ebia

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Tigg said:
Not the one and only God. Not the Christian God. And to imply that it does is not true.
Arabic and Malaysian Catholics refer to YHWH as Allah. Vatican documents, papal comments by Paul VI and John Paul II, NOSTRA AETATE, Lumen Gentium (Vatican II Council) and Francis Cardinal Arinze all recognise that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God.

If you don't agree with that you've got a major problem with the teaching office of the Catholic Church.
 
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Rochir

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I would think after the many years in CF you would not be teaching and proselytizing.

This is Oneness or Unitarian.

Yes, it is. I appologogize. Please delete my post. I don't wanna cause trouble!
 
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WarriorAngel

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The right hand aisle in the cafeteria again?

Sorry for the mistaken understanding on what is ecumenical and what is teaching.
Teaching regards Christ/God and His Church.
Ecumenical teaches tolerance and love of 'OTHER' faiths not in keeping with the Catholic doctrines and truths.

Do you think the CC professes Islam?

Not the one and only God. Not the Christian God. And to imply that it does is not true.

They deny Christ is God.

If anyone would watch my previous posts on how the Muslims were treated who became Christian - it would show i am right.

Real stories of conversion [Thanks be to God] and the first guy said he never felt peace in Islam...nor love for others.
His own family tried to kill him and beat him til he passed out because he accepted Christ as God.

SO they do not profess Jesus is God, therefore their God is not Triune.

I dont care who tells me i must accept a monotheistic - non Triune God, i refuse.

Its their mistaken belief that God has no Son and that Christ did not die for our sins and that God put the face of Jesus on Judas so he would die and that Jesus escaped to India....
Its just not true.

I am not the one in error. I profess the Catholic Creed.
 
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ebia

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WarriorAngel said:
Sorry for the mistaken understanding on what is ecumenical and what is teaching.
Teaching regards Christ/God and His Church.
Ecumenical teaches tolerance and love of 'OTHER' faiths not in keeping with the Catholic doctrines and truths.

Do you think the CC professes Islam?
does the Catholic Church profess Islam? No.

Does it teach a much more positive relationship with Islam than you display here? Definitely

Obedience to the church involves more than intellectually assenting to statements about God - though there is even that (that Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God).



I am not the one in error. I profess the Catholic Creed.
So you're saying that you aren't in error but Vatican II, JPII, Paul VI and Cardinal Arinze are? That they don't profess the Catholic Creeds?

Do I need to point out that Arinze is Cardinal Archbishop from a country with a massive Muslim population and tensions as high as just about anywhere?

I stand by my previous assessment.
 
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WarriorAngel

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does the Catholic Church profess Islam? No.

Does it teach a much more positive relationship with Islam than you display here? Definitely

Obedience to the church involves more than intellectually assenting to statements about God - though there is even that (that Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God).




So you're saying that you aren't in error but Vatican II, JPII, Paul VI and Cardinal Arinze are? That they don't profess the Catholic Creeds?

Do I need to point out that Arinze is Cardinal Archbishop from a country with a massive Muslim population and tensions as high as just about anywhere?

Did you want salad or vegetables?


The Muslims proclaim they believe in one god.

The thing is this, [and i ask you stop attacking me and not the subject because i have been very patient as of yet], anyway the Jews believed in God - whether they understood God wasnt the question. For at their time in history and the setting up of religion - God did not send out His Spirit to teach them all truth.
Only to keep His word and ensure the establishment of heirarchy and a priesthood and of a foreshadowing of His Church - WHICH would be the world's guide.

The Holy Spirit taught them - the Church - what Christ meant. Their eyes were opened upon His ordaining them via the HS.

Muhammad came and denied the Trinity.
He changed the laws of Christ, removed the Trinity and Christ and made Him a prophet that would LEAD Muhammad [himself] in.


What the Church is teaching - that the Muslims BELIEVE they are worshiping the same God. They do believe they are. And ergo, in their hearts they are. Er - they believe they are worshiping One God i should say. They think we are in error and Jesus was only a Prophet.

SO the Church in an Ecumenical stance - agree that they believe they worship the same God.
The Church is the rock of the Lord Who He Himself is the cornerstone... and if she takes her key to unlock something, no man can shut. She opens the door for the 'sake' of the Muslims. That i understand. I understand she has embraced all ppl for the sake of their sanctification in hopes for salvation.

In reality tho - the Church embraces all of humanity for their own sake. THIS does not mean Catholics should proclaim there is a sameness. Except that in the hearts of the Muslims there is. [well stretching it since they deny Christ is God]

Literally, there is no way otherwise to agree. Someone has to be in error regarding Jesus.

And unless or until you fully comprehend what Islam teaches, your conundrum is to try to fit the two together.

I just explained how and why the Church is saying what it says... they do not deny Christ. They do not embrace the teachings of Islam because it denies Christ and blasphemes the HS. They say what they say because they believe the hearts of the Muslims [tho imperfect] is seeking God.

I quoted that right from the Catechism.

So as not to allow confusion what the Church is doing and why - they put it in the Catechism.
 
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WarriorAngel

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And we understand the catechism goes on to say:


843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

This is the catechism.

The Church knows God - they were shown God to lead all ppl.
So long as the Muslims believe IN the God of Abraham - they are imperfectly trying to stay the same course.

The Church understands they are in the shadows of truth by ACCEPTING the God of Abraham who was their father.

But they are in error.

Though they are in error the Church opened the doors - just as they do ecumenically to all to obtain in hope salvation for their errors due to the principle of invincible ignorance. ONLY if they do not understand anything about Christ. This is done solely in charity and not in profession of actual and true doctrine.

This must be understood.




844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
 
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ivebeenshown

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Oh for the love of... this is way more difficult than it needs to be.

Nobody in this thread is saying Muslims have the correct theology, or that they are not heretics.

Nobody in this thread is saying that there is salvation outside of Christ.


The truth is that the Church says Muslims adore the one God together with us. That is, us Catholics and those Muslims worship the SAME God. "and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Yes, they have the wrong ideas about this one God. But no, they are not worshiping another God.

I am just so sick of people saying "Allah isn't God" out of ignorance of the Arabic language and what the Church teaches.

So WarriorAngel, will you please take a closer look and realize the things I highlighted in red? Nobody is disagreeing that there is no salvation outside of Christ or that the Muslims have incorrect theology.
 
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benedictaoo

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I think I can count on one hand the number of Arabic persons I've met, so I really have no idea how "they" feel about "us."

I live in a Muslim neighborhood. Its kinda funny becuase I've lived here for about 7 years now and I had no idea it was a Muslim neighborhood. There is a Mosque near by so I guess that's why many choose this subdivision.

On Friday afternoon the mosque is packed and the over flow parks across the street at the "Good Sheppard Baptist Church". lol. I think that's funny.

A few month ago there was a Arab looking man outside this house that had been for sale, so I asked my son is that another Muslim family moving in? and he says to me, "Mom, we live in a Muslim neighborhood, where you been at?" and I could not believe how I didn't notice.

Anyway, other than the contact I had with the Muslim mother that is across the street, who the dad ran her off, something about Islamic law/divorcing the woman and she just vanished... anyway, she was really really nice.

The other Muslim women keep to themselves. I think "they" are scared of "us" or "they" are not allowed to fraternize with "us". Don't know which it is.

The mother who was ran off did and I guess that's why she was ran off... she was the only one who didn't wear the garb if that has anything to do with it.
 
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benedictaoo

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Arabic and Malaysian Catholics refer to YHWH as Allah. Vatican documents, papal comments by Paul VI and John Paul II, NOSTRA AETATE, Lumen Gentium (Vatican II Council) and Francis Cardinal Arinze all recognise that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God.

If you don't agree with that you've got a major problem with the teaching office of the Catholic Church.

:thumbsup:
 
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Sorry for the mistaken understanding on what is ecumenical and what is teaching.
Teaching regards Christ/God and His Church.
Ecumenical teaches tolerance and love of 'OTHER' faiths not in keeping with the Catholic doctrines and truths.

Do you think the CC professes Islam?

No, but the Catholic Church does recognize in its councils, letters, and CCC that the God they believe in is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Its not a pagan god and that's the point. YOU is who takes it further.

You go from A all the way to Z in assumptions, that to recognize its the same God as the Jews, as the Christians, you equate that with professing Islam.

Its the same God but they do not know Him the same... and hey- neither do the Jews.

Its only us who know Him as Christ.

Its up to us to evangelize the world and JP11 recognized that we aren't going to convince them or the Jews, or any pagan as long as we act in a way contrary to the gospel and actually thinking that Christians did no wrong over the course of the last 2000 years.

I like your Christ- but I do not like your Christians.

I really think God is having all see that we have not been promoting the right image of Christ and He wants us to learn who He is before we act like we can teach someone else who He is.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Oh for the love of... this is way more difficult than it needs to be.

Nobody in this thread is saying Muslims have the correct theology, or that they are not heretics.

Nobody in this thread is saying that there is salvation outside of Christ.


The truth is that the Church says Muslims adore the one God together with us. That is, us Catholics and those Muslims worship the SAME God. "and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Yes, they have the wrong ideas about this one God. But no, they are not worshiping another God.

I am just so sick of people saying "Allah isn't God" out of ignorance of the Arabic language and what the Church teaches.

So WarriorAngel, will you please take a closer look and realize the things I highlighted in red? Nobody is disagreeing that there is no salvation outside of Christ or that the Muslims have incorrect theology.

Actually being called a xenophobic and cafeteria Catholic is in fact saying i am wrong - and i posted precisely the Church's teaching.
And being i am wrong on what the Church teaches - does in fact suggest there is a problem in the transmission.



Correct!

Why are people attacking Muslims (who believe in the same God as Muslims and Christians) and not Jews?

I am against what their religion teaches and professes.
Sharia Law is the system they live - when their numbers increase. That is part of their 'way of life' because it is actually more than just religion, it is a system - a governing tool.

Dhimmi, jihad, sharia are all part of their way of life. None of which is what Christ taught.

Rochir's got a point.

We have been propagandized since world war 11. We have been programed to hate Arabs.

Yah because i state what they profess and way of life i am mean spiritied and wrong. Yah, that works for me.

Others have said i hate, show me where i have.

I suggested prayer... which is truly how to love one's enemies. And make no mistake, as a Christian we are their enemy and we have 3 choices [when and if an area becomes saturated in a nation by their laws] we can be killed, surrender to Islam or become a dhimmi with no rights and be of servitude. The Jews and pagans share our spot in life according to them... so whatever... i am the bad guy because 'i know' how things operate.

Regardless of what God they hope to worship - and even imperfectly - i not one time have said to hate anyone since it goes against my way of life in Christ.



:eek: How is it posible that in United States all this kind of things can happen?

Apathy. Ignorance to reality.

No, but the Catholic Church does recognize in its councils, letters, and CCC that the God they believe in is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
Proving you didnt read my post.

I said they [hope to] believe in the same God as the God of Abraham, and do so imperfectly.
Which is what the Church states.
SO how am i wrong exactly?
Its not a pagan god and that's the point. YOU is who takes it further.
Yah, could you cite me saying that?
You go from A all the way to Z in assumptions, that to recognize its the same God as the Jews, as the Christians, you equate that with professing Islam.
Really?

So you THINK personally Chrislam is feasible?

Should we pull out both the Koran and Bible at Church and quote them for services [Mass]?

I am not assuming this is your stance, rather unlike others, i am asking.
Its the same God but they do not know Him the same... and hey- neither do the Jews.

Its only us who know Him as Christ.

Its up to us to evangelize the world and JP11 recognized that we aren't going to convince them or the Jews, or any pagan as long as we act in a way contrary to the gospel and actually thinking that Christians did no wrong over the course of the last 2000 years.

I like your Christ- but I do not like your Christians.

I really think God is having all see that we have not been promoting the right image of Christ and He wants us to learn who He is before we act like we can teach someone else who He is.

:crossrc: Oy ve.

My posts are out there. Be sure to read them.
 
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WarriorAngel

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When is this thread going to go back on topic?

Chrislam is a heresy that is now entering some American Protestant sects.
I do not know how they are going to justify Jesus being God and not being the Son of God or God in their services.

It will be interesting.
 
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When is this thread going to go back on topic?

Chrislam is a heresy that is now entering some American Protestant sects.
I do not know how they are going to justify Jesus being God and not being the Son of God or God in their services.

It will be interesting.

I see that the congregations that are more open to this apostasy are Episcopalians, Aren't they the ones who accepted first, the contraception, women in to clergy, Gay marriage, gay clergy?

They just lost their compass.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I see that the congregations that are more open to this apostasy are Episcopalians, Aren't they the ones who accepted first, the contraception, women in to clergy, Gay marriage, gay clergy?

They just lost their compass.

I cant say for 100%, but i do believe they have been the ones who allowed much of the evils of the worlds demands to come in.
 
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