Was Stephen a liar? or a prophet?

LittleLambofJesus

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From what I know he was someone who just preached the Gospel to folks and got killed for it....so evangelist
I think our Lord Jesus gave ample warning to his Followers that would happen :sorry:

Matt 23:34 "Because of this behold! I am commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wise-ones and Scribes.
Out of them ye shall be killing and ye shall be crucifying.
And out of them ye shall be scourging in the synagogues of ye and ye shall be persecuting/persuing from city into city"

Matt 24:9 then they shall be delivering ye up into tribulation, and they shall be killing ye, and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations thru/because-of the Name of Me

John 16:2 Putting out of the synagogues they shall be doing ye.
But is coming an hour that every the one killing ye should be supposing a divine service to be offering to the God
[Matthew 23:34/]
 
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yedida

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if so, do you think God forgave him? Is it possible to still be edified by what is written, and that God can still use it? Is He?

I trust the words attributed to Hashem through the hand of Moses and the prophets, and the words of Yeshua in the gospels and chpts 2-3 & 22 of Rev.
I view the rest of what is called the NT as history and commentary, divinely inspired at times, at times not so inspired (where it conflicts with what was written first).
The Living Torah and the Written Torah must agree.
 
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yedida

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What was the purpose of Saul/Paul keeping Stephen's garments? Was it for proof or because he needed some clothes or to give to charity?

Acts 7:58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] --
and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul--

Young) Acts 22:20 and when the blood of thy witness Stephen was being poured forth, I also was standing by and assenting to his death,
and keeping the garments of those putting him to death;
[Acts 7:58/Reve 16:15]

Young) Revelation 16:15 Behold! I do come as a thief;
happy [is] he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not walk naked and they may see his unseemliness,' --

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G2440 matches the Greek ἱμάτιον (himation), which occurs 62 times in 59 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2440. himation him-at'-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of ennumi (to put on); a dress (inner or outer):--apparel, cloke, clothes, garment, raiment, robe, vesture.

Reread acts 7:58 what you yourself highlighted. Their garments does not mean his garments.
 
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yedida

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I would give you "strike one" , but of course you did not produce any evidence that Abraham's father was dead at his departure. As for "strike two". The Septuagint says 75 in Genesis 46:27 and Exodus 1:5. BUT. It says 70 in Deuteronomy 10:22. And 70 in Hebrew texts mentioned here. In the end it comes to logic. Why would a Hebrew speaker use a translation? Was he a Greek speaking to Greeks? Or a Jew speaking to Jews? Luke, who probably wrote it, used the Greek translation and that's how Stephen ended up with 75. Cheers

It's my understanding that the LXX is not a good translation, it has errors.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I trust the words attributed to Hashem through the hand of Moses and the prophets, and the words of Yeshua in the gospels and chpts 2-3 & 22 of Rev.
I view the rest of what is called the NT as history and commentary, divinely inspired at times, at times not so inspired (where it conflicts with what was written first).
The Living Torah and the Written Torah must agree.
Isn't that what Abraham told that Richman in Luke 16:29 :confused:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:28 "For I am having Five Brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment".
29 Abraham is saying to him "they are having Moses and the Prophets let them hear them!".
30 Then he said: "nay! father Abraham, but if ever any from dead-ones may be going forth toward them, they shall be reforming.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Reread acts 7:58 what you yourself highlighted. Their garments does not mean his garments.
Ahhh.....my bad..I got caught up in the heat of the moment I guess and watching the hurricane news at the same time.....mea culpa :blush: :liturgy:

Acts 7:58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] --
and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul--

Enigma - Mea culpa (Catholic version) - YouTube
 
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Torah

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Was Stephen a liar? or a prophet
I was just flabbergasted by the title of the thread.
That is akin to calling Stephen a type of "anti-christ". Did he ever once deny Jesus and His Father?
How do you think implying that Stephen was a liar looks to the Jews that are lurking on here, who do not believe Jesus was their Messiah? Just curious

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV

Young) 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar, except he who is denying that Jesus is the Christ?
this one is the antichrist, who is denying the Father and the Son;
Was Stephen a liar? or a prophet
Originally Posted by Steve Petersen
What do all your Strong's numbers and definitions have to do with the topics, ever!? If you have a point, make it and don't be so cryptic.

I was just flabbergasted by the title of the thread. Were the lies that were brought agents Steven in Acts 16:13-14 true? Did he speak against the holy place and against the law. Or that Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.

That is akin to calling Stephen a type of "anti-christ". Did he ever once deny Jesus and His Father? The Lie that was brought agents Stephen was not about him denying Yeshua. The Lie was what many do teach today.

How do you think implying that Stephen was a liar looks to the Jews that are lurking on here, who do not believe Jesus was their Messiah? Just curious
I am just curious? How do you think the Jews that are lurking here feel when they see that most Christians here teach that the Law and the customs Moses give us are nailed to the cross and done away with.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588224/
 
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jcpro

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What I did disprove was your statement saying that Terah was 145 when Abraham left. I showed that your assumption that Abraham was born when he was 70 was not supported by the style used in Genesis, since the order of their names is not based on the chronology of their birth, and thus this leaves it open for Abraham or any of the brothers to have been born after that time. At least one of the three were born when Terah was 70, but not all three. This, at least, demonstrates your unfamiliarity with the style of Genesis. Afterwards, the next chapter begins with Abraham leaving Haran with Lot.

Genesis 11:31-32
31And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

Note the parts in bold. Lot and Abram were taken by Terah, then Terah dies in Haran:

32And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

In the next chapter, Abram takes Lot:

Gen. 12: 4 - So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
[5] And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

Abram moved Lot and "all the souls" they had gathered in Heran, which makes me think that Abraham was now the leader of the family. While not 100 percent proof, it is interesting that Abraham's departure takes place immediately following the scripture that says Terah died at 205.

And Stephen was not the only one to express this opinion, but also Philo, who lived between 20BC and 50AD:

(From Philo's commentaries: )

(177) Now it is not probable that any one of those persons who are acquainted with the law are ignorant that Abraham had previously migrated from Chaldaea when he came to live in Charran. But after his father died he then departed from this land of Chaldaea , so that he has now migrated from two different places.

Philo

At the least, this disproves that Stephen was an "ignoramus", since this understanding of scripture was not alien to the Jews of that time.

A third and final possible solution, though one I do not necessarily see as necessary, is that some of the commentators allude to the fact that the Rabbis considered Terah spiritually dead, having allegedly reverted to idolatry while living in Haran. At the worst, Stephen was merely speaking to them in terms they understood. None of this justifies your assumptions that Stephen did not know the scripture or that you represent "the jewish point of view" that calls Stephen an ignoramus of scriptures.

As for the second question, as I showed, the alleged discrepancy is reconcilable. And you merely repeated what I myself noted on my own.

It is fascinating that a Jew would try this hard to disparage the NT, but it is impossible for someone who denies Christ to reconcile the book of Daniel and his 70 weeks with his own theology. Thus the Jews, ignoring their own scriptures, are waiting on a Messiah that cannot come according to their own scriptures, since the 70 weeks of Daniel cannot be reconciled 2000 years on unless Jesus fulfilled them.
if he was a leader of the household that makes him first born-that is a safe assumption beside being mentioned first. The rest is a pure speculation since the scripture is silent on why Terah stayed behind. As for Daniel. You should just leave it alone. It was a prophecy about Jews and to the Jews and with all due respect, we don't need help with reconciling it for it was decreed upon My people and upon the city of OUR Sanctuary(Daniel 9:24). How about this? Stephen made no mistakes about Terah, 70 souls, burial locations. He was right. It's the scribes fault. A skillful compromise, eh? We better end this conversation. When the "Christ deniers" pop up, the "Christ killers'" never far behind. cheers:wave:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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if he was a leader of the household that makes him first born-that is a safe assumption beside being mentioned first. The rest is a pure speculation since the scripture is silent on why Terah stayed behind. As for Daniel. You should just leave it alone. It was a prophecy about Jews and to the Jews and with all due respect, we don't need help with reconciling it for it was decreed upon My people and upon the city of OUR Sanctuary(Daniel 9:24). How about this? Stephen made no mistakes about Terah, 70 souls, burial locations. He was right. It's the scribes fault. A skillful compromise, eh? We better end this conversation. When the "Christ deniers" pop up, the "Christ killers'" never far behind. cheers:wave:
Why should Christians leave the book of Daniel alone when Jesus mentions him in the Gospels :confused:
And yes I agree it is about the Jews to the Jews, and Jesus was a Jew from out of the tribe of Judah :wave:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548832/
Where is Abomination of Desolation showing in Revelaton?

Matthew 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet having-stood in a holy place (the one-reading let him be understanding)"
[Daniel 11:31/Mark 13:14/Revelation 1:3]

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the words of the prophecy and keepings in it having been written, for the time is nigh/egguV <1451>.

False prophets in Daniel in the Bible. Revived Roman Empire, Beast of the Apocalypse of Mark, and Antiochus the Selucid Greek

The book of Daniel has become important to Christian theology because the gospel of Mark made constant reference to the book, calling Christ the son of man, and because Mark wrote an apocalypse borrowing the image of the Beast of Daniel's prophecy, which would appear again later in the Christian Apocalypse, the Book of Revelations.
 
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jcpro

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Why should Christians leave the book of Daniel alone when Jesus mentions him in the Gospels :confused:
And yes I agree it is about the Jews to the Jews, and Jesus was a Jew from out of the tribe of Judah :wave:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548832/
Where is Abomination of Desolation showing in Revelaton?

Matthew 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet having-stood in a holy place (the one-reading let him be understanding)"
[Daniel 11:31/Mark 13:14/Revelation 1:3]

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the words of the prophecy and keepings in it having been written, for the time is nigh/egguV <1451>.

False prophets in Daniel in the Bible. Revived Roman Empire, Beast of the Apocalypse of Mark, and Antiochus the Selucid Greek

The book of Daniel has become important to Christian theology because the gospel of Mark made constant reference to the book, calling Christ the son of man, and because Mark wrote an apocalypse borrowing the image of the Beast of Daniel's prophecy, which would appear again later in the Christian Apocalypse, the Book of Revelations.
Again, if you permit me, I will not touch this subject. Suffice to say, Daniel is "Old Testament" and Christians have nothing to gain from it since the dogma says the prophecy has been fulfilled. Since the grace is the reason for salvation, surely Christians don't need the "OT" to validate their beliefs.
 
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brinny

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if he was a leader of the household that makes him first born-that is a safe assumption beside being mentioned first. The rest is a pure speculation since the scripture is silent on why Terah stayed behind. As for Daniel. You should just leave it alone. It was a prophecy about Jews and to the Jews and with all due respect, we don't need help with reconciling it for it was decreed upon My people and upon the city of OUR Sanctuary(Daniel 9:24). How about this? Stephen made no mistakes about Terah, 70 souls, burial locations. He was right. It's the scribes fault. A skillful compromise, eh? We better end this conversation. When the "Christ deniers" pop up, the "Christ killers'" never far behind. cheers:wave:

We, those adopted and grafted into the the "root of David", ARE included in God's family.

I do not claim one particular people as the "killers of Christ", for we ALL killed Christ. It was our SIN that killed Him. God needed the SUPREME, perfect sacrifice that would blast the curse to kingdom come, freeing those who take refuge in Him. For the Father God, the holy God of Israel no longer see such as under a curse, but He sees Christ's perfect righteousness when He looks on such (us).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Again, if you permit me, I will not touch this subject. Suffice to say, Daniel is "Old Testament" and Christians have nothing to gain from it since the dogma says the prophecy has been fulfilled. Since the grace is the reason for salvation, surely Christians don't need the "OT" to validate their beliefs.
:)
I am one of those that view ALL of Daniel fulfilled on the OC Nations of Judah and Israel, or my faith is in vain :blush:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

Luke 21:22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772).

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of this, the prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), for the time nigh.
 
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jcpro

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We, those adopted and grafted into the the "root of David", ARE included in God's family.

I do not claim one particular people as the "killers of Christ", for we ALL killed Christ. It was our SIN that killed Him. God needed the SUPREME, perfect sacrifice that would blast the curse to kingdom come, freeing those who take refuge in Him. For the Father God, the holy God of Israel no longer see such as under a curse, but He sees Christ's perfect righteousness when He looks on such (us).
misunderstanding. I was responding to another poster.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
We, those adopted and grafted into the the "root of David", ARE included in God's family.

I do not claim one particular people as the "killers of Christ", for we ALL killed Christ. It was our SIN that killed Him. God needed the SUPREME, perfect sacrifice that would blast the curse to kingdom come, freeing those who take refuge in Him. For the Father God, the holy God of Israel no longer see such as under a curse, but He sees Christ's perfect righteousness when He looks on such (us).

misunderstanding. I was responding to another poster.

no problem. :)

Could you still respond? Thank you kindly. :)
 
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if he was a leader of the household that makes him first born-that is a safe assumption beside being mentioned first. The rest is a pure speculation since the scripture is silent on why Terah stayed behind. As for Daniel. You should just leave it alone. It was a prophecy about Jews and to the Jews and with all due respect, we don't need help with reconciling it for it was decreed upon My people and upon the city of OUR Sanctuary(Daniel 9:24). How about this? Stephen made no mistakes about Terah, 70 souls, burial locations. He was right. It's the scribes fault. A skillful compromise, eh? We better end this conversation. When the "Christ deniers" pop up, the "Christ killers'" never far behind. cheers:wave:

Genesis 11:28
And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

Haran passed away and Abraham took Lot. It is reasonable to conclude that Haran may have been the eldest. I already demonstrated that the order of names is based on the one who is most significant, using the example of Shem etc, and not the chronology of birth. You should not ignore your own scriptures, and I will not accept your shabby compromises that bring dishonor on the scripture.

And yes, you do obviously need help in understanding your own scriptures. And, FYI, they are just as much mine as anyone elses. I recommend you examine the book of Daniel and see at what time they would have fulfilled... and see who was alive at that time to fulfill them. If Jesus is not the messiah... then there is none, and we are all doomed.

As for your gib about "Christ killers", this is a close minded way to ignore opposing viewpoints. Instead of rebuking others for stealing your scriptures, you ought to learn from them. Pretending to be a victim is no way to gain the truth. And as for myself, I take offense you would even say it, as I am possibly a greater supporter of Israel than most Jews!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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We, those adopted and grafted into the the "root of David", ARE included in God's family........
:)
That is casually mentioned in the jewish/hebrew book of Revelation :angel:

Rotherham) Isaiah 11:1 But there shall come forth a shoot from the stock of Jesse, and a sprout from his roots shall bear fruit. And the spirit of Yahweh shall rest upon him,--

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 5:5 And one out of the elders saying to me "no be lamenting! behold! the Lion conquers, the one out of the tribe of Judah, the root of David to open-up the scroll and the seven seals of it".

Reve 22:16 I Jesus send the Messenger of Me to testify to ye these-things upon the Out-Calleds.
I AM the root and the gener of David, the star, the shining, the morning.
 
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brinny

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:)
That is casually mentioned in the jewish/hebrew book of Revelation :angel:

Rotherham) Isaiah 11:1 But there shall come forth a shoot from the stock of Jesse, and a sprout from his roots shall bear fruit. And the spirit of Yahweh shall rest upon him,--

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Reve 5:5 And one out of the elders saying to me "no be lamenting! behold! the Lion conquers, the one out of the tribe of Judah, the root of David to open-up the scroll and the seven seals of it".

Reve 22:16 I Jesus send the Messenger of Me to testify to ye these-things upon the Out-Calleds.
I AM the root and the gener of David, the star, the shining, the morning.

Awesome! This term the "Called-outs" which appears to mean to be "called out"....wow, reminds me of Lazarus, and how Jesus called out his name to the "sleeping" Lazarus, and Lazarus rose, responding to Jesus "calling him" forth.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
no problem.

Could you still respond? Thank you kindly.

Personally, I don't believe I need freeing. We have different concepts of salvation you and I. Unfortunately, if I go any further I'll get in trouble with the powers that be on this site. :(

I understand. Would you PM me, then?

Thank you kindly. :)
 
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