 2, 2011

People will believe what they want.

To be honest, I'm not completely convinced that all will be saved, but I'm not completely convinced that all will not be saved. I hope that all will be allowed to come to God even after death though.

msmorality · Sep 2, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
People will believe what they want.

To be honest, I'm not completely convinced that all will be saved, but I'm not completely convinced that all will not be saved. I hope that all will be allowed to come to God even after death though.

You make a good point.

I think that is the key ( second chances after death ) .

If God is patient, kind, and full of compassion , has unlimited Grace and Mercy. Why wouldn't he offer hope, second chances ?

If you are interested in post mortem conversion, I would recommend the book ' What about those who never heard' by John Sanders.

And also consider the scripture that imply second chances.

Sieben · Sep 2, 2011

Second chances after death aren't biblical, so why play with the idea?

Lord Herdsetk · Sep 2, 2011

Sieben said:
Second chances after death aren't biblical, so why play with the idea?

Because the good news then becomes a literal living hell. If there is no hope for those who haven't heard of Christ or accepted Christ period, then why were they even made? Why would God create people that He would full well know die without knowing Him or His Son?

Throughout the Old Testament, God would always punish His people, but then promise that there was hope at the end of that punishment. Punishment was meant as a means to correct and teach the people a lesson, it wasn't just for the sake of destroying those rebelling against Him. Why would God continue to be with Israel if He didn't want them to learn? Punishment without hope of reprieve is just misery. Its a hell that this world indulges in far too much, far too often.

It crushes me to see so many of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ looking down upon those "out" as going to place to burn forever. It crushes me to know that God's purpose for us is ultimately pointless if so many people are born only to die. It crushes me that the church, as in the whole body of believers, Jesus built is so divided and even hateful towards one another for not believing certain things.

Maybe I'm just too soft hearted, or maybe I'm just an idiot or a fool, but I believe there is still hope for even those who did not accept Christ. Revelations speaks of death and the dead in it being tossed into a lake of fire, which is the second death. However, Paul speaks of people being judged according to our works. God will test our works through fire. Those whose works are still standing will be rewarded, while those whose works are burned down still be saved though their losses will be great, as someone escaping from flames.

Revelations also speaks of heaven as never having its gates shut. It may be that the gates are never shut simply because there is no more evil, but it may also be for those who have lost everything eventually coming to God, as the prodigal son did after he blew all the riches his father had given him.

I'm simply asking what Abraham did. Would you not spare this town for even ten people in this city? Would you not spare this world for they know not what they do? Though Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, God promised in Ezekiel to restore even those cities. But life cannot come unless death takes place. We cannot live without consuming that which was once living. So too will the new earth and the new heaven be. They cannot be without the old ones passing away.

I can't say with certainty as to which is the case, but perhaps that's why its such good news. There's hope. I simply don't know what God will do, but there's still hope. At times, its the only thing that carries me on pursuing God. I want to believe He really is making ALL things new again.

Sieben · Sep 2, 2011

But when Paul is speaking about those being judged through fire, he is talking about those who are in Christ. (1 Cor 3) He brings up three different things for each side. It also talks about the foundation of Christ and the different sorts of things you build on it. "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw," The good ones being obviously gold, silver and precious stones. But the bad will be burned up, which are wood, hay, straw. Anyways those passages in particular are not talking about everybody. Because it continues on to say that "Do you not know you are the temple of God, and the Spirit dwells in you?" implying the target audience of Christians.

You can't just say there is hope for those who have passed away, you go into the lake of fire which.. is everlasting. Or into life which is everlasting. But you should have the proof of which side you will go if you died right now, either life or death, by the Spirit. The Spirit is the only way anyone can live, I can't accept there is hope apart from Christ

Lord Herdsetk · Sep 2, 2011

Sieben said:
But when Paul is speaking about those being judged through fire, he is talking about those who are in Christ. (1 Cor 3) He brings up three different things for each side. It also talks about the foundation of Christ and the different sorts of things you build on it. "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw," The good ones being obviously gold, silver and precious stones. But the bad will be burned up, which are wood, hay, straw. Anyways those passages in particular are not talking about everybody. Because it continues on to say that "Do you not know you are the temple of God, and the Spirit dwells in you?" implying the target audience of Christians.

You can't just say there is hope for those who have passed away, you go into the lake of fire which.. is everlasting. Or into life which is everlasting. But you should have the proof of which side you will go if you died right now, either life or death, by the Spirit. The Spirit is the only way anyone can live, I can't accept there is hope apart from Christ

But I'm not talking about hope apart from Christ. I'm talking about that hope being available even after death.

What's really interesting is that in the Old Testament, there really isn't a separate place for the good to go and the wicked to go, they all just went to this place called Sheol. Sheol is essentially the same as the Greek place Hades. Its the world of the dead, or to put it more accurately, the abode of the dead.

You said the lake of fire is everlasting. That's true, the fire burns forever. Is that the same forever that Jonah was in the belly of the whale, which was three literal days? Let's assume that the lake of fire is forever as in forever as we know it, as in it literally does not ever go out. Will the people be in that fire forever? Will they burn forever or will they eventually perish? This lake of fire is for those who have been judged according to what they have done. If all it takes is not accepting Christ to be put into the lake of fire, what's the point of being judged according to what they have done?

msmorality · Sep 2, 2011

Sieben said:
Second chances after death aren't biblical, so why play with the idea?

It is biblical . The character and nature of God confirms that He has unending Compassion, Kindness, and Grace. When does that run out ? When we cease to live in a physical body ?

Why does scripture describe Christ descending into depth of ' hell ' to share the Gospel to those who have died ? "Indeed, this is why the gospel was proclaimed even to those who have died, so that they could be judged in their mortal flesh like all humans and live in the spiritual realm like God." 1Pt 4:6

1.The assumption that death necessarily terminates hope even for God is unfounded. Why should we assume that death is an insurmountable obstacle for the Lord when his most definitive act involved defeating the one who had the power of death and overcoming the grave (Heb. 2:14). Because of his resurrection, Jesus now holds the keys of Death and of Hades (Rev. 1:18). If someone died whose heart was not irreversibly set against Christ, it seems natural to assume that Christ would be willing and able to continue trying to win that person over.

2.As humans, we are limited to viewing the physical but God can view both the physical and the spiritual. He sees not only our physical bodies but our spiritual bodies (i.e. soul) as well. When someone dies we think, Thats the end because the physical is all we can experience. I understand that believers of all faiths hope in an existence beyond this life but were still limited to the realities of the physical world. But God is not so limited. He sees our physical as well as our spiritual composition so God does not stop seeing us after we die even though that is our human experience. I might try to get a friend to know the Lord but once he dies, I can no longer talk to him about Christ. But why should God Stop?

3.In our day how many people get a perfect or even close to perfect Gospel message? All we have are sinful, fallen people telling other sinful, fallen people about Jesus. What are the chances that the message might not be completely correct? What are the chances that something will get lost between what Jesus said and meant and a person living 2000 years later trying to convey that message from an imperfect written translation? And what percentage of the message must be correct for someone to be held accountable for the decision they make or dont make for Christ? Must the message be 90% correct? Will 70% do? How about 60%? Can someone be held accountable if the message they were given about Christ was only 40% accurate?

To believe that you must get it right in this life is to believe that we have perfect or near perfect information upon which to base that decision. But in truth, we dont have anything close to perfect information and this is borne out by the fact that theologians differ on nearly every teaching in the Bible. Across the Spectrum by Gregory Boyd and Paul Eddy lists the differing views on 18 major theological categories and this is not a complete list by any stretch of the imagination. If we have so many different views on just about every theological topic, perhaps Scripture is not as cut and dry as some would like us to think.

Tavita · Sep 2, 2011

msmorality said:
Tradition teaches, that unless you ' accept Jesus ' God will send you to hell for all eternity. Where you will endure infinite torment and pain . Yet this is contradicted by scripture as well, ' that all pain and suffering will come to a end ' .

What about a the heretical idea that God is too Merciful to inflict any such type of punishment in that manner ?

Watch here:

GodOneworldone's Channel - YouTube

Is this your channel msmorality? If it is I'll add you...

The Gregorian · Sep 2, 2011

Revelation 21:3-4 "3[bless and do not curse]With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4[bless and do not curse]And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"

seems clear enough to me.

msmorality · Sep 2, 2011

Tavita said:
Is this your channel msmorality? If it is I'll add you...

Yes, it is.. and thank you

msmorality · Sep 2, 2011

The Gregorian said:
Revelation 21:3-4 "3[bless and do not curse]With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4[bless and do not curse]And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"

seems clear enough to me.

ldsfaqs · Sep 3, 2011

Sieben said:
Second chances after death aren't biblical, so why play with the idea?

Actually, "second chances" ARE most certainly Biblical.
However to be accurate, it's not actually a 'second chance', it's the first "real" chance and opportunity to know and understand.

Christ proved there is a chance for salvation after death when he went and taught the spirits in Spirit Prison, so they might be judged the same as those in life.

In other words, it's a doctrine of God that "everyone" who has lived will come to know the Christ, for Christ came to save ALL from death, not simply Christians.

Further, this is one of many doctrines and principles in the New Testament that Mormonism believes and basically no other religion believes, thus one of 1,000's of evidences that Mormonism is the Lords Church restored as prophesied in the Bible.

underheaven · Sep 3, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
Because the good news then becomes a literal living hell. If there is no hope for those who haven't heard of Christ or accepted Christ period, then why were they even made? Why would God create people that He would full well know die without knowing Him or His Son?

Throughout the Old Testament, God would always punish His people, but then promise that there was hope at the end of that punishment. Punishment was meant as a means to correct and teach the people a lesson, it wasn't just for the sake of destroying those rebelling against Him. Why would God continue to be with Israel if He didn't want them to learn? Punishment without hope of reprieve is just misery. Its a hell that this world indulges in far too much, far too often.

It crushes me to see so many of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ looking down upon those "out" as going to place to burn forever. It crushes me to know that God's purpose for us is ultimately pointless if so many people are born only to die. It crushes me that the church, as in the whole body of believers, Jesus built is so divided and even hateful towards one another for not believing certain things.

Maybe I'm just too soft hearted, or maybe I'm just an idiot or a fool, but I believe there is still hope for even those who did not accept Christ. Revelations speaks of death and the dead in it being tossed into a lake of fire, which is the second death. However, Paul speaks of people being judged according to our works. God will test our works through fire. Those whose works are still standing will be rewarded, while those whose works are burned down still be saved though their losses will be great, as someone escaping from flames.

Revelations also speaks of heaven as never having its gates shut. It may be that the gates are never shut simply because there is no more evil, but it may also be for those who have lost everything eventually coming to God, as the prodigal son did after he blew all the riches his father had given him.

I'm simply asking what Abraham did. Would you not spare this town for even ten people in this city? Would you not spare this world for they know not what they do? Though Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, God promised in Ezekiel to restore even those cities. But life cannot come unless death takes place. We cannot live without consuming that which was once living. So too will the new earth and the new heaven be. They cannot be without the old ones passing away.

I can't say with certainty as to which is the case, but perhaps that's why its such good news. There's hope. I simply don't know what God will do, but there's still hope. At times, its the only thing that carries me on pursuing God. I want to believe He really is making ALL things new again.

The idea that we are created when we are born is the reason for so
many misunderstandings,even sins in the religions of christianity.
I hope I can say this in the unorthodox section,that we were not
created when we were born this time, but have had many opportunities
to know God/jesus,and have more and more every day.
The problem is that most religion like politics has denied the more

advanced souls,and

their wisdom, for a pragmatic, organised one.
There have been often good reasons for this ,but since the Age
of Reason,the God as Scientist,the original scientist ,should have
become central to christian study.Since it [relgion] has not been
proactive in this sphere,not always for the good reason ,it has spawned
many atheists.
When people are thrown out of a church for daring to ask any questions,
without being able to get the spiritual support they need
they go where they are welcomed,and that is among' rational' atheists
instead of' rational' christians,of whom there are very few indeed.
God's time is not able to be understood totally by questing scientific
types,but is not understood AT ALL by the basic christian who have not evolved
since Jesus / John Paul recognised that there are differerent
levels of conciousness,and I would ask ,Why ?
In my opinion many of those in HELL will have been unthinking,unloving
christians,Christian by habit ,by tradition only.
And some of those frowned on, :doh:

will be at least in purgatory,because
they were not bad souls,but rejected ones. :idea:

Tavita · Sep 3, 2011

msmorality said:
Yes, it is.. and thank you

I sent a friend's request.. I'm Cheza in Youtube! (my real name is Cheryl, and Cheza is a nickname in Australia for Cheryl).

msmorality · Sep 3, 2011

Tavita said:
I sent a friend's request.. I'm Cheza in Youtube! (my real name is Cheryl, and Cheza is a nickname in Australia for Cheryl).

I am so happy. Thank you . My name is Wendy btw.

msmorality · Sep 3, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
Because the good news then becomes a literal living hell. If there is no hope for those who haven't heard of Christ or accepted Christ period, then why were they even made? Why would God create people that He would full well know die without knowing Him or His Son?

Throughout the Old Testament, God would always punish His people, but then promise that there was hope at the end of that punishment. Punishment was meant as a means to correct and teach the people a lesson, it wasn't just for the sake of destroying those rebelling against Him. Why would God continue to be with Israel if He didn't want them to learn? Punishment without hope of reprieve is just misery. Its a hell that this world indulges in far too much, far too often.

It crushes me to see so many of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ looking down upon those "out" as going to place to burn forever. It crushes me to know that God's purpose for us is ultimately pointless if so many people are born only to die. It crushes me that the church, as in the whole body of believers, Jesus built is so divided and even hateful towards one another for not believing certain things.

Maybe I'm just too soft hearted, or maybe I'm just an idiot or a fool, but I believe there is still hope for even those who did not accept Christ. Revelations speaks of death and the dead in it being tossed into a lake of fire, which is the second death. However, Paul speaks of people being judged according to our works. God will test our works through fire. Those whose works are still standing will be rewarded, while those whose works are burned down still be saved though their losses will be great, as someone escaping from flames.

Revelations also speaks of heaven as never having its gates shut. It may be that the gates are never shut simply because there is no more evil, but it may also be for those who have lost everything eventually coming to God, as the prodigal son did after he blew all the riches his father had given him.

I'm simply asking what Abraham did. Would you not spare this town for even ten people in this city? Would you not spare this world for they know not what they do? Though Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, God promised in Ezekiel to restore even those cities. But life cannot come unless death takes place. We cannot live without consuming that which was once living. So too will the new earth and the new heaven be. They cannot be without the old ones passing away.

I can't say with certainty as to which is the case, but perhaps that's why its such good news. There's hope. I simply don't know what God will do, but there's still hope. At times, its the only thing that carries me on pursuing God. I want to believe He really is making ALL things new again.

Great reply. :clap:

underheaven · Sep 3, 2011

The Gregorian said:
Revelation 21:3-4 "3[bless and do not curse]With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4[bless and do not curse]And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"

seems clear enough to me.

What seems clear enough ?
There will of course not be those who have
thrown their lot in with satan for they are no
longer human.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2011

Originally Posted by Lord Herdsetk Because the good news then becomes a literal living hell. If there is no hope for those who haven't heard of Christ or accepted Christ period, then why were they even made?
Why would God create people that He would full well know die without knowing Him or His Son?.....<snip>

msmorality said:
Great reply.

You and others may be interested in this commentary by a favorite commentator of mine....but then again, some may not :wave:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of The World Part 3

On this earth there are more than four and a half billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!
What about the millions of people living now in Communist Russia and Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations.
Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation? Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

Traditions teach a cruel God

Wendy

Wendy

What were they thinking?

Wendy

Sieben

Guest

What were they thinking?

Sieben

Guest

What were they thinking?

Wendy

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

Troll

Wendy

Wendy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

Wendy

Wendy

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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