Life / Figure Drawing

JCFantasy23

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Go for it. Many of the great artists were Christians and they painted nudes. We live in a time where the human body is being disfigured and dishonoured by excessive prudery on one hand and by excessive exploitation on the other. The misunderstanding of some scriptures results in a failure to present a robust account of our humanity, including our bodies, to a society that needs better foundations for living.

John
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Pretty much. most artists when doing nudes don't consider it sexual or indecent.
 
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Rev.Ross

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Mrs. K,
I think you are doing a Christian service to pose nude for artists and those aspiring to be artists. As a retired medical scientist, I have seen a lot of nudity in the medical setting and it taught me that the human body is pure and not evil. Nudity is not inappropriate content.
You are a brave woman to share your body like that. I think the proper place to do this is in the church building, as that is where people meet and not just for worship. It is a sanctuary from the world and a place of service. Your service is to pose nude for others so they can learn the beauty of the human form.
Blessings to you, Rev. Ross
 
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LilLamb219

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As an artist, I appreciated all the models who posed at my art school! NOTHING was sexual about it at all. They had a private dressing room, disrobed discreetly upon climbing the stage and worked out the poses that were needed in a professional manner. They never hit on the students and the students treated them with respect.

Thank you for allowing artists to learn the human form. My art teacher once said that if you can draw the human body, you can draw anything! So true :)
 
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Rev.Ross

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I highly respect Christian artists who draw the human form nude, either male or female. There is nothing inappropriate contentographic about this in any way. We are indebted to the great artists of history with their paintings and sculptors of the naked human form.
Thanks be to God, Rev. Ross
 
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Hospes

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However it appears that my church doesn’t agree that I should be doing it or even running the class.
Are you submitting to your church leadership as the scriptures command? Naked or clothed, disobedience to God is never right.
 
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MizuPsi

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Philothei said:
Are there parishioners that the would be scandalized? Remember a Christian is not to make his brother stumble...Would there be people who would be scandalized? Also is this for the "glory of God"???

I mean we can afford to have no "art lessons" if that is not "profitable" I think the evangelist puts it in the right perspective here for us.

I don't mean to single out Miss Philothei with this, as there have been a number who have said basically the same thing. While Paul does say "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble." in 1 Corinthians 8:13, he also Admonishes Peter and the other Jews for refusing to eat with the Gentiles. To a Jew, eating with a Gentile was a stumbling block. Many consider Peter to be the Leader of the Church. Yet Paul rebukes him for doing what is wrong.

Let me ask a question. If you thought that wearing shorts might cause someone to lust, do you stop wearing shorts? From what you say, you should. What about a woman wearing pants? 150 years ago, it was indecent. 200 years ago, it would get a woman in serious trouble. Seeing an ankle exposed was a real treat. It was something considered sexual. And yet, as pants grew into favour, and later shorts, and now swimsuits, you accept them. You wear them. Though seeing the shape of your body through clothes might cause someone to lust after you, you do not put on full skirts, or cover your neck. Why not? If what you say is the right thing, then do it.

Either we have to realise something is wrong, or we have to realise there is nothing wrong with it. Why does the Church follow behind modern culture? Are we supposed to be eating the scraps thrown to us?

Here is another example. Do you pray out loud? What if there is a chance it might hurt someone's conscience? The Lord Jesus said "But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." in Matthew 6:6. You might realise there is nothing wrong with praying out loud, but if one of our Brothers does not, are you to stop? Praying with others builds up the body, so how can we?

Finally, we come to Mrs. Koshka's example. Is there anything wrong with nude modelling? No. The nudity debate rests on one thing: Intent. If there is a sexual atmosphere, then there is a problem if it is not solely with your husband. If there is not, then you are as God made you. He created man and woman in the image of God. They were naked (arummim), and he saw that it was good (Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 2:25).
Now, Adam and Eve were the only ones in the garden, and they were man and wife. If they were wrong for being nude in the garden with their spouses, then we are wrong for being nude together with out spouses now. We know that isn't so, because many times the Bible mentions nudity and sex with a spouse in a very positive light. The Song of Solomon comes to mind. So if they weren't wrong in the garden by being naked with eachother, then there was something else that they saw.
When Adam and Eve broke the one commandment of the Lord, they knew that they were now naked (eirummim. Different word). We do the same thing in English. We say a bare butt, and we say I laid my heart bare. In English, they are the same word. Naked and Naked, Bare and Bare. It seems that in Hebrew they are slightly different. More like Nude and Naked. They knew the shame of what they had done, and they could not hide from God, though they still tried.
Note: the Hebrew word used for the 'clothing' that Adam and Eve made for themselves (not by God) was chagorot or a girdle. A belt. So even if they were clothing themselves because it was wrong (as was shown earlier to not be the case), Eve would still have been topless.

In many cases, God has led and told people to go without their clothes:
In 1 Samuel 18:3-4
"Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as himself (one of the great commandments of Jesus). Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt (chagorov, similar to the belt worn by Adam and Eve).

In 1 Samuel 19:24:
"And he too stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay naked all that day and all that night. Thus it is said, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”"
This was after the Spirit of God came upon Saul. The Holy Spirit does not ever lead us to do something that is against God's word, will, or nature.

In Isaiah 20:2:
"at that time the Lord spoke by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, “Go, and loose the sackcloth from your waist and take off your sandals from your feet,” and he did so, walking naked and barefoot."
Isaiah went completely naked in public for three years. God does not tell us to do things that are wrong.

Micah 1:8:
"Because of this I will weep and wail; I will go about barefoot and naked"
Micah, like Isaiah, prophesied and preached in God's Holy Name without any clothes in the sight of both men and women. The Prophets were still under the Law, and so what Paul said: ""All things are lawful", but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful", but not all things build up" did not apply to them. If it was not lawful, they would have been breaking God's law.
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The next question is: Can nudity build up our fellow brothers and sisters? I think so. There are so many accounts of Men and Women both young and old with terrible Body Image issues. Anorexia and other eating disorders are not uncommon. Even more common are people who can't stand the way they look. They are too fat, too skinny, to pale, too dark, their hair is too straight, to curly, to dark, to light, their eyes are too big, too small, too close together, too far apart, too blue, too green, not blue enough, not green enough, and every dissatisfaction possible. They try their hardest to change the way they look because they don't think they are enough. When you see others without their clothes, it doesn't take long to truly know that bodies aren't "perfect". So few actually meet the standard of 'beauty' that society holds, and yet everyone feels alone with their insecurities. It doesn't take long to accept yourself the way God made you when you can see the way God made others. That is the story of almost every nudist that used to be insecure about their bodies, as well, many figure models.
 
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Rev.Ross

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Great post, you explained things very well. Our English language is so poor at language. In the OT, one word can can different meaning. Naked can be totally naked, spiritually naked before God, or having sex, and a few other meanings.
Most of the naturists I have spoken with are agreed-they are not hung up on the outer form of the body-what it looks like. It does not matter, as all are welcome and accepted. From what I understand in Genesis, what God gave them was kind of a loin cloth attached to a belt. Eve was still bare on top. Some indigenous societies still dress like this for protecting the genitals. I saw a film called END OF THE SPEAR, about the missionary martyrs in Ecuador years ago who were mistakenly murdered by a tribe. The wives were devastated, but a couple stayed and raised their children there. The Indians were basically nude, and the women missionaries were wise enough not to change that. They had sons who grew up with all of this nudity, and thought nothing of it. They were shocked when they came back to the States, and found that people actually wore clothes and that women's breasts were covered. None of them reported feelings of lust, as they were not taught by their mothers to consider the naked human body as evil.
Thanks,Rev.Ross
 
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Rev.Ross

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Nude art classes are fine for the Christian, and I think Christians can be nude art models. This is done in a matter of fact way, and is not done in an erotic way. It is true that some person could have a sinful thought, but the class nor the nude model is not responsible for the thoughts of another person. That is on them If they can't properly participate they are free to leave. This fall I want to take a really good photo class which includes non-erotic nudes, as I am a lousy artist, but fairly good with a camera. Thanks,Rev.Ross
 
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Johnnz

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The weaker brother scriptures are applied far too readily. They occur in Romans and 1 Corinthians.

In both churches Paul was addressing small groups of people who met together regularly around Jesus and a shared meal. The new community had for members some Jewish converts with a background in Torah, and Gentile believers with very different backgrounds. Specific issues of sacred days (Sabbath for Jews, other special days for Gentiles), food (kosher for Jews, food offered to idols (Gentiles and Jews) and circumcision were the principle areas of division.

Paul's advice was, when meeting and eating together in the name of Jesus, each person must consider the other and not impose their standards onto someone who could not accept it comfortably and with conviction. In particular the strong (i.e. the socially superior) should not act inconsiderately against the lower status members (i.e. the weak).

Thus we should not attempt to apply this verse beyond its biblical context. In today's society it would mean not making any contentious and significant issue a matter of division, with special responsibility for the influential not to insist that all must follow them. Nor should any limitation be seen as 'in perpetuity'. The weak are expected to grow into maturity, not remain weak.

On the subject of this topic arriving at church naked because you saw no sin with nudity would be offensive for too many in our society. But what you do as an individual apart from your times together with other Christians is up to you and your conscience. You should feel free to be a nude model, to become a naturist, to go to a free beach, to be naked in your own home without fear of rejection. Those who oppose that should be prepared to lovingly and unbiasedly discuss each other's views with respect and without any ultimatum for one to fully agree with the other on that matter.

John
NZ
 
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Rev.Ross

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I don't plan to show up nude at our local church. That would be way too much for many reasons. Outside of that I am nude a lot in my house and late at night on the back porch. There is a lot of space between houses. I plan to make a few naturists trips, and well as improving my photography by taking a nude photo class. This is just what I will do outside of church on my own. If someone I know wants to be baptized in the nude, I will perform that baptism for them, but not in a local church building of course.
We need to be wise about this, and avoid legal and cultural difficulties.
God bless you, Rev.Ross
 
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LoricaLady

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Someone above said that descriptions of nudity are in the Bible. Uh, yeal, verbal and non explicit descriptions. (Like anyone wouldn't know the huge difference between that and a visual, explicit nude. Let's get real.) Yes, Adam & Eve were made nude, but after the fall the first thing that YHWH did was to clothe them! It's not about what this writer or that write said, or how we think and feel, it's about what HE said if we truly want to be His followers. His Word tell us not to be naked except with our spouses.

Those students who progressed from amature work to more expert work with a live model would have progressed w/o one. I have never drawn anyone from the nude yet can make totally realistic drawings of the human figure - though mine always have at least a bathing suit on. If someone wants to be precise in understanding the human body, a bikini or speedos would get the idea across. We all know, and if we are artists we would have no trouble drawing from memory, what is under those outfits.

Yeal, I know those nudes in museums are highly praised by the world. The world always goes counter to the Word, and lots of times they like to tack the word "Christian" on what they doing while totally going against the source,i.e. the Bible. I call those "great" museum "Christian" art works inappropriate contentography for the rich and royal.

Another thing, just because someone has a pen and sketch book that doesn't mean the person looses normal hormonal reactions to the sight of a naked person. And some of those people in the class may be married, too.

Praying for you to have wisdom to always walk the Word's way,not the world's way.
 
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LoricaLady

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There is some inadequate understanding of both the Genesis story and the relationship between Creation and culture. Look at the writings of Francis Schaeffer for some very good Christian perspectives on these issues.

John
NZ

I don't need Francis Schaeffer's interpretation of Scriptures because of your presumption that my understanding is "inadequate". I prefer to go to the Source and I certainly don't think there is anything difficult to understand about Genesis and the topic of nudity in the Garden and after the fall. Scriptures say "You need that no man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will teach you." How often, how historically, have people offered up their "interpretations" of Scriptures in order to justify their viewpoints and try to lead people more into line with the world's way of looking at things.
 
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Johnnz

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I don't need Francis Schaeffer's interpretation of Scriptures because of your presumption that my understanding is "inadequate". I prefer to go to the Source and I certainly don't think there is anything difficult to understand about Genesis and the topic of nudity in the Garden and after the fall. Scriptures say "You need that no man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will teach you." How often, how historically, have people offered up their "interpretations" of Scriptures in order to justify their viewpoints and try to lead people more into line with the world's way of looking at things.

Why are your interpretations more accurate than a well recognised Christian scholar's are who also is committed to taking the Bible as the baseline for his beliefs?

Just a few questions.

a) Is the story about clothing or something far more significant?
b) What are some of the meanings of 'naked' in Scripture - there are actually several.
c) Is clothing always literal in Scripture or can it have some symbolic meanings too?
d) Opened eyes - that expression, and it's opposite. blindness, not seeing, occurs several times in Scripture. It's worth a good study.
e) Since Adam and Eve were the only couple present doesn't the story teach about it being wrong for a married couple to see each other naked?

Bless you
John
NZ
 
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LoricaLady

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I don't want to get into endless debates about this. If you think its okey dokey with YHWH to have naked women standing around in front of men, some of them doubtless married, nothing I say will make any difference to you.

But I'll ask you a rhetorical Q in return. Why is a "well known Christian scholar" assumed, by you, to understand Scriptures any better than anyone else? "Well known Christian scholars" are keeping bookstores well supplied with their often totally conflicting "interpretations" of Scriptures. You pick and choose the ones you want. Just don't expect everyone else to assume your choices are the ultimate in wisdom.

I agree with what I already posted above, "You need that no man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will teach you." He starts out with the Word, and I think it's pretty clear on this topic. If you want to debate it endlessly, as I said, sorry I'm not going to do it. I do have better things to do with my time. Byeee!
 
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Johnnz

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I don't want to get into endless debates about this. If you think its okey dokey with YHWH to have naked women standing around in front of men, some of them doubtless married, nothing I say will make any difference to you.

I'm sure it won't make any difference to you. But I prefer to be informed by biblical precepts, not cultural assumptions. It's arrogant to infer or assume that all Christian nudists are some kind of perverted or depraved sinners.

But I'll ask you a rhetorical Q in return. Why is a "well known Christian scholar" assumed, by you, to understand Scriptures any better than anyone else? "Well known Christian scholars" are keeping bookstores well supplied with their often totally conflicting "interpretations" of Scriptures. You pick and choose the ones you want. Just don't expect everyone else to assume your choices are the ultimate in wisdom.

I can ask the same rhetorical question to you "Why do you believe a scholar you have never read has nothing to say of value to you?"

I agree with what I already posted above, "You need that no man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will teach you." He starts out with the Word, and I think it's pretty clear on this topic. If you want to debate it endlessly, as I said, sorry I'm not going to do it. I do have better things to do with my time. Byeee!

That verse must be understood from a broader perspective of Scripture. God gifts teachers for the building up of His family. Paul took care to ensure good teachers were set up and recognised in the churches he wrote to. Good writers fulfill a teaching gift.

Also, our extreme individualism is a modern idol, quite at variance with biblical teaching.


John
NZ
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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do you believe that God is leading you to pose nude in order to edify or build up others in their faith in God (1Cor 14:26)?

do you know of any scriptures that would confirm that posing nude is God's direction for you, or are you deciding in your own mind that this is what God wants you to do, or that you don't need to seek God's direction about this?

Rom 8:13-14 KJV
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

if you are led by your own intellect, you are not led by God. if you are led by God, there will be scripture that either specifically or generally confirms that this is His leading for you.
 
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