What is grace and why is grace and Torah so oppoed to one another

ForceofTime

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Cain was sorry and pleaded for G-d to lighten his punishment. And G-d heard him and assured him that nobody would kill him(for 7 generations). Hence the Mark of Cain-to protect Cain from human vengance.

He was sorry, that is true; but for what: killing Abel or getting punishment? Is that asking for forgiveness?
 
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yedida

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Anyone who says grace is a New Testament concept is without understanding of Who HaShem is.

I know that I heard it a number of times when I was in the mainstream.
And, sadly, I have to agree with you they didn't, and those who teach that don't know Abba at all.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I understand your thoughts.:)
Thank you, I wasn't sure that anyone did.

The grace that acknowledges God does extend to all areas, but it's not limited to the law. While the law is good in some ways it's an extension of the 10 commandments, while the law of grace is an extension of the law into the spiritual aspect of everyday living. Which is so much more than what goes on in the flesh, it extends to even the thoughts.The bible contains the old and new covenents, where the Judaists are content with the Torah the Torah doesn't include human interactions with God on a daily basis on the level of thought in coming together with God. The new covenent isn't just the new testement either. It all needs to be read together and reasoned out with God. God extends the grace to do this.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't take the Message Bible to seriously, yet, it was written by a Christian, who may convey a good point. Since we all know we could not save ouself other than by grace, why would we suddenly think we can take over by our own strength? Isn't really sanctification the real crux among Chrisitans. The how we are to live?


Galatians 3;2-4Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God's Message to you? Are you going to continue this craziness? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren't smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it?


Thanks for noting what you did.

As John 1 makes clear, "The Law came through Moses, Grace/Truth came through Jesus Christ"



From what I understand the concept of Grace to be, its not a matter of dissolving all things that occurred within the OT since the OT was meant to point to Christ. On the same token, its not something that's meant to aid others simply do a repeat of what was occurring in all parts of the OT---namely, the Levitical and Mosaic law--since many aspects were never specified to last for all time....and many were meant to be things that were to point back to Yesuha when he came to complete it/make certain aspects no longer necessary.

Grace is the focus of what the Torah was about since the Torah makes clear that no man was ever meant to believe he could keep the Torah by his own power/will. It would always take the power of HaShem to do so---and the book of Hebrews makes clear that the older system was never sufficient to do the work that Messiah wanted.

In the event that I'm not saying it best, one can go to the following threads where similar thoughts were shared by Messianics I roll with/agree:




Of course, from here comes to inevitable issue of how many don't even accept the Book of Hebrews as having ANY validity when it comes to practice.....and likewise, the issue also goes into things such as how many do not accept even what Paul says when it comes to the subject of how it is by the Grace of the Lord that men were saved. If men could save themselves via the Law, there was no logical reason as to why Messiah had to come/die on our behalf.....for we could do it ourselves.

IMHO, those who have heard His voice and believed have passed from death to life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth My word and believeth on HIm that sent me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemantion, but IS passed from death unto life." (John 5:24). It isn't something future. This is the Kingdom of God/Heaven. Faith in Christ Jesus puts us into that Kingdom, and makes us a "Kingdom of priests". ...

Paul also wrote, in Col. 1:12-13--"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in Whom we have redemption through HIs blood, even the forgiveness of sins..." (KJV)

The entire issue of saying one can keep the Torah often seems to go against what Moses seemed to say cleary in the same book mentioning that his law/Word was not far off that the people would actually fail in keeping it--as seen in Deuteronomy 31 when it came to his predicting Israel's rebellion.

As one Messianic Jewish ministry said best (in excerpt):

From Moses’ words in Deuteronomy 31, it is clear that the Torah was not given to the people of Israel to make them feel better about themselves, but instead it was given as a witness against the people as evidence that they were law-breakers.

If as a Messianic Jew you still feel like you should base your identity upon the written words of the Torah, I would suggest that you haven’t fully felt the weight of these commandments upon your shoulders, and you haven’t accepted that these laws could only ever condemn you as a law-breaker.

Even if you were somehow able to observe the majority of the commandments, and thus make your boast in the written Torah, you still have to side-step Moses’ intention for writing down the Torah. The fact still remains that Moses wrote down the Torah as evidence that you are a sinner.

Moses says that if the people of Israel were not faithful to Torah when he was alive, how much less faithful will they be to Torah after his death?

As Messianic Jews, it is entirely right and proper to identify with the people of Israel. As bnei Israel, we must acknowledge that the Torah was given to us as evidence against us and not for us, because we are a sinful people.

The Torah is like a speed camera, or like police CCTV footage – it only exists to catch you out.

As we are all caught out and condemned by the Torah, we should not declare ourselves to be Torah-keepers. Only Moshiach was able to keep Torah, and he kept Torah on our behalf, because of his grace and loving-kindness towards us.

If we can be faithful to Torah outside of Christ, then why did Moshiach take the penalty for breaking Torah upon his shoulders? Or, if we are now faithful to Torah as believers, then why does Moshiach continue to make intercession for us before the throne of God?

Moses uses a kol v’chomer, to make his point. Therefore his argument also works in a reverse application:

If we understand the Prophet (Messiah) is like Moses, then it is clear:
We are utterly corrupt when he (Messiah) is not with us (he’s dead to us). Yet when we have Messiah (he’s with us), how much less (reverse the kol v’chomer) we are corrupt, and we WON’T turn aside from the Way which He has commanded us. We may have Messiah and still be rebellious and stiff-necked, yet we won’t turn aside from the Way, and evil won’t befall us by provoking HaShem to anger as we won’t be doing that which is evil in His sight, by the work of our hands.

After all it is within this same passage we read concerning the Torah:

Deuteronomy 32:46 he said unto them: ‘Set your heart unto all the words wherewith I testify against you this day; that ye may charge your children therewith to observe to do all the words of this law.

Deuteronomy 32:47 For it is NO VAIN thing for you; because it is your life, and through this thing ye shall prolong your days upon the land, whither ye go over the Jordan to possess it.’​
The Torah is no vain thing, and it is our life (life now as well as eternal life) through which we prolong our days upon the land (the World to Come). For the Torah tells us to obey Messiah, to listen to his voice, and thus have our sins forgiven (Ex 23:20-21)

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the Way, and to bring thee into the place (temple mount, World to Come) which I have prepared.

21 Take heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; be not rebellious against him; for he will not pardon your transgression; for My name is in him​
.

If we listen to Messiah, and are not rebellious against him, we will have our sins forgiven, and we will be kept on the Way, all the way to “life” and “prolonged days in the land.”
Torah then, serves to condemn the rebellious, and give eternal life to the one who listens and does not rebel against Messiah (for it is his merit that is credited to us and based on his righteousness alone do we receive his inheritance of eternal life as promised to him by the Torah).


....it would be foolish to disagree that we are not perfect when it comes to Torah keeping, yet Torah by design never intended us to be perfect or else it would not teach teshuvah – repentance that leads eternal life, by the mercy of G-d, or sacrificial atonement in order that we may draw physically near to a holy G-d in these corrupt bodies and not get fried. We are called to judge ourselves in order that we may continue to be aware of the price Messiah paid for our redemption, and live who we are in the world to come, in the now and present of this world. As long as we are like Adam, just as he was when he was alive before he died, our bread, our obedience to Torah will only come by the sweat of our brow, and will be hindered by thorns and thistles.

Yet it is not impossible to obey the command “love the L-rd your G-d…” at even the tiniest level, as we find that this leads to listening to and obeying Messiah, thus having our sins forgiven, and thus living forever in the World to Come with him based on his merit alone.

Yes Torah teaches us that we need mercy, and explains to us that G-d will “have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” I pray we all make teshuvah.

Psalm 119:97-104
97 Oh, how I love Your Torah!
It is my meditation all the day. .​

Psalm 119 is a declaration of love of the Torah and its wisdom.

The Torah causes rejoicing because it reveals what we are like.

Imagine if you went to the doctor, he ran some tests and he told you you had a life-threatening illness, and then offered you the antidote. You would be thankful to the doctor for running the tests, and grateful for whoever came up with the tests in the first place.

It’s better to know you’re sick and find a cure than to falsely believe you’re well, and the Torah both reveals our maladies and reveals the Great Physician who can heal us.

If the Torah does cause us sorrow, then it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance, repentance which leads to forgiveness, forgiveness which leads to thankfulness, and thankfulness which leads to rejoicing

It’s better to know you’re sick and find a cure than to falsely believe you’re well, and the Torah both reveals our maladies and reveals the Great Physician who can heal us.

If the Torah does cause us sorrow, then it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance, repentance which leads to forgiveness, forgiveness which leads to thankfulness, and thankfulness which leads to rejoicing.





For myself, when it comes to what Peter said about the Law being a Yoke that NO ONE could bear, I try not to make it out as if he couldn't of been mentioning "law" when the entire conversation seemed to be centered around not even trying to get the Gentiles to follow ALL of the Law at any point. I think its best to see that Peter was mentioning how expecting PERFECT Adherence to all aspects of the Law by our merit alone was never the way unto salvation since NO ONE could ever be expected to do that--and those who did so never did it by looking at themselves or their own righteousness.

They looked onto the Lord, who ennabled them to be righteous through the system they had available. ...even though it wasn't necessarily the best God had in mind since much of it was temporary until Christ came as a BETTER means of dealing with the curse of sin/unrighteousness than the sacrifical system of atonement was. Moreover, if one considers how many in scripture may've had messed up lives and yet in their simple faith the Lord justified them/counted them righteous, then one must note that it was never a matter about keeping every jot/tittle of the laws.

Rahab the Prostitute would NEVER have known about all facets of the Torah, yet her faith in what little she knew about Israel's God was enough for the Lord to use her/justify her when it came to her saving the spies..as Joshua 2 and James 2 note. The same goes for Abraham, who was justified before keeping anything related to Law because of his faith in the Lord. Many others can be noted besides that, most notably the centurion in Luke 8 who had unlike any in all of Israel and who amazed the Lord.



Its obvious, IMHO, that anytime Torah is twisted, it can become a danger....but within that twisting, there's also the reality that Torah can become twisted when it leaves out the reality of what Christ came to promise----as it concerns differing dynamics that the Torah promised in relation to the new work of Christ...and certain parts of the OT never being intended to be binding for all time. If that wasn't the case, then neither Paul or Peter or James and the rest of the Jewish council would be correct in discussing the Blood of Jesus being shed and alerting others that forgivness needed to be attainted through Jesus that could not be found in adhering to the Torah alone ( Acts 5:30-32 , Acts 3:18-20 , Acts 11:17-19, Acts 20:20-22 , Acts 26:17-19 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:13-15)



Acts 13:37-39
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The grace that acknowledges God does extend to all areas, but it's not limited to the law. While the law is good in some ways it's an extension of the 10 commandments, while the law of grace is an extension of the law into the spiritual aspect of everyday living. Which is so much more than what goes on in the flesh, it extends to even the thoughts.

The bible contains the old and new covenents, where the Judaists are content with the Torah the Torah doesn't include human interactions with God on a daily basis on the level of thought in coming together with God. The new covenent isn't just the new testement either. It all needs to be read together and reasoned out with God. God extends the grace to do this.

Agree with ya on where you're coming from...and many thanks for noting as you did:)

Derek Leman had some excellent articles on the issue that went into exceptional detail on the matter. For more:


And for other solid articles from a Messianic Jewish perspective, one can investigate the following:


John McKee of TNN Online is also a great resource---as seen in his articles on grace entitled What Does "Under the Law" Really Mean?--A Further Study (PDF) , What Does "Under the Law" Really Mean? (PDF)and What is the New Covenant? (PDF). Our forgivness needed to be attainted through Jesus since it could not be found in adhering to the Torah alone ( Acts 5:30-32 , Acts 3:18-20 , Acts 11:17-19, Acts 20:20-22 , Acts 26:17-19 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:13-15, etc)---and the grace that Messiah offers is truly amazing...
Acts 13:37-39
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 
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SGM4HIM

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After looking at this grace subject, I have to say that I'll stick with regular, old fashioned repentance. Whether grace is imortant or not is beside the question-I think. For, let's say grace works, but can one still have it without repentance? And if not, is it(grace) not just window dressing to make one feel special?

Grace is not a foreign subject to Jews.
Hashem lead his people out of Egypt before giving Torah at Sinai.

It wasn't(isn't) a Christian invention although many Christians overlook the many occurrences found in the Tanakh.

P.S. I agree with your repentance statements.
 
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stone

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Okay, someone else brought up the need for this and no one has started a thread, so I guess I'll do it.

What is grace?
Why is grace and Torah observance so seemingly diametrically opposed to one another? (Keeping in mind, that those of us on this forum anyway, keep Torah because we are saved, not because we think it will gain us salvation or any extra merit.)
Each one's thoughts are welcomed.

My 1st thought is, how can you say that the Torah and grace are opposed to one another and not know what grace is? Your asking for a definition of grace and yet in the same post say that they are opposed as if you already know what grace is and yet, impose that you don't know? Is this like one of those strawman things?
 
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yedida

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My 1st thought is, how can you say that the Torah and grace are opposed to one another and not know what grace is? Your asking for a definition of grace and yet in the same post say that they are opposed as if you already know what grace is and yet, impose that you don't know? Is this like one of those strawman things?


I stated in the very first sentence in the OP that someone else suggested a thread be started getting thoughts and opinions on the subject of grace. And note also, that I said "seemingly" opposed. Please don't say that I said something that I did not say, and can prove that I didn't say it.
I think that should cover your questions.
 
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ContraMundum

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After looking at this grace subject, I have to say that I'll stick with regular, old fashioned repentance. Whether grace is imortant or not is beside the question-I think. For, let's say grace works, but can one still have it without repentance? And if not, is it(grace) not just window dressing to make one feel special?

Think of it this way: without grace, even your repentance would be valueless. Our works can never merit mercy, and we cannot demand forgiveness from God by our repentance. Only His mercy makes our repentance both possible and acceptable.
 
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ContraMundum

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Grace is not just God's undeserved mercy and kindness towards us, but also His presence in our lives, transforming us to repentance, good works and holiness.

So, grace and Torah (whatever you might take that to mean, I don't know the OP's position) are not opposed, but one enables the other. Without grace, you would never want to keep the Laws of God nor repent, and without grace, your repentance and law keeping would be nothing.
 
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yedida

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Grace is not just God's undeserved mercy and kindness towards us, but also His presence in our lives, transforming us to repentance, good works and holiness.

So, grace and Torah (whatever you might take that to mean, I don't know the OP's position) are not opposed, but one enables the other. Without grace, you would never want to keep the Laws of God nor repent, and without grace, your repentance and law keeping would be nothing.

You said it sooo much better than I've been trying to do...
I love your statement that it is grace that draws out the desire to obey and repent.
Thank you!!
 
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Seeking Him

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Anyone who says grace is a New Testament concept is without understanding of Who HaShem is.
What I think is interesting is how the prophets must not have had it, to the degree that it came with Jesus, or what would they have looked for it?


1 Peter 1:10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
 
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Seeking Him

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I see grace as a place we were placed in. A new people, an new time.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Seeking Him

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Grace is not a foreign subject to Jews.
Hashem lead his people out of Egypt before giving Torah at Sinai.

It wasn't(isn't) a Christian invention although many Christians overlook the many occurrences found in the Tanakh.

P.S. I agree with your repentance statements.
The only thing is, the day they got the Torah, or not soon after, 3,000 died. I think it is best to say that God is graceful, but true grace did not come until Christ, in a very real way.:)

1 Peter 5:12
By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.


Basically the same thing Paul said, that we stand in grace, a place of joy.


ROMANS 5:2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
 
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What I think is interesting is how the prophets must not have had it, to the degree that it came with Jesus, or what would they have looked for it?


1 Peter 1:10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Grace is revealed through Yeshua... not that it wasn't there before in the same measure.
 
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