Do we have free-will?

itisdeliciouscake

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This saying is opaque to me. Please clarify.

I would guess that he's implying that if we didn't have free-will we never would have sinned in the first place (or Adam wouldn't've sinned). If that were the case then we would have no need to be saved.
 
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grasping the after wind

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We, man, are totally to blame for our sins and trespasses. We have all sinned, and we all deserve to suffer the consequences for our sins. God, desiring to show His great love and mercy, saved some for salvation. He did what man NEVER could.

If our sin is no more our choice than the beating of our heart is our choice why do we deserve to suffer the consequences of that sin? One who has no free will can not be made responsible for his actions. If I have no choice but to sin how can I be assigned responsibility for that sin. I did not choose to sin why am I to blame? If I refrain from sin because I have no choice but to refrain from sinning I cannot take credit either. Only one who has the power of choice can be held responsible for their actions. Blame or credit belongs only to those that are free to act either piously or impiously. Either we can choose whether we sin or we are innocent by means of incompetence.
 
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bling

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Would it matter if you choose God or not? Your chioce does not effect God down he road. Your free will does not effect God's decision.

God is doing all He can to help you make the right free will decision concerning accepting of His help. Our decisions to sin only negatively effects us if we do not accept God's forgiveness of these sins. God has already decided to save those that accept His help, so in that way our decision does not effect God's decision.
 
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Optimax

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Man(you) has free will to make choices within the boundaries that God set for Mankind.

Choosing to be born again is done by free will.

God made salvation available through Jesus and it is up to whosoever wills to receive it.

Whosoever wills not can reject it.
 
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cubinity

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Isn't it the perception of those who do not advocate free-will to say that if we have the freedom to reject being chosen by Christ, and He died for the Sin of the one He chose, then we are ssaying we have the power to render Christ's sacrifice vain? Or something like that?
 
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simonthezealot

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:wave: Let's start with a definitions of what "free" will is:

The freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.- Webster's ninth new collegiate dictionary.
I think he should also define whether he understands the difference between the compatabilist and libertarian view of free will.
 
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Noxot

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1. Some angels were destined to fall. Paul actually uses the term "elect angels".
2.The bolded part is wrong. We, man, are totally to blame for our sins and trespasses. We have all sinned, and we all deserve to suffer the consequences for our sins. God, desiring to show His great love and mercy, saved some for salvation. He did what man NEVER could.

Your knowledge on election is misguided. It is okay, most people are the same way.

Ask yourself one question, is man totally depraved? Everything else hinges on your answer of this question.

define "totally depraved".

and define "election".

and define "free-will".

also you can't tell me how to use my thought process to understand something, since I find it better to have a larger view of things rather than a doctrine not accepted by the early church fathers who are in unity with God.
 
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Noxot

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Yes there is, your sinful nature that you are born with and which separates you from God.

tell me where my sinful nature comes from. did God create me with a sinful nature?
 
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Noxot

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I would guess that he's implying that if we didn't have free-will we never would have sinned in the first place (or Adam wouldn't've sinned). If that were the case then we would have no need to be saved.

no I am not. I see that there is good and there is evil and that God hates evil but loves good.

however if God created me with no will to choose good or evil, then I would be doing His will rather it be that I did evil or good. therefore if I do evil and I have no free will, it means that God is the cause of my wickedness and not other creation and myself.

but if you do not think what i said in orange is the case then you must explain why that would not be the case.
 
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grizzlyburr

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Nope! Nah, there is a balance. Even the most ardent reformist will tell you theres a dichotomy. But basically reformed theology is just the belief that God chooses who to save, not necessarily their actions.

I guess if you wanted to go deeper you could say we have no free will simply because we're born in sin and our will is sinful and cannot be anything else.
 
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Noxot

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Nope! Nah, there is a balance. Even the most ardent reformist will tell you theres a dichotomy. But basically reformed theology is just the belief that God chooses who to save, not necessarily their actions.

I guess if you wanted to go deeper you could say we have no free will simply because we're born in sin and our will is sinful and cannot be anything else.

so when did God start picking who to save and who to burn in hell without considering the persons heart? because if we are all born in sin then why is God unfair and choose to save some sinful people but not others? the best answer I have heard is that "God does what he wants" and that answer is not said in the spirit that paul said it in, since paul said it to get people to not slander God. but now I hear people saying it to cover up their own slander against God.
 
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grizzlyburr

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so when did God start picking who to save and who to burn in hell without considering the persons heart? because if we are all born in sin then why is God unfair and choose to save some sinful people but not others? the best answer I have heard is that "God does what he wants" and that answer is not said in the spirit that paul said it in, since paul said it to get people to not slander God. but now I hear people saying it to cover up their own slander against God.


Where does the bible say you're saved by your heart? :confused: Let's keep exegetical here. You're saved by faith through Christ. Bible also says every man will proclaim himself "good."

God started choosing from the beginning of time. Do I need to post scripture?
 
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BrotherBob

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so when did God start picking who to save and who to burn in hell without considering the persons heart? because if we are all born in sin then why is God unfair and choose to save some sinful people but not others? the best answer I have heard is that "God does what he wants" and that answer is not said in the spirit that paul said it in, since paul said it to get people to not slander God. but now I hear people saying it to cover up their own slander against God.

:wave: Jeremiah 17:9 Tells us the state of man's heart: It is "DECEITFUL AND DESPERATELY WICKED." And the thoughts of his heart are "continually evil" (Genesis 6:5). The only way to remedy this is for God to give you a new heart (Eze. 36:26). Man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalms 51:5, 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). Because unregenerate man is "dead in transgressions" (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19, 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19)and does not understand the thing of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

As to the second part are you talking about Romans 12:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways or the scripture in Ephesians 1:11 Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" ? or Isaiah 46:9-10: "My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please".

Your posts indicate to me a belief in libertarian free will. Yes or no?:wave:
 
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Noxot

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Where does the bible say you're saved by your heart? :confused: Let's keep exegetical here. You're saved by faith through Christ. Bible also says every man will proclaim himself "good."

God started choosing from the beginning of time. Do I need to post scripture?

faith is only the beginning. Love is the end. do those things come from your heart or not? if they do not dwell in the heart then I wonder how people think that they are saved?

I do not proclaim to be good. my actions have shown that I am more evil than good. beginning of time? well good luck in understanding that, since we can not even comprehend how gravity works. and we can not even count how many living creatures exist.

go ahead and quote scriptures, you will have one view, I will have another and it would not be hard at all to find 6 other people with a different view from our views.
 
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Noxot

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:wave: Jeremiah 17:9 Tells us the state of man's heart: It is "DECEITFUL AND DESPERATELY WICKED." And the thoughts of his heart are "continually evil" (Genesis 6:5). The only way to remedy this is for God to give you a new heart (Eze. 36:26). Man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalms 51:5, 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). Because unregenerate man is "dead in transgressions" (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19, 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19)and does not understand the thing of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

As to the second part are you talking about Romans 12:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways or the scripture in Ephesians 1:11 Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" ? or Isaiah 46:9-10: "My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please".

Your posts indicate to me a belief in libertarian free will. Yes or no?:wave:

the funny thing is that I can quote scriptures too.

Romans 12:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways

so then God does what he pleases and His Wisdom is so utterly deep that I can easily say that you (and me and most people) do not understand fully enough the scriptures you quote and base your doctrine off of. but I guess that is why James the apostle warns us that not many of us should be teachers. but we ignore his warning even though he has much more Wisdom than we do.

I could quote all kinds of scriptures to show all kinds of false teachings. it appears that we all read into the Word of God to some degree and so our understanding of the bible is dirtied to this or that degree.


but what does "libertarian free will" mean? once I know what it means I can begin to understand if it is even possible for me to answer with a simple "yes" or "no".
 
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heymikey80

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so when did God start picking who to save and who to burn in hell without considering the persons heart?
A long time ago. Eph 1:4 "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ..."
because if we are all born in sin then why is God unfair and choose to save some sinful people but not others?
Sounds like, "Why then does he still find fault? For who resists His will?" Romans 9:19. I would think Paul's answer would suffice for being the Scriptural answer to this question.
the best answer I have heard is that "God does what he wants" and that answer is not said in the spirit that paul said it in, since paul said it to get people to not slander God.
Intriguing. It's said in response to people who are essentially asserting what's asserted in your second sentence.
but now I hear people saying it to cover up their own slander against God.
Paul said more, as Romans 9:21-24 actually says. It's not slander to repeat what God's words said as God's words.
 
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Harry3142

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The argument against free will has been lectured in college philosophy classes for at least 50 years now. And the purpose for this should give us all pause to think clearly concerning the subject.

It's called 'hard determinism'. I came face-to-face with it in the winter of 1964, when I was required to take a college philosophy class as one of my electives. Under this philosophy, we have all been 'programmed' to behave in a certain manner, including our actions, by a combination of geography, societal environment, familial environment, and genetic makeup. Whatever we have been programmed to do, or refrain from doing, we are powerless to resist. Even the idea of having a free will, although falsely perceived, is a result of that combinations of factors that I have listed.

The lecturer, a full professor at the university, went on to state that because of this programming, there can be no objective measurement of good and evil. Good is merely that which the majority of the people accept as societally correct due to their own programming, and evil is merely that which those same people have been programmed to reject as incorrect behavior. So there is no such thing as criminality. Those who act in a manner that we would call 'criminal behavior' are only carrying out their programming, and are no more to be censured than those who perform righteous acts are to be praised.

This philosophy came to a head when in 1967 a judge who had accepted it as true was responsible for sentencing a man who had beaten and raped an 8-year old girl. The total sentence that he gave the man was 6 months' probation. He explained his sentence by saying, "Prison wouldn't help him."

But as Christians we hold to the belief that all can choose whether they will accept the salvation that God offers. God puts up no roadbloacks. There is nothing preventing any of us from accepting the salvation that he offers us freely. Some do reject it, but they will be held accountable, as they could have just as easily accepted it. The bottom line is that the decision lies with us as to whether we will accept God's offer of salvation or not. God cannot make us either accept or reject his offer; that is solely our choice.
 
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heymikey80

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Well, it's very difficult to associate Reformation determinism with modern determinism. Modernism asserts that there can't be any other control outside of physical-creational forces and physical-creational nature. Modernism has rejected metaphysics.

Modernistic determinism bears much stronger parallels with atheistic Stoicism than it ever had with Reformation concepts on human nature.

On the other hand, as Christians we aren't relying on the free will of man, but on the Spirit of God. That's the Scriptural approach to all humanity. "You must be born again"
 
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katherine2001

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if free will does not exist, then there is no reason for me to need salvation.

:amen: Also, if this is the case, then it was not necessary for the Son of God to become incarnate and die on the cross either. After all, the Father had already decided who is going to be saved and who isn't. Also, evidently it doesn't matter how much you sin. You are going to be saved no matter what you do if you are one of the people that God has chosen.
 
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