Sacred Ink: Tattoo's within Torah & Writing Messages of the Savior/Shema on Skin

jcpro

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Easy G (G²);58306188 said:
Never said in anything I wrote that the text was about "carving the dead", as if what it was the case that they'd place markings/tattoos upon corpses...and thus, it seems you may not be reading properly what was stated plainly by myself. What was mentioned was that the marks/tattoos were not to be done for the dead--as said earlier in the original post---since the tattoos/markings were done in that culture by other nations to give power to others when it need...and if a loved one had passed away, one would place markings/tattoos on themselves that symbolized whichever spirit they wished to call up....and the same went for deities they wished to show appreciation for. Its why the priests of Baal would slash themselves in order to appease the gods when they didn't answer during the contest between themselves and Elijah.

Again, there is a clear context to the issue of markings/tattoo symbols that can be easily missed.

Indeed, its clear---but as already mentioned, the brand letters/marks were considered wrong when they were done for the DEAD. Tattos and markings were mentioned in unison when it came to the practice of doing so for the dead, in light of Caananite culture.
Maybe. But as with the 3 reasons I provided, it's just a guess since the Mosaic Revelation does not say anything beyond what's stated. Or it just could be that Hashem is not a big fun of tatoos-just as valid explanation, btw.
 
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Maybe. But as with the 3 reasons I provided, it's just a guess since the Mosaic Revelation does not say anything beyond what's stated..
I feel ya when it comes to the issue of how much of discussion is simply our best guess....and thus, at the end of the day, there'll never be agreement on the subject nor should it be expected. For myself, I find it important for one to study/understand culturally what was going on in the surrounding nations before reading the Mosaic Revelations given...as they again weren't written in a vaccum or in ways that didn't make sense. There are many good books on the issue, as shared earlier when it comes to reads such as Israel’s Beneficent Dead: Ancestor Cult and Necromancy in Ancient Israelite Religion and Tradition and Judahite Burial Practices and Beliefs About the Dead (Jsots Series No 123).
.

As other nations were very much into seeking the spirits of the dead/deities by cutting themselves and honoring them, its logical to see how the text of Leviticus would mention tattoos and markings within that context....and not be speaking about all forms of inflicting cuts onto the Body. The issue of certain cuts being inflicted is already apparent in the fact of what the Mosaic revelation shows with circumcision--a PERMANENT mark on the flesh. That markings such as that occurred amongst the Hebrews for the sake of worship unto the Lord shows that not all forms of marking were wrong....as what Leviticus was discussing was those done for the sake of religious purposes unto idolatrous intents.

If one were to say Leviticus 21:4-6 or Leviticus 19:27-29 on not making cuttings or marks on the flesh was referring to all kinds/instances, then they'd be going counter to one of the central things within a Judaic worldview--and what's interesting to consider with circumcision is that the practice was ALREADY being done by other nations long before the Lord gave it to the Hebrews to symbolize their relationships with Him. For more, one can consider the following:


Jeremiah 9:24-26 also discusses this when it came to the nations of Egypt, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the wilderness in distant places. Though the other nations did circumcision for the sake of health reasons primarily, the Lord wanted His people to physically mutilate themselves with circumsion for worship unto Him/relationship.

Outside of circumcisions, there's also the issue of where God placed marks in differing ways. One can consider Genesis 4:14-16 with the mark He placed upon Cain to spare Him..and for another:
Ezekiel 9:4
and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
Ezekiel 9:3-5 / Ezekiel 9

Ezekiel 9:6
Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
Ezekiel 9:5-7
People often discuss how only someone wishing to serve the anti-christ would be about markings...as that's what seems to occur in Revelation 13:15-17 / Revelation 13 /Revelation 14:8-10 Revelation 14 /Revelation 15:1-3 / Revelation 16:1-3 / Revelation 19:19-21 / Revelation 19 / Revelation 20:3-5 when it comes to recieving the "mark of the beast"--and with that, at times the scriptures in Leviticus are used in association. But the TANAK already shows instances where marking was done by the Lord as well. For more instances of the Lord Himself marking His people, As said earlier when considering what Isaiah 44:5 says:





Isa 44:5
One will say, I am the Lord's; and another will call himself by the name of Jacob; and another will write [even brand or tattoo] upon his hand, I am the Lord's, and surname himself by the [honorable] name of Israel.


For those following Yeshua as the Messiah, it is interesting to see how Jesus had WRITTEN Language on Himself---as seen in "Revelation 19:16 " when it says, "He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. " As said there:
Revelation 19:15

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Or it just could be that Hashem is not a big fun of tatoos-just as valid explanation, btw
Could be the case that Hashem may not like Tattoos at all alongside all other markings/incisions on flesh (i.e. surgery, dentist, etc). But I think it may not be likely when knowing the historical context. With tattoos or markings being physical cuts upon the body to symbolize something, one would have to see all instances of that in scripture to make a case that God was always 100% against any kind of markings...

psalm-1-tattoo-d-m-tattoodonkey.com.jpg

Flower_Climb_Tattoo_Design_by_2Face_Tattoo.jpg
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I've seen some that are gorgeous but no matter how pretty, I can't imagine committing to something like that on your body.
The process of pain is often the main reason people avoid them---and alongside that, there's the issue of knowing that one may not be able to remove it from their body possibly​

But once its done, for those going through it, it is rather beautiful​

hebrew-tattoo-john-10.jpg



hebrewtattoo0018.jpg




hebrewtattoo006.jpg

 
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yedida

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Easy G (G²);58306497 said:
The process of pain is often the main reason people avoid them---and alongside that, there's the issue of knowing that one may not be able to remove it from their body possibly

In the same line of thinking, the process of pain, that is, is, for many cultures, one of the reasons for having it done, it's kind of a right to manhood/womanhood. (From what I remember of some documentaries I've watched.)
 
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In the same line of thinking, the process of pain, that is, is, for many cultures, one of the reasons for having it done, it's kind of a right to manhood/womanhood. (From what I remember of some documentaries I've watched.)

Pain as a means of entering into manhood is truly one of the greatest reasons why others practice markings....though there are differing ways of that occurring, such as one learning how to fight or finally killing something in a hunt and a host of other things. Some actually have it where they have it where boys as young as 12 must stick their hands in a pair of specially made gloves full of tropical ants...and endure it to prove themselves a warrior. For another I know of, as a sign of entry into manhood, boys of this tribe suffer thousands of razor-blade cuts to make their skin resemble a crocodile's.

I'd take anything that'd allow me to avoid pain to show oneself handsome/worthy as a man...or beautiful/virtuous as a woman :)...but for others who do so, its amazing. SOme of that was dicussed in the previous thread on modesty/beauty (as seen here in #68 ) when it came to some documentaries offered on subjects like those marking their bodies with things such as Brass Neck rings that bruise the shoulders/collar bones ..or, for that matter, choosing to mark their bodies by putting incisions in their lips to place pottery plates in for attraction...and sharpening teeth.

Concerning the videos on such:





 
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In the same line of thinking, the process of pain, that is, is, for many cultures, one of the reasons for having it done, it's kind of a right to manhood/womanhood. (From what I remember of some documentaries I've watched.)
Some of it is interesting to consider, in light of how painful it'd be for one to go through the rite of circumcision as an older adult (like it was for Abraham and his household in Genesis 17 or the men of Sheckem in Genesis 34:25-31 when the men had severe incapacity owing to the circumcision....and in the Hebrew culture, many things were not available for access unless one was willing to go through the rite of circumcision.

Apart from that, would you happen to remember the names of the specific documentaries you were able to watch back in the day on the issue? Would be curious to see them for myself
 
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yedida

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Easy G (G²);58306665 said:
Some of it is interesting to consider, in light of how painful it'd be for one to go through the rite of circumcision as an older adult (like it was for Abraham and his household in Genesis 17 or the men of Sheckem in Genesis 34:25-31 when the men had severe incapacity owing to the circumcision....and in the Hebrew culture, many things were not available for access unless one was willing to go through the rite of circumcision.

Apart from that, would you happen to remember the names of the specific documentaries you were able to watch back in the day on the issue? Would be curious to see them for myself

Sorry, no. They are shown on TLC, DOC, NatGeo, etc. all the time though.

From your prevous post, the video (sorry, things going on, so haven't watched them, yet) first one under "scarification" the dude (?) with the plate in mouth, in custume, holding an mp3 player REALLY looked weird - soooo strange to my world and yet there is my world right along side of it. Really a strange feeling viewing that shot.
 
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anisavta

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Interesting that it says in Deut. 6:8 Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, 9 and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates.

Notice it doesn't say write them on your hand or forehead. HaShem makes it specific as to where He wants His commands written.
 
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jcpro

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Easy G (G²);58306665 said:
Some of it is interesting to consider, in light of how painful it'd be for one to go through the rite of circumcision as an older adult (like it was for Abraham and his household in Genesis 17 or the men of Sheckem in Genesis 34:25-31 when the men had severe incapacity owing to the circumcision....and in the Hebrew culture, many things were not available for access unless one was willing to go through the rite of circumcision.

Apart from that, would you happen to remember the names of the specific documentaries you were able to watch back in the day on the issue? Would be curious to see them for myself
They use pain killers for the adult "snip and dip" these days.
 
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Interesting that it says in Deut. 6:8 Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, 9 and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates.

Notice it doesn't say write them on your hand or forehead. HaShem makes it specific as to where He wants His commands written.
As the text was never about all instances of what's written, indeed, its a beautiful text for a specific situation. The same goes for Deuteronomy 11:17-19 / Deuteronomy 11, which says to bind his words on one's forehead.There were about 4 others, however, where the Lord said "mark it on their heads/hands" when it came to things he desired/His commands......and thus, one has to go with the entire council of the Word.

And as Jesus Himself, again, did:
Revelation 19:15

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The King of Kings has written language on his body--his hip/thigh to be specific-and as He and Hashem are ONE, I take His example seriously when it comes to language..:)


 
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They use pain killers for the adult "snip and dip" these days.
Thank the Lord that they do so..though they also do so for other rites that'd often be painful such as Tattoos
 
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Sorry, no. They are shown on TLC, DOC, NatGeo, etc. all the time though..
Got ya. Generally, it can be hard at times when it comes to how the shows can be so spaced out....but I do enjoy NatGeo and Discovery Channel.
From your prevous post, the video (sorry, things going on, so haven't watched them, yet) first one under "scarification" the dude (?) with the plate in mouth, in custume, holding an mp3 player REALLY looked weird -
Funny how they look right back at us and say the same things in how we dress and what we value.
soooo strange to my world and yet there is my world right along side of it.
So true...
Really a strange feeling viewing that shot
If one grew up there, I wonder how different it'd be if we were see ourselves/others outside of that culture looking back.....

Would be so much more simpler if clothing was the focus as opposed to body mutiliation..



 
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anisavta

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There were about 4 others, however, where the Lord said "mark it on their heads/hands" when it came to things he desired/His commands......and thus, one has to go with the entire council of the Word.
Context of these passages please.
 
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Context of these passages please.

I'd love to discuss context with you, though I'd also ask the same of yourself as well...concerning context of the ones given by yourself when it comes to you being against tattoos/markings.
8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? 9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.

Deuteronomy 6:4-14
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.[a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
Deuteronomy 11:18-19
18 Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
Within the OT, remembering things that the Lord had said was a BIG deal...and the Lord often repeated throughout the scriptures that He desired of His people to remember what He said the Way that He said it. Thus, when it comes to things such as Deuteronomy 6:8 or Deuteronomy 11, it makes logical sense as to why the Lord desired physical representation of what He had told them since that'd help with the process of memory. On Deuteronomy 6, it is focused upon how a man ties anything to his hand for a token, that he may remember somewhat he is desirous of. The Jews understood this literally, of binding a scroll of parchment, with this section and others written in it, upon their left hand, as the Targum of Jonathan here interprets the hand. ...and which the same Targum interprets of the Tephilim, or phylacteries, which the Jews wear upon their foreheads, and on their arms. Jesus referenced this in Matthew 23 when it came to his condemnation of the Pharisees for their phylacteries they showed off

As said best by John Gill's Exposition of the Bible:
Matthew 23:5But all their works they do for to be seen of men

All their prayers, alms deeds, and fastings, were all done in a public manner, that men might behold them, and they might have applause and glory from them: they sought neither the glory of God, nor the good of their fellow creatures, nor any spiritual advantage and pleasure to themselves, in their performances; they neither attended to moral duties, nor ceremonious rites, nor the traditions of their fathers, any further than they could be seen by men in them, and keep up their credit and esteem among them. Hence,

they make broad their phylacteries:
these were four sections of the law, wrote on parchments, folded up in the skin of a clean beast, and tied to the head and hand. The four sections were these following, viz. the "first", was ( Exodus 13:2-11 ) the "second", was ( Exodus 13:11-17 ) the "third", was ( Deuteronomy 6:4-10 ) the "fourth", was ( Deuteronomy 11:13-22 ) . Those that were for the head, were written and rolled up separately, and put in four distinct places, in one skin, which was fastened with strings to the crown of the head, towards the face, about the place where the hair ends, and where an infant's brain is tender; and they took care to place them in the middle, that so they might be between the eyes. Those that were for the hand, were written in four columns, on one parchment, which being rolled up, was fastened to the inside of the left arm, where it is fleshy, between the shoulder and the elbow, that so it might be over against the heart F21. These, they imagined, were commanded them by God, in ( Exodus 13:16 ) ( Deuteronomy 6:8 ) whereas the sense of these passages only is, that the goodness of God in delivering them out of Egypt, and the words of the law, should be continually before them, in their minds and memories, as if they had tokens on their hands, and frontlets between their eyes; but they understood them literally, and observed them in the above manner.

These the Jews call "Tephillin", because they use them in time of prayer, and look upon them as useful, to put them in mind of that duty: they are here called "phylacteries", because they thought they kept them in the fear of God, preserved in them the memory of the law, and them from sin; yea, from evil spirits, and diseases of the body. They imagined there was a great deal of holiness in, and valued themselves much upon the use of them {w}; and the Pharisees, because they would be thought to be more holy and religious, and more observant of the law than others, wore these things broader than the rest of the people;

and enlarge the borders of their garments.
These were the fringes which they put upon the borders of their garments, and on them a ribbon of blue, to put them in mind of the commandments, to obey them, ( Numbers 15:38 ) ( Deuteronomy 22:12 ) . The observance of this law is of so much consequence with the Jews, that they make all the commandments to depend on it F24; and say, that it is equal to them all, and that he that is guilty of the breach of it, is worthy of death F25: they ascribe the like virtue to these fringes, as to their phylacteries, and think themselves much the better for the wearing them; and the Pharisees, because they would appear with a greater air of sanctity and devotion than others, made their's larger. We F26 read of one Ben Tzitzith Hacceseth, a man of this complexion, who was so called, because his Tzitzith, or fringes, were drawn upon, a pillow; and there are some that say, that the pillow was bore between the great men of Rome: it was drawn after him, not upon the ground, but upon a cloth or tapestry, and the train supported by noblemen, as is pretended. This was one of those, that enlarged the Tzitzith, or fringes, beyond the ordinary size; hence Mark calls it, "long clothing."
On Deuteronomy 6:9,, where it says "And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thine house, and on thy gates.", the Jews took this liteally as well...for they realized the call to put God's commands in mind of them when they went out and came in, that they might be careful to observe them. Because the Jews took this literally, they chose to write in a scroll of parchment this section with some passages. And, as the Targum of Jonathan here, fix them in three places, over against the bed chamber, upon the posts of the house, and on the gate at the right hand of it. This is what they call the Mezuzah. In a parchment prepared for the purpose, they write the words in ( Deuteronomy 6:4-9 ) ( 11:13-20 ) and then roll up the parchment, and write on it "Shaddai"; and put it either into a cane (or reed), or else into a like hollow piece of wood, and so fasten it to the wall on the posts of the door at the right hand of entrance; and thus, as often as they go in and out, they make it a part of their devotion to touch this parchment, and kiss it .

The ways the Jewish people utilized a literal system to aid with memory is rather fascinating..but again, it is but one way to do so and never in the text did the Lord say that how they were to memorize was the ONLY way they could do so---similarly to a parent isn't limiting their child to ONLY making their beds/washing their clothes if they mention it when saying "Clean your room." Some of the main ways of cleaning a room are brought up, with room being left open for other ways of doing so that were not explictly outlined...


With Deuteronomy 6:6-9, Moses' instruction is to be internalized by the faithful (Psalm 37:31, Proverbs 3:3, Isaiah 51:7, Jeremiah 31:33) and outwardly displayed in witness to personal and communal identity among the people of God. They understood that they were to treasure up the laws of God delivered to them in their minds, retain them in their memories, and cherish a cordial affection for them; which would be an antidote against apostasy, idolatry, and other sins, ( Psalms 119:11 ). That, however, is not something that can be utilized to say no kinds of markings can be written upon one's flesh since there are already examples of that where the Lord said clearly for others to be marked---and it was NOT in the sense of having headbands or on doorframes. How something occurred in one setting doesn't define necessarily how it applies in all others
 
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Context of these passages please.
On other passages to consider, I will try to go through each systematically..and prayerfully, in a manner that can be easily understood. If others disagree, cool--as asking questions is appropriate ( Proverbs 18:17 )...but I do ask that it'd be sincerly addressed rather than skipped over

On the foundational text of Leviticus 19:28, the context of tattoos/marks seemed to be explictly in regards for the dead. According to John Gills Commentary:
Leviticus 19:28Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead,
&c.] Either with their nails, tearing their cheeks and other parts, or with any instrument, knife, razor Jarchi says, it was the custom of the Amorites, when anyone died, to cut their flesh, as it was of the Scythians, as Herodotus relates, even those of the royal family; for a king they cut off a part of the ear, shaved the hair round about, cut the arms about, wounded the forehead and nose, and transfixed the left hand with arrows; and so the Carthaginians, who might receive it from the Phoenicians, being a colony of theirs, used to tear their hair and mouths in mourning, and beat their breasts ; and with the Romans the women used to tear their cheeks in such a manner that it was forbid by the law of the twelve tables, which some have thought was taken from hence: and all this was done to appease the infernal deities, and to give them satisfaction for the deceased, and to make them propitious to them, as Varro affirms; and here it is said to be made "for the soul", for the soul of the departed, to the honour of it, and for its good, though the word is often used for a dead body: now, according to the Jewish canons F7, whosoever made but one cutting for a dead person was guilty, and to be scourged; and he that made one for five dead men, or five cuttings for one dead man, was obliged to scourging for everyone of them


nor print any marks upon you;
Aben Ezra observes, there are some that say this is in connection with the preceding clause, for there were who marked their bodies with a known figure, by burning, for the dead; and he adds, and there are to this day such, who are marked in their youth in their faces, that they may be known; these prints or marks were made with ink or black lead, or, however, the incisions in the flesh were filled up therewith; but this was usually done as an idolatrous practice; so says Ben Gersom, this was the custom of the Gentiles in ancient times, to imprint upon themselves the mark of an idol, to show that they were his servants; and the law cautions from doing this, as he adds, to the exalted name (the name of God): in the Misnah it is said , a man is not guilty unless he writes the name, as it is said, ( Leviticus 19:28 ) ; which the Talmudists and the commentators interpret of the name of an idol, and not of God: I [am] the Lord; who only is to be acknowledged as such, obeyed and served, and not any strange god, whose mark should be imprinted on them.



Claiming marks in general as a forbidden thing doesn't go with the rest of the Biblical text when it comes to the issue of marks already made by the Lord. Outside of the issue of circumcision, which is a permanent marking/physical alteration to one's flesh, God already placed marks in differing ways. One can consider Genesis 4:14-16 with the mark He placed upon Cain to spare Him. Away from human habitation and the protection of his kin, Cain was vulnerable to violence/murder..and God granted him mercy by applying a visible mark on Cain similar to the brand that identifies the owner of a slave.

For another:
Ezekiel 9:4
and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”


Ezekiel 9:6
Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
Ezekiel 9:5-7
With Ezekiel 9:5-7, God commands the scribe to place a mark on those who sigh and groan over all the abominations. The Hebrew word translated mark is a vocalization of the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, taw, which would have been written as an X. One might think that the individuals so designated were to be spared (much like it was with the protective markings of Passover in Exodus 12:23), but the remainder of the vision does not explictly report that any individuals were marked and spared.

As said best by John Gill's Commentary on the Bible when it comes to the letter:
and set a mark upon the foreheads;
not the Hebrew letter (t) , as some say, because in the form of a cross, and so signifying salvation by the cross of Christ; for this letter has no such form, neither in the characters used by the Jews, nor by the Samaritans, at least in the present character; though Origen and Jerom on the place say that the letter "tau" had the form of a cross in the letters the Samaritans used in their time; and this is defended by Walton , who observes, that Azariah in his Hebrew alphabet gives a double figure, one like that which is in present use, and another in the form of a cross, called St. Andrew's cross, and as it appears in some shekels; and in the Vatican alphabet, which Angelus E Roccha published, the last letter has the form of a cross; as have the Ethiopic and Coptic alphabets, which, it is certain, sprung from the ancient Hebrew; and so Montfaucon says, in some Samaritan coins, the letter "thau" has the form of a cross; which, if Scaliger had met with, he says he would never have opposed the testimonies of Origen and Jerom; though, after all, it seems to be no other than the form of the Greek "x"; and so the Talmudists say the high priest, was anointed on his forehead in the same form: some think this letter was the mark, because it is the first letter of the word (hrwt) , "the law"; as if it pointed out such who were obedient to it; or of the word (hyxt) "thou shall live". It is a Rabbinical fancy, mentioned by Kimchi, that Gabriel had orders to write the letter (t) in ink upon the foreheads of the righteous, and in blood upon the foreheads of the wicked; in the one it signified (hyxt) , "thou shall live", and in the other (twmt) , "thou shall die"; but, as Calvin observes, rather, if this letter could be thought to be meant, the reason of it was, because it is the last letter of the alphabet; and so may signify, that the Lord's people marked with it are the last among men, or the faith of the world; or that such who persevere to the end shall be saved: but the word signifies, not a letter, but a mark or sign; and so it is interpreted in the Septuagint version, and by the Targum, Jarchi, Kimchi, and others; and denotes the distinction the Lord had made by his grace between them and others; and now by his power and providence in the protection of them; for the, Lord knows them that are his, and will preserve them. The allusion is either to the marking of servants in their foreheads, by which they were known who they belonged to, ( Revelation 7:3 ) ; or to the sprinkling of the posts of the Israelites' houses with blood, when the firstborn of Egypt were destroyed, ( Exodus 12:22Exodus 12:23 )






For another:
Isaiah 44:5
5 Some will say, ‘I belong to the LORD’;
others will call themselves by the name of Jacob;
still others will write on their hand, ‘The LORD’s,’
and will take the name Israel.

The word, “write” was correctly understood to mean mark or tattoo and as the 6th century Greek historian, Procopius, noted on this place in Isaiah, “Many Christians imitated the practice by marking their wrist or their arm with the sign of the cross or with the name of Christ.”

As mentioned earlier, as it concerns the issue of "mark his arm/hand" in scripture, it was customary for slaves to be marked with owner's name.

For more information, Professor Aaron Demsky of Bar-Ilan University, in an article in the Encyclopaedia Judaica ("Writing"), suggested that non-idolatrous tattooing may have been permitted in biblical times. He cites the following biblical references such as Isaiah stating"One shall say, 'I am the Lord's,' and another shall use the name of Jacob, and another shall mark his arm 'of the Lord' and adopt the name of Israel" (Isaiah 44:5)--and alongside that, the other scripture that states, "See, I have engraved You on the palms of my hands…" (Isaiah 49:16). There was also one in Job stating" ...is a sign on every man's hand that all men may know His doings" (Job 37:7). While these verses may be purely metaphoric, Demsky suggests they could be taken literally as instances of tattooing that were acceptable in biblical times. He goes on to add that A. Cowley (in his 1923 book Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century B.C.) showed that in Elephantine [a city in Hellenistic Egypt], slaves of Jews were marked with the names of their owners as was the general practice.


There are some excellent articles on such--and for more, one can go online/investigate the article entitled What Role Does Levitical Law Play In The Life Of Believers? Should Believers Get Tatoo’s? (Question And Answer Response )- ParadoxParables"

The other scripture which also stands out is the following:
Song of Solomon 8:6
Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame.

The BEAUTIFUL poetic story of Song of Solomon describes two godly lovers learning to come together after a season of courtship. And on the issue, its interesting to see what the woman asks for her husband to do. The phrase "set me as a seal upon your heart...upon your arm" may have the sense of "impress me as a seal onto your heart and arm." In this case, the idea is that she be indelibly stamped onto his heart (that is, onto his emotions and inner commitment) and onto his arm (meaning, as with God's commandments in Deuteronomy 6:6-8, onto his actions). And, considering the identification imagery, she may have been asking that the man be completely identified with her...and that in observing him, all would see a man wholly devoted to her (her name being figuratively tattooed on his arm, as we might think of it today). Moreover, there may be a sense here of a mark of ownership that the man would willingly belong, and be seen as belonging, to her (in this apparent recommitment to marriage with its mutual possession).



Outside of that...again, as it concerns context, the same is asked of yourself as it concerns addressment of the ones that were given out/explained in detail. If one disagrees, cool..but at least addressment can be offered...most of all the one here stating Jesus having language written on his body:
Revelation 19:15

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. '


Outside of that, there's also the issue of what Revelation 3:12 says when it comes to scripture on Jesus writing physical language upon his people:
Revelation 3:12

12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.


 
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Gxg (G²)

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I passed a lady today that
had a 8" tattoo around her neck, like a large choker necklace. Had the
devil as the main feature and some demons around it. She may think
that is cool as a 20 year old, but when she is much older, she's going
to regret it..particularly if she gets religious in later years...

Never did make any sense as to why people thought having pictures of demons and devil's on your body was in any way a "cool" thing to have. For there are far better designs that actually are rather simple and yet beautiful...especially those of the flower kind:

--and its rather amazing to see the finished products that can come out of it with specific designs with tattoos t:



Hawaiian-Flower-Tattoos-orchid.jpg

1309258834-34.jpg


Flower-Tattoo-Designs-1.jpg



347627-Pink_Flower_heart_tribal_TaT_by_2Face_Tattoo.jpg
 
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anisavta

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I'm sorry but no matter what tats you come up with - and there are many out there to choose from - I find it unattractive and offensive. It grates against my spirit. HaShem made it clear as to how He wants His people to live and be separated from the world's ideals no matter how popular it is or how one can justify it.
As a Christian Gentile I guess it's a matter of seeing how much grace trumps commands.
 
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A

aniello

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I'm sorry but no matter what tats you come up with - and there are many out there to choose from - I find it unattractive and offensive. It grates against my spirit. HaShem made it clear as to how He wants His people to live and be separated from the world's ideals no matter how popular it is or how one can justify it.
As a Christian Gentile I guess it's a matter of seeing how much grace trumps commands.

ani, I agree with you to the 9's. The command is simple. Don't.

Easy G may I ask just where, or what, do you seek for this topic to end up at, or for, or whatever, what is it supposed to prove or ?????

I could really give excruciating details of what my dad's tribe does, say, during "Vision Quest/Sun Dance" on the rez in S.D., lots of cuttings(and other things), I myself have the scars, on my arms and my chest and back. But I WILL NOT! Why? Before the Holy G-d of Yisrael, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moshe, all the prophets, John the Baptist, Yeshua, the gospel writers, even Paul, yes Before the one and only Holy G-d, all of what my poor, uninformed tribe does is TRASH, and I will NOT help spread it, nor its influence, down some useless rabbit trail which this thread seems to be. For us it's a family thing and we should keep it there, outsiders are really without need to be there. "Vision Quest/Sun Dance" is just one of our funky old traditions that beyond maintaining tradition, and certain things pertaining to our traditions, is certainly of no profitable use, not speaking of money of course. There are suckers who will pay money to see "little performances" of what they think is the "real thing". P.T. Barnum, we thank you.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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no matter what tats you come up with - and there are many out there to choose from - I find it unattractive and offensive..
As it was never a concern as to making you find any tattoos attractive, it doesn't matter in the long run how you may feel on it. For that has no bearing on the subject of what the scriptures say...and whether or not its Biblical. If you find them to be attractive/offensive, by all means you are free to feel that way. But the bottom line is that it has never been the case that all within the Body of Yeshua have felt such---and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder on a myriad of issues. What YOU may consider beautiful in how you dress personally may not be what someone else considers to be Biblical or attractive...but as you choose to do so anyhow/believe you have warrant scripturally, the same goes for those doing differently.
It grates against my spirit. HaShem made it clear as to how He wants His people to live and be separated from the world's ideals no matter how popular it is or how one can justify it.


Sorry..but trying to claim something's the "world" simply because you disagree with it doesn't go with honoring what HaShem has already said in the Torah. For the reality is that you already do so yourself what you condemn in others when trying to say that something done by others in the world is what you shouldn't do.

Some of this was discussed more in-depth in other places when it came to the issue of context/what it means to be "seperate"...as seen here. For some examples, Witches drink coffee at Starbucks...and yet you drink Coffee. Does that mean you're now "of the world" simply because a pagan has done something/its popular? Those who are into Paganism often utilized herbal elements to make things for curing the human body of certain illnesses. Does that mean logically that now you/all others who may be either Jewish or Messianic are in sin for trying to be about "ORGANIC" foods/herbal remidies when it comes to using God's creation to help others?

The internet itself is something that was made NOT by a Christian..but those in the world, yet here we all are utilizing it for the Glory of God because its a blessing---and regardless of how others choose to use it for a host of issues (i.e. Gossip, inappropriate contentagraphy, etc), we use it for good. Does that now mean that you're "of the world" because you used it for a differing purpose than what it was used for/intended in another cultural context? Of course not....and to say otherwise would not be logical.

Its the same when it comes to the subject of Tattoo/marks, as the historical context was about specifically making them unto FALSE Gods and the DEAD. Never was it for condemning all aspects of it since there are (as discussed in-depth) multiple times where the Lord marked His people....and He Himself was marked. You have not even tried to address that, so I'll have to assume you may not be really concerned with addressing what the Torah says in its fullness....and that's not surprising since you already said that you simply don't like Tattoo/marks. I hope that its not the case that your bias toward Tattoos/marks is something you've chosen to lean toward while ignoring what HaShem has said....for that would be a matter of innacuracy.


Proverbs 20:23
The LORD detests differing weights, and dishonest scales do not please him
We have to let the Bible say what it says....and that is something which has not honestly been done thus far by many who say "Tatto's are wrong because the WORLD has them/HaShem wants us to be seperate!!!!".. That's something that's rather astounding in light of the examples of others in the Bible many don't seem to address when it comes to those who worked in the world/impacted it... whether Joseph in Egypt/having an Egyptian Wife (plus shaving his beard in accordance with Egyptian Custom) and the support of unbelieving pharoah to politically impact the lives of millions Genesis 41 or Daniel 1:2 ....or with folks such as Nehemiah 2:13 or Esther

As said best by another:

Before Joseph stood in Pharaoh’s presence, he shaved (Gen. 41:14), which was culturally very significant. A beard was highly regarded in Israel (cf. 2 Sam. 10:4-5), but in Egypt it was not. Joseph revealed wisdom by adapting to the culture of his day, yet in a way that did not violate any biblical principle. A beard was really a matter of culture, not of creed. By taking the Egyptian’s language, their dress, and even an Egyptian wife (cf. Gen. 41:45), Joseph identified himself with the Egyptians in a way that made his ministry more acceptable, yet without any sacrifice of biblical principle.

Perhaps Daniel is the most striking example of cultural concession in the Old Testament. In Daniel 1 we find the prophet and his three Hebrew friends taken captive to Babylon. We know these men best in terms of what they refused to do. All four refused to partake of the king’s choice food and wine (Dan. 1:8-16), which seemed to be associated with idolatrous worship. (In this case, it would be consistent with the prohibitions of Acts 15:20, 29.) Daniel refused to cease praying (Dan. 6), and his three friends would not bow down to the golden image (Dan. 3). In focusing our attention on what these four men refused to do we sometimes fail to take note of the cultural concession they were willing make. They were submissive to the king’s requirements by becoming educated in the schools of Babylon for three years, and of serving the king as advisors. These men, even in their youth, had the God-given wisdom to discern between what was culturally acceptable and what was not. They were able to faithfully serve God and to be witnesses to Him, even in a pagan land, because they could discern the elements of that culture which were an offense to God



As a Christian Gentile I guess it's a matter of seeing how much grace trumps commands.

Actually, whether one is a Christian Gentile (or Hebrew Christian) or a Messianic Gentile/Messianic Jew would make no difference on the issue of commands---as the Torah commands already make allowance for tattoos/marks in differing settings and outlined specifically what kind were not to be allowed.

There are many solid resources that have done much coverage on the issue--and in example, for a more in depth review of tattoo and the Bible, check out (Im)Morality of Tattoos. As said best by that specific ministry when it comes to Torah command:

The main scripture that concerns many people with regards to tattooing is this verse from the remarkable Old Testament book of Leviticus
“You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.” Leviticus 19:28 — New American Standard
At first glance this passage seems to indicate that tattoo is forbidden for Christians. To comprehend the Scripture correctly, we must always examine the whole of Scripture and look at the particular context of a given passage. If we neglect deep study we will never truly understand the intent of the author. We need to look at the word(s) of the above passage in full connection with the surrounding verses, and in context with the historic setting at the time of its writing. When we study below the surface of this text, we then will see more clearly what God says about tattoo. The verse quoted above is part of a larger passage of scripture seen here.
26 ‘You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. 27 You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. 28 ‘You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. 29 ‘Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness. 30 ‘You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD. 31 ‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:26–31 — New American Standard
In this passage God is speaking to his covenant people Israel. He is specifically telling them to stay far from the religious practices of the surrounding people groups. The prohibited religious practices in these verses include eating bloody meat, fortune telling, certain hair cuts related to the priests of false cults, cutting or marking the body for dead relatives, cultic prostitution and consulting psychics. All these practices would lead God's beloved people away from Him and toward false gods that were not Gods at all. In the midst of this context we find the word translated “tattoo marks” in verse 28. It is important to note here that the context of this passage is not one of body décor but one of marking one's self in connection with cultic religious worship. Bible commentaries tell us much about the eastern religious practices that God was warning His people to shun.
These prohibitions seem to relate to pagan religious customs which should be avoided, including pagan mourning rites (vv. 27-28) Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983–c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary: An exposition of the scriptures. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
The practice of making deep gashes on the face and arms and legs, in time of bereavement, was universal among the heathen, and it was deemed a becoming mark of respect for the dead, as well as a sort of propitiatory offering to the deities who presided over death and the grave. The Jews learned this custom in Egypt, and though weaned from it, relapsed in a later and degenerate age into this old superstition (Is 15:2; Je 16:6; 41:5). “nor print any marks upon you” (v:28 )—by tattooing, imprinting figures of flowers, leaves, stars, and other fanciful devices on various parts of their person. The impression was made sometimes by means of a hot iron, sometimes by ink or paint, as is done by the Arab females of the present day and the different castes of the Hindus. It it probable that a strong propensity to adopt such marks in honor of some idol gave occasion to the prohibition in this verse; and they were wisely forbidden. Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. On spine: Critical and explanatory commentary. (Le 19:28). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
“Make any cuttings in your flesh” (v:28): the reference here is to the practice of making deep gashes in the skin while mourning the death of a relative. This was done to provide life blood for the spirit of the dead person rather than to express sorrow. On account of the dead: as indicated above, this describes the purpose of all the actions in verse 27 as well as verse 28. Péter-Contesse, R., & Ellington. (1992). A handbook on Leviticus. UBS handbooks; Helps for translating (Page 296). New York: United Bible Societies.
The “tattoo” marks described in Leviticus 19:28 were clearly related to false religious practices. The word translated tattoo in our English Bibles is the Hebrew word “qa aqa”, this word appears only one time in the Bible, here in this passage Leviticus. The word “qa aqa” means literally “to cut” but taken with the surrounding words indicates a cutting that left a mark imprinted in the skin. This could have been a form of branding, scarring, cutting or a process where ink was inlaid into the skin; there is not enough data to fully define exactly what this word meant. However we translate the word “qa aqa” though, in this passage, it is certainly used in the context of cultic religious worship. The prohibition against “qa aqa”, (translated tattoo) was to keep the Israelites from being involved or affiliated with cultic worship practices.


The tattoo of today is much different than it was for those who originally received the Pentateuch. Today tattoo is a decorative means of self expression and personal decoration. In our current culture people modify their appearance for beauty in many ways such as clothing choice, makeup, plastic surgery, haircutting and coloring, weight loss, body-building, and ear piercing. Some of these practices have a history in ancient ritual and false religion, but in our cultural context they do not denote a connection with evil or false faith. In the same way tattoos today do not link the wearer to cultic worship practices and is not generally practiced for ancient religious purposes, tattoos today are for ornamentation.



 
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