The faithless atheist

KCfromNC

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I am curious as to why so many Christians are always trying to accuse us Atheists of having faith?


Because deep down the realize it is a ridiculous way to make decisions or learn about the world, but if the convince themselves everyone else is doing it they can pretend it isn't so bad.

Ooops, didn't read the rest of your post :

Could it be because deep down they know faith (the type required to believe in God) is a faulty way of asserting belief; but because their religion requires it, they are forced to use it but don't want to be the only one in a debate to have to use such a faulty system of belief; so they try to justify saying we use it too? If that is not the reason, maybe someone can explain why sooo much effort is used in accusing us of using faith; cause I just don't get it!

It could also be that the next step is since atheists also use faith, why not just use faith in the exact same way that I do and convert to <insert religion here>. Then they get heaven brownie points from their god for netting another believer / contributor to the church.

But yeah, it is really weird how people who find faith to be central to their belief structure throw the word out there like it is some sort of insult. Cognitive dissonance at play, I guess.
 
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Received

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No, atheists have faith. This isn't a profound insight; atheists recoil from it because "faith" has a religious coloring, and religious people like to think of the term exclusively in this sense. There are plenty of metaphysical assumptions which take faith, including trust in the validity of science. Faith is everywhere. If you prefer, use Bertrand Russell's much cooler sounding "instinctual beliefs" if you'd like.
 
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quatona

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No, atheists have faith. This isn't a profound insight; atheists recoil from it because "faith" has a religious coloring, and religious people like to think of the term exclusively in this sense. There are plenty of metaphysical assumptions which take faith, including trust in the validity of science.
Seems like your definition leaves no space whatsoever for any epistemological approach that doesn´t require "faith".
Good job.
The question, however, remains: What prompts people to insist on false equivocations?
 
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selfinflikted

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quatona

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Now now. If you're going to make snarky comments, then maybe I can be a shrink and ask: if my silly comment was true, what does that mean to you?
Your comment was neither true nor untrue. It simply tried to establish a certain terminology. I´m just pointing out the consequences. This terminology doesn´t allow for those distinctions in discussion. This means to me that in order to be able to denote these distinctions I would have to find new words for that which I used to call "faith". As I have mentioned before, I´d suggest "superstition". Unfortunately this word has such a negative ring to it. ;)
 
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hollyda

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The Gnostics were historically bound to the idea of "secret knowledge", which is demonstrable in the gnostic gospels. The Gospel of Mary, for instance, asserts Mary (often identified as Mary Magdalene) possessed knowledge given to her by Jesus not known to the other disciples. The same goes for the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas.

The prefix of "a" to the word "gnostic" simply means "unknowable." When someone says "I am agnostic", unless they further define their personal views on agnosticism or qualify how the word applies to them, all they are saying is, "I don't think it's possible for us to know whether or not gods exist."

In the same way, theism is the belief that at least one god exists. To add the prefix "a", it is the lack of belief that a god exists. Nothing more. It does not make assertions as to the existence, rather the belief in the existence. To state "atheists claim there is no god" is a fallacious generalization. True, there are atheists who make this claim, but that does not mean their claim applies to all atheists.

Furthermore, to say to an atheist who does not make this claim that "you are not an atheist" betrays a lack of understanding working definitions and how people can personalize a certain philosophy to fit themselves. I'm sure most Christians are aware that not all Christians espouse the exact same beliefs. Even if you attend the same denomination, heck, even the same church, your personal beliefs will likely differ (however great or small) from the person sitting next to you. I would never presume to label a denomination as "unChristian."
 
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mdancin4theLord

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No, they don´t.

...but you can make the claim "there is a god"? :confused:


I beleive by faith that there is a God. I never said I could prove it.

An atheist says, there is no God. If you google atheist organizations....and you go to their main page.....they make the statement.

If a so called atheist says....there is no God but I cant prove it.......then he is agnostic.

Thig group has members.......which could be called a church, an organized group. It is a religion, it is a worldview based on FAITH.


Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are no deities.

Atheist - Definition | WordIQ.com

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com

Definitions of the term "Atheism"

Atheists say this is all there is, that which we have on earth. That we were born for no reason and we die and that is all there is. We just miraculously appeared....
They like to keep their options open however.....by not wanting to be pinned to a truth statement........there is NO GOD. Because theirs is a belief based on nothing but faith, no proof. This is the same as what any person of belief in a God believes. There can be no such thing as an atheist.......they cant prove the statement they are making.



http://www.atheistalliance.org/about-aai
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I beleive by faith that there is a God. I never said I could prove it.

An atheist says, there is no God. If you google atheist organizations....and you go to their main page.....they make the statement.

If a so called atheist says....there is no God but I cant prove it.......then he is agnostic.
He is what you call an agnostic. But the majority of self-professed atheists, as well as the majority of philosophers, would call that 'weak atheism.

Thig group has members.......which could be called a church, an organized group. It is a religion, it is a worldview based on FAITH.
Except, it's not. There is no organised group. Where, exactly, is it?

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist." - The 'narrow' sense corresponds to 'strong' atheism, and the general sense encompasses both 'strong' and 'weak' atheism - exactly as we've all been telling you.

"Atheism is the condition of being without theistic beliefs and alternatively the disbelief in the existence of deities." - exactly the same as what we've been saying, and contrary to what you've been saying. It's simply lacking theistic belief.

"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." - A person who denies or disbelieves. The two stances that are encompassed by the term 'atheism', exactly as we've been saying.

"Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine." - Again, exactly as we've been saying.

"Many, perhaps most, Atheists simply have no belief about deity. For them, Atheism is not disbelief in a deity or deities; it is simply a lack of belief in any of them." - Exactly as we've been saying.

Atheists say this is all there is, that which we have on earth. That we were born for no reason and we die and that is all there is. We just miraculously appeared....
Atheists generally share a scepticism of the supernatural, seeing no good reason to attribute grandiose purpose or existential whining on the universe at large. And as for the origins of life, there's nothing miraculous about it (peruse Google Scholar if you're interested).

They like to keep their options open however.....by not wanting to be pinned to a truth statement........there is NO GOD. Because theirs is a belief based on nothing but faith, no proof. This is the same as what any person of belief in a God believes. There can be no such thing as an atheist.......they cant prove the statement they are making.
And neither do they make that statement. The vast majority of atheists, as well as major dictionaries, encyclopaedias, and philosophers, as well as government census takers, define 'atheism' as a lack of belief in deities. No more, no less.

If your personal definition of 'atheism' is 'Someone who says "There is no God"', then I am not an atheist. By that definition, virtually all self-professed atheists aren't, in fact, atheists.

The fallacy you're committing is called the equivocation fallacy. You look at organisations that proclaim to champion atheism and which are populated by atheists - but you ignore their own statements as to what they mean by 'atheism', and instead shove your own definition in its place. That is a fallacy.
 
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hollyda

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You might wanna check the links you cite before you cite them.


The first sentence of this article ACTUALLY says this:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities

In a narrower sense, not a broader sense. Or, as I said:

To state "atheists claim there is no god" is a fallacious generalization. True, there are atheists who make this claim, but that does not mean their claim applies to all atheists.



This says: Atheism is the condition of being without theistic beliefs and alternatively the disbelief in the existence of deities

Again, you're not finding a definition of atheist as saying "there is no God", rather "no belief in God."


a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.



From that exact website, I found this:

Some background information about "Atheist"

Syllabication: a·the·ist
Pronunciation: &#257;'th&#275;-&#297;st
Etymology: Atheist originated in two Greek roots:
"A" which means "without" or "not"
"Theos" which means "deity"


The above is a specific group of atheists. Would you say all Baptists are actually Methodists?

I'm sensing you don't understand how parts of a definition do not equate a whole definition.
 
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quatona

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I beleive by faith that there is a God. I never said I could prove it.
And how did you arrive at the conclusion that an atheist would have to prove the non-existence of gods, while a theist wouldn´t?

An atheist says, there is no God.
No, that´s inaccurate. Most atheists don´t.
If you google atheist organizations....and you go to their main page.....they make the statement.
I can find internet pages where Christians postulate white supremacy. Does that mean that that´s the definition of "Christian"?

If a so called atheist says....there is no God but I cant prove it.......then he is agnostic.
Well, everyone is free to invent their own terminology.

Thig group has members.......which could be called a church, an organized group.
Ah, so every organized group is a church now? Your terminology gets ever more fascinating.
It is a religion, it is a worldview based on FAITH.
Faith in what?



Atheists say this is all there is, that which we have on earth. That we were born for no reason and we die and that is all there is. We just miraculously appeared....
They like to keep their options open however.....by not wanting to be pinned to a truth statement........there is NO GOD. Because theirs is a belief based on nothing but faith, no proof. This is the same as what any person of belief in a God believes. There can be no such thing as an atheist.......they cant prove the statement they are making.



Atheist Alliance International - About AAI
hollyda thankfully has already covered the problems with your links.
You know what? Just try to talk to self-professing atheists, and you will learn that the majority doesn´t fit your description.
If you want to talk to and about an atheist of the sort you are looking for just try to find them here.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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lollllllll

Hey, it's 5pm somewhere in the world, eh?

I used to have a coworker that would spout that off at times other than the top of the hour. I'd have to yell at him "NO, NOWHERE in the world is it 5PM right now!". I'm pretty sure he knew it drove me crazy.
 
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Simply_Amazing

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My two cents:

The majority of self described atheists describe their belief as something like: "We don't have enough evidence to conclude that there is a God."

The reasoning is as follows:

When you hear a claim that hasn't met it's burden of proof, you disbelieve it and don't assimilate it into your worldview. The default worldview is one without God. This is because your worldview doesn't start off with things existing, it starts off with them not existing. This isn't changed until you use your senses or reason to establish the thing exists, directly or indirectly.

Under the definition presented (in the dissenting opinion) most atheists are agnostics. That being said, the definition is wrong, as shown in hollyda's post.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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He is what you call an agnostic. But the majority of self-professed atheists, as well as the majority of philosophers, would call that 'weak atheism.


Except, it's not. There is no organised group. Where, exactly, is it?


"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist." - The 'narrow' sense corresponds to 'strong' atheism, and the general sense encompasses both 'strong' and 'weak' atheism - exactly as we've all been telling you.


"Atheism is the condition of being without theistic beliefs and alternatively the disbelief in the existence of deities." - exactly the same as what we've been saying, and contrary to what you've been saying. It's simply lacking theistic belief.


"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." - A person who denies or disbelieves. The two stances that are encompassed by the term 'atheism', exactly as we've been saying.

"Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine." - Again, exactly as we've been saying.


"Many, perhaps most, Atheists simply have no belief about deity. For them, Atheism is not disbelief in a deity or deities; it is simply a lack of belief in any of them." - Exactly as we've been saying.


Atheists generally share a scepticism of the supernatural, seeing no good reason to attribute grandiose purpose or existential whining on the universe at large. And as for the origins of life, there's nothing miraculous about it (peruse Google Scholar if you're interested).


And neither do they make that statement. The vast majority of atheists, as well as major dictionaries, encyclopaedias, and philosophers, as well as government census takers, define 'atheism' as a lack of belief in deities. No more, no less.

If your personal definition of 'atheism' is 'Someone who says "There is no God"', then I am not an atheist. By that definition, virtually all self-professed atheists aren't, in fact, atheists.

The fallacy you're committing is called the equivocation fallacy. You look at organisations that proclaim to champion atheism and which are populated by atheists - but you ignore their own statements as to what they mean by 'atheism', and instead shove your own definition in its place. That is a fallacy.


The fact is you can belong to an organization and not even enter a building where they meet. And many atheist are organize and meet online and also in person. They also spread their worldview in many ways.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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My two cents:

The majority of self described atheists describe their belief as something like: "We don't have enough evidence to conclude that there is a God."

The reasoning is as follows:

When you hear a claim that hasn't met it's burden of proof, you disbelieve it and don't assimilate it into your worldview. The default worldview is one without God. This is because your worldview doesn't start off with things existing, it starts off with them not existing. This isn't changed until you use your senses or reason to establish the thing exists, directly or indirectly.

Under the definition presented (in the dissenting opinion) most atheists are agnostics. That being said, the definition is wrong, as shown in hollyda's post.

If atheists describe themselves in this way.......then tell me what the difference is between that and agnostic belief.

And I don't understand this weak half weak, half strong, strong .........classification system for atheism. Its not that hard to identify what you beleive. You either beleive there is a God or you don't. No one can prove there is no God....so the best anyone can is that they are an agnostic...they just don't think so. All beliefs are based on faith.
 
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Exiledoomsayer

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If atheists describe themselves in this way.......then tell me what the difference is between that and agnostic belief.
To start with, there are also agnostic theists. So clearly using the term agnostic by itself does not tell you anything about what that person may or may not believe, It only tells you their stance on knowledge of the subject.

Actually the link you posted to the wikipedia article should be a great aid in answering this question for you, I suggest looking it up there it should explain quite well and if you have further questions I'm sure everyone here would be happy to help.

And I don't understand this weak half weak, half strong, strong .........classification system for atheism. Its not that hard to identify what you beleive.
It's fairly simple try to think of it like mentioning where you live.
USA (Atheist, does not hold the claim 'god exists')
Texas (Strong, Holds the claim 'god does not exist') / New york (Weak, does not hold the claim 'god does not exist')
A texan and a new yorker are both from the USA (They are both Atheists) but they are from different states (They differ on the second claim.)

Does that help put it into perspective?
 
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